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Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition

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Re: Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition 

Post#1121 » by BlacJacMac » Wed Jan 25, 2023 7:13 pm

shrink wrote:
Mann’s salary went from $2 mil to $10 mil, so he is only eligible to be traded six months after signing the extension. Mann signed his extension October 12th.

However, you might want to post on the CBA board. Terance Mann fake-trades are everywhere, including Bobby Marks. I feel like I’m missing something.


He signed it October 12th of 2021...

Mann was already under contract the next two year for a minimum salary, the second season following a team option. Crucially, the Clippers got Mann to agree to the extension beginning in 2023 rather than replacing the team-option season in 2022.

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Re: Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition 

Post#1122 » by thinktank » Wed Jan 25, 2023 7:35 pm

shrink wrote:
thinktank wrote:
shrink wrote:I think Klomp’s instincts are on the mark again



http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q95

Mann’s salary went from $2 mil to $10 mil, so he is only eligible to be traded six months after signing the extension. Mann signed his extension October 12th.

However, you might want to post on the CBA board. Terance Mann fake-trades are everywhere, including Bobby Marks. I feel like I’m missing something.


The part you quoted doesn’t mention anything about waiting 6 months.

I assume Stein knows what he’s talking about when he says teams have approached the Clippers to acquire Mann via trade.

But more importantly, nothing in your CBA quote above mentions 6 months.

EDIT: Mann’s extension doesn’t kick in until next year. Perhaps that’s why he can be traded now.


Also in Question 95

Since an extend-and-trade has greater limits than a regular extension (three seasons2 and 5% raises vs. four seasons2 and 8% raises) the rules restrict teams from extending and trading the player in separate transactions in order to circumvent these limits. If a team extends a player beyond the limits of an extend-and-trade (for example, if they sign a player to a four-year extension), they can't trade the player for six months. Conversely, a team cannot extend a player it receives in trade for six months, if the extension exceeds the limits of an extend-and-trade3.


But I must be missing something. Bobby Marks, Zach Lowe and Keith Smith have also talked about Mann trades.


I don’t think anything in there applies to the Mann extension because it was only a two year extension. Not three or four years. The example they used up there is for years. They talk about three year extension too. But not two year extension.

Again, I see nothing in the CBA preventing the Clippers from trading Mann and neither does anyone in NBA media (so far).

So I’ll assume Mann is eligible to be traded!
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Re: Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition 

Post#1123 » by Klomp » Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:11 pm

BlacJacMac wrote:
shrink wrote:
Mann’s salary went from $2 mil to $10 mil, so he is only eligible to be traded six months after signing the extension. Mann signed his extension October 12th.

However, you might want to post on the CBA board. Terance Mann fake-trades are everywhere, including Bobby Marks. I feel like I’m missing something.


He signed it October 12th of 2021...

Mann was already under contract the next two year for a minimum salary, the second season following a team option. Crucially, the Clippers got Mann to agree to the extension beginning in 2023 rather than replacing the team-option season in 2022.

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There it is, that's gotta be the explanation...
tsherkin wrote:The important thing to take away here is that Klomp is wrong.
Esohny wrote:Why are you asking Klomp? "He's" actually a bot that posts random blurbs from a database.
Klomp wrote:I'm putting the tired in retired mod at the moment
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Re: Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition 

Post#1124 » by shrink » Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:28 pm

BlacJacMac wrote:
shrink wrote:
Mann’s salary went from $2 mil to $10 mil, so he is only eligible to be traded six months after signing the extension. Mann signed his extension October 12th.

However, you might want to post on the CBA board. Terance Mann fake-trades are everywhere, including Bobby Marks. I feel like I’m missing something.


He signed it October 12th of 2021...

Mann was already under contract the next two year for a minimum salary, the second season following a team option. Crucially, the Clippers got Mann to agree to the extension beginning in 2023 rather than replacing the team-option season in 2022.

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You’re the real mann, BlacJacMac!

Thank you! That had really been bothering me!
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Re: Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition 

Post#1125 » by BlacJacMac » Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:37 pm

Now let's just get him!
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Re: Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition 

Post#1126 » by Klomp » Wed Jan 25, 2023 9:19 pm

Mann would be a full jump into Point Ant mode on offense. Nothing wrong with that necessarily, but I felt that it needed to be acknowledged.
tsherkin wrote:The important thing to take away here is that Klomp is wrong.
Esohny wrote:Why are you asking Klomp? "He's" actually a bot that posts random blurbs from a database.
Klomp wrote:I'm putting the tired in retired mod at the moment
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Re: Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition 

Post#1127 » by shangrila » Thu Jan 26, 2023 12:18 am

MIN gets; Patty Mills, Doug McDermott, Gary Trent Jr

TOR gets; Jakob Poeltl

SAN gets; D'Angelo Russell, '23 1st (from PHI, via BRK), '24 1st (lottery protected from TOR)

BRK gets; Naz Reid, Jaylen Nowell

Reasoning:
- Wolves get GTJ, assuming we're interested, which improves our shooting. Mills can be a stopgap PG, McDermott is salary filler and might be replaced (but would improve our shooting too).

- Raptors get the big they traded years ago for GTJ and a protected 1st. They also save nearly 10mil.

- Spurs get their 2 1sts for Poeltl and some salary savings next season if Doug is included.

- Nets get Reid for a presumably late 1st as well as take a chance on Nowell, while saving some immediate money.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition 

Post#1128 » by Kineto » Thu Jan 26, 2023 10:22 am

moss_is_1 wrote:
minimus wrote:
Read on Twitter


If we want completely change our identity to defensive minded, we should trade for Caruso. It will be difficult for us to score, since Caruso is close to offensive liability, but I have no doubts that Gobert-MCD-Caruso trio will be an elite defensive core. Add here Anderson and Edwards progress and we might see Gobert-Anderson-MCD-Edwards-Caruso five that can be nightmare for opponent offense.

He's at the top of my wish list. A better matchup for those ultra quick guards, and a change of pace for Jaden, also is a great rebounder for his size.

If we could break Dlo(along with Naz,Nowell) down into Caruso + a true 6th man(like Norman Powell/Kennard, or Gary Trent, Eric Gordon, Clarkson, etc) I'd be pretty damn happy.

Caruso-Jmac
Ant-6th man scorer? - Rivers
Jaden-Prince
KAT-Slomo
Rudy-Knight/Garza


I had thought of a trade that would achieve something like this.

MIL-NYK-CHI

DLO to NYK
Fournier to MIL
Caruso to MIL
Rose to CHI

The salaries don't exactly match up, but it can be managed by adding 1 or 2 end of bench players, and it probably need a couple of draft picks / assets to balance out the deal, but that's basically the spirit.

For NYK, it allows them to get rid of two players out of the rotation and free themselves from Fournier's contract. They can try Dlo and see if it fit with the team ; If it's not the case, he is expiring so no risk there (they can even possibly negotiate a sign and trade with him next summer to not lose him for nothing)

For CHI, they get an iconic player for their franchise, and possibly some assets from NYK.

For MIL, a Caruso McD Gobert trio would indeed be super interesting from a defensive point of view, and Fournier could be a great 6th man, with that veteran mentality the team needs (not to mention that he and Rudy are good buddies, and have already played a lot together in the national team)
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Re: Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition 

Post#1129 » by minimus » Thu Jan 26, 2023 1:55 pm

I am recently thinking about this idea: this summer would you trade Towns for Isaac, Franz Wagner, Bamba and late lottery protected FRP? Bamba in separate trade for Caruso. Isaac in separate trade for Eric Gordon and two 2nd round picks. Re-sign Reid for 32mil /4yrs, offer Nowell 12mil/3yrs extension, if he does not accept - let him walk. Negotiate sign-and-trade with DLo, keep Knight and Rivers, offer Garza Guptas special 8mil/4yrs

Gobert/Reid + Garza
Wagner/Anderson/Knight
MCD/TP/Minott
Edwards/Gordon/Moore
Caruso/JMac/Rivers
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Re: Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition 

Post#1130 » by Domejandro » Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:39 pm

It is kinda funny that the confusion over Terance Mann was that his extension was in 2021 and not 2022.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition 

Post#1131 » by shrink » Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:29 pm

Kineto wrote:
moss_is_1 wrote:
minimus wrote:
Read on Twitter


If we want completely change our identity to defensive minded, we should trade for Caruso. It will be difficult for us to score, since Caruso is close to offensive liability, but I have no doubts that Gobert-MCD-Caruso trio will be an elite defensive core. Add here Anderson and Edwards progress and we might see Gobert-Anderson-MCD-Edwards-Caruso five that can be nightmare for opponent offense.

He's at the top of my wish list. A better matchup for those ultra quick guards, and a change of pace for Jaden, also is a great rebounder for his size.

If we could break Dlo(along with Naz,Nowell) down into Caruso + a true 6th man(like Norman Powell/Kennard, or Gary Trent, Eric Gordon, Clarkson, etc) I'd be pretty damn happy.

Caruso-Jmac
Ant-6th man scorer? - Rivers
Jaden-Prince
KAT-Slomo
Rudy-Knight/Garza


I had thought of a trade that would achieve something like this.

MIL-NYK-CHI

DLO to NYK
Fournier to MIL
Caruso to MIL
Rose to CHI

The salaries don't exactly match up, but it can be managed by adding 1 or 2 end of bench players, and it probably need a couple of draft picks / assets to balance out the deal, but that's basically the spirit.

For NYK, it allows them to get rid of two players out of the rotation and free themselves from Fournier's contract. They can try Dlo and see if it fit with the team ; If it's not the case, he is expiring so no risk there (they can even possibly negotiate a sign and trade with him next summer to not lose him for nothing)

For CHI, they get an iconic player for their franchise, and possibly some assets from NYK.

For MIL, a Caruso McD Gobert trio would indeed be super interesting from a defensive point of view, and Fournier could be a great 6th man, with that veteran mentality the team needs (not to mention that he and Rudy are good buddies, and have already played a lot together in the national team)

(We’re MIN not MIL)

This is an idea that I and others have had. Caruso would be a perfect compliment to point Ant, and the contracts match up. Additional value should go from NYK (who’s getting off of $19 mil of Fournier next year, who doesn’t play), and sent to CHI. However, I was told there are a couple problems with the deal.

First, NYK has no interest in paying to get off of Fournier. They are in the same cap position as we are with DLo, midway between the cap and the lux. Like us, if they remove Fournier, they don’t get cap space back to replace him, if they were really interested though, they could hope to sign DLo next year to a reasonable contract with Bird rights. NYK has several late 1sts, but it’s not in their best interest to use one.

Second, CHI has won some games lately, and they are now 10th in the East. While I still think it would be a good idea to start a retool, they aren’t likely to be selling off talent yet for future picks. I do like that bringing back Rose in a deal would disguise a sell off for casual fans.

I think it works for MIN. Hopefully reconnecting with Gobert would help Fournier get back to rotation status, and I assume he knows how to play with Rudy immediately from years together on the French National team. But the real prize, as you identified, would be Caruso. He is one of the league’s best point of attack defenders, and if MIN believes that the best path to develop Ant is to keep the ball in his hands, Caruso would be a perfect fit.
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Re: Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition 

Post#1132 » by shrink » Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:30 pm

Domejandro wrote:It is kinda funny that the confusion over Terance Mann was that his extension was in 2021 and not 2022.

As in all things, I blame Klomp.
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Re: Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition 

Post#1133 » by wolves_89 » Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:37 pm

One thought on trading DLO. Can Connelly afford to move DLO in a trade that makes the Wolves worse this season? If Minnesota misses the playoffs the unprotected 2023 1st owed to Utah would enter the lottery. I can't imagine the front office wants there to be any chance of that pick moving up.
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Re: Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition 

Post#1134 » by thinktank » Thu Jan 26, 2023 5:03 pm

Domejandro wrote:It is kinda funny that the confusion over Terance Mann was that his extension was in 2021 and not 2022.


Would’ve been easier on us all to trust the reporting.
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Re: Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition 

Post#1135 » by shrink » Thu Jan 26, 2023 5:46 pm

thinktank wrote:
Domejandro wrote:It is kinda funny that the confusion over Terance Mann was that his extension was in 2021 and not 2022.


Would’ve been easier on us all to trust the reporting.

Front offices get it wrong, and reporters often get it wrong. Most aren’t students of the CBA, and in a rush to be first, they often report things or create ideas without checking to see if they are legal.

I will say it’s much better than it used to be, both with fans and reporters. A decade ago, I used to email reporters when they would publish something that legally couldn’t happen according to CBA rules. Except maybe for Woj, I don’t think there was a single reporter back then that didn’t get things wrong. Some were grateful I emailed them. Some changed their stories without a word. Some argued with me, trusting their source more than some random internet nerd. But the bottom line was that none of them needed to be experts in the NBA’s CBA to do their main job.

And front offices aren’t perfect either. Don’t make me tell the story about how David Kahn signed Kirilenko to a free agent offer that the NBA front office rejected, because the Wolves didn’t know how much cap space they had! None of here on the board could figure out how he could make the reported offer!

Today, there is a new generation that have a better handle on the CBA. Guys like Dane Moore, Nate Duncan and Keith Smith are going to get things legally correct, and there are far less guys like Locked On Wolves Ben Beekken who know basketball, but don’t understand the CBA. The work from Larry Coon, the popularity of the ESPN Trade Machine and internet discussion boards like this one have created a desire for this knowledge. Bobby Marks is on TV because people want to know. Nowadays, if a reporter gets it wrong, people will notice because we fact-check.

So it’s better now, but I think it’s a mistake to assume national figures, even these days, always get it right.
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Re: Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition 

Post#1136 » by shrink » Thu Jan 26, 2023 5:57 pm

wolves_89 wrote:One thought on trading DLO. Can Connelly afford to move DLO in a trade that makes the Wolves worse this season? If Minnesota misses the playoffs the unprotected 2023 1st owed to Utah would enter the lottery. I can't imagine the front office wants there to be any chance of that pick moving up.

That’s a really good question!

Connelly is taking a beating right now because people expected MIN to be more successful, and if the first pick pays off big, I think it gets more naysayers to beat their chest and say, “See! I was right!”

But I hope he doesn’t. The picks are a sunk cost now, and a GM should make decisions based on a team’s future, not on its past. In addition, while this trade was win-now, it was a longterm move, do be successful over several years. They also want to maximize the next 3-4 years of KAT’s prime (which they are heavily invested in financially) and they want Ant to gain playoff experience while he’s young. These are the cards Connelly bet on, and went all in.

To me, if the team makes a slight step back this year with a DLo trade, but it improves their winning in future years, that’s a move they should do. I hope Connelly doesn’t bow to any short term personal pressure and do nothing to preserve a couple extra wins right now.
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Re: Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition 

Post#1137 » by BlacJacMac » Thu Jan 26, 2023 6:11 pm

shrink wrote:
wolves_89 wrote:One thought on trading DLO. Can Connelly afford to move DLO in a trade that makes the Wolves worse this season? If Minnesota misses the playoffs the unprotected 2023 1st owed to Utah would enter the lottery. I can't imagine the front office wants there to be any chance of that pick moving up.

That’s a really good question!

Connelly is taking a beating right now because people expected MIN to be more successful, and if the first pick pays off big, I think it gets more naysayers to beat their chest and say, “See! I was right!”

But I hope he doesn’t. The picks are a sunk cost now, and a GM should make decisions based on a team’s future, not on its past. In addition, while this trade was win-now, it was a longterm move, do be successful over several years. They also want to maximize the next 3-4 years of KAT’s prime (which they are heavily invested in financially) and they want Ant to gain playoff experience while he’s young. These are the cards Connelly bet on, and went all in.

To me, if the team makes a slight step back this year with a DLo trade, but it improves their winning in future years, that’s a move they should do. I hope Connelly doesn’t bow to any short term personal pressure and do nothing to preserve a couple extra wins right now.


Agreed.

Also we have to look deeper into what may or may not make us "worse this season". We could replace D'Lo with a guy like Caruso, and while Alex surely won't put up the raw boxscore numbers that DLo does, I'd wager on the team winning more because of the much better fit.
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Re: Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition 

Post#1138 » by coolcono » Thu Jan 26, 2023 6:17 pm

One factor to consider is the Timberwolves should emulate the Twins and sell high on D-Lo.
Regarding Towns, how often has the injury bug set in with him the last couple of season?
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Re: Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition 

Post#1139 » by wolves_89 » Thu Jan 26, 2023 7:14 pm

shrink wrote:
wolves_89 wrote:One thought on trading DLO. Can Connelly afford to move DLO in a trade that makes the Wolves worse this season? If Minnesota misses the playoffs the unprotected 2023 1st owed to Utah would enter the lottery. I can't imagine the front office wants there to be any chance of that pick moving up.

That’s a really good question!

Connelly is taking a beating right now because people expected MIN to be more successful, and if the first pick pays off big, I think it gets more naysayers to beat their chest and say, “See! I was right!”

But I hope he doesn’t. The picks are a sunk cost now, and a GM should make decisions based on a team’s future, not on its past. In addition, while this trade was win-now, it was a longterm move, do be successful over several years. They also want to maximize the next 3-4 years of KAT’s prime (which they are heavily invested in financially) and they want Ant to gain playoff experience while he’s young. These are the cards Connelly bet on, and went all in.

To me, if the team makes a slight step back this year with a DLo trade, but it improves their winning in future years, that’s a move they should do. I hope Connelly doesn’t bow to any short term personal pressure and do nothing to preserve a couple extra wins right now.


A follow-up question. Would extending DLO make more sense than trading him for a player that makes the team worse but preserves the salary slot?
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition 

Post#1140 » by BleedGreen1989 » Thu Jan 26, 2023 7:19 pm

Howdy partners,

Does something around a Payton Prichard for Reid deal sound interesting?

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