Ben Simmons Thread (READ FIRST POST)

[IceManBK1]

Beasley+Prince+Tyrese Maxey+2 lottery protected 1sts(Min) to Raptors. Siakam going to Philly. Simmons to Min.

Philly gets win now player.
Toronto gets 3 good players and a pick.
We get Ben Simmons.

Pretty realistic trade. If raptors are down for it.

[SO_MONEY]

Beasley+Prince+Tyrese Maxey+2 lottery protected 1sts(Min) to Raptors. Siakam going to Philly. Simmons to Min.

Philly gets win now player.
Toronto gets 3 good players and a pick.
We get Ben Simmons.

Pretty realistic trade. If raptors are down for it.

Siakam is worth marginally more than Simmons, but Maxey is way too much. Toronto is in desperate need of a Center and I see no way they wouldn't want Naz. That second FRP might be a hard sell, but at least they are lottery protected.

I think the package we are pushing is Beasley, Naz, Prince and a 1st and with that trying to work out a deal. Do we add a second pick? I think if we do we would want something back to offset it's loss, even if it isn't equal value...a 2nd or a player like Precious...

[Klomp]

But, let’s accept your premise and assume he is averaging 16. Points being equal Beasley makes everyone else better. Simmons makes Ant significantly worse because he will always be facing a big on every single drive. He forces KAT to stand behind the 3 point line instead of at the Elbow because now both opposing bigs are guarding the lane. Rebounding might be improved with Ben but I still think we can get someone else via instead or make up the missing stats with a deeper and better bench. Overall, Simmons would need to basically radically increase his numbers in steals, blocks, and rebounds to be worth his money, especially on a team like ours which is built around shooters.

People bring up defenders sagging off Simmons like they think Towns, Edwards and Russell haven't been playing next to Vanderbilt, Rubio and Okogie.

The difference of course is they shoot better than Simmons or they don't live on the perimeter or they are not paid $35mil or they might be out of the NBA or on minimum or near minimum deals in the future.

3-point shooting, 2020-21 season

Ricky Rubio - .308
Ben Simmons - .300
Josh Okogie - .269
Jarred Vanderbilt - .200

Vanderbilt is the only one you could say doesn't live on the perimeter. And I'd fully expect Finch to use Simmons at times in a similar fashion to how each of those guys were used to play off of Towns, Edwards and Russell. Only difference is that while none are really a threat as a spacer, Simmons is the greatest threat of the four as a creator so defenses will still have to account for him.

[winforlose]

People bring up defenders sagging off Simmons like they think Towns, Edwards and Russell haven't been playing next to Vanderbilt, Rubio and Okogie.

The difference of course is they shoot better than Simmons or they don't live on the perimeter or they are not paid $35mil or they might be out of the NBA or on minimum or near minimum deals in the future.

3-point shooting, 2020-21 season

Ricky Rubio - .308
Ben Simmons - .300
Josh Okogie - .269
Jarred Vanderbilt - .200

Vanderbilt is the only one you could say doesn't live on the perimeter. And I'd fully expect Finch to use Simmons at times in a similar fashion to how each of those guys were used to play off of Towns, Edwards and Russell. Only difference is that while none are really a threat as a spacer, Simmons is the greatest threat of the four as a creator so defenses will still have to account for him.

Klomp we both know your numbers are misleading. Rubio took 214 3s, Okogie shot 108, Simmons shot 10, Vando shot 5. Also, Rubio is half of Simmons money, Okogie is about an 8th of it and Vando is probably going to end around 3 mil and be about 10 times less expensive. Simmons is a better and bigger version of JO. He brings the same problems to our scorers that Ricky brings and he cannot be allowed on the floor at the end of a close game.

[Klomp]

We're so conditioned as Timberwolves fans for the team to be playing with multiple non-shooters at all times around our stars, but those days are coming to an end. Adding Simmons will not bog down the spacing as much as it would've 3 years ago as a result.

Russell (39%) / Beverley (40%)
Beasley (40%) / Nowell (33%)
Edwards (33%) / Bolmaro (?)
McDaniels (36%) / Prince (40%)
Towns (39%) / Reid (35%)

[Krapinsky]

Simmons is a bigger better version of a guy that might be out of the league in two years is just so dumb of a comparison. Like saying Lebron is a better version of Lance Stephenson

[Merc_Porto]

You still are allowed to have one non-shooter on the floor if you are surrounded by good shooters.
After all, you are allowed to score in the paint

A lineup of Ben with KAT, PAT, ANT and let's say Prince as well would work just fine. KAT is not Embiid. Embiid doesn't have the shooting ability of KAT and needs to be in the paint to be effective. KAT likes to hang in the 3pt line a lot. And why not? He's a fantastic shooter.

That's three 40% pt (last season) and we can also hope and expect that Ant is going from 33% for at least 36%.

He needs that, a team with shooters around. And hopefully, he also gets that mental issue solved. That's another thing we are forgetting, this is a mental issue on a 25yo all-star. His shooting form is not the problem at all.

[Klomp]

The difference of course is they shoot better than Simmons or they don't live on the perimeter or they are not paid $35mil or they might be out of the NBA or on minimum or near minimum deals in the future.

3-point shooting, 2020-21 season

Ricky Rubio - .308
Ben Simmons - .300
Josh Okogie - .269
Jarred Vanderbilt - .200

Vanderbilt is the only one you could say doesn't live on the perimeter. And I'd fully expect Finch to use Simmons at times in a similar fashion to how each of those guys were used to play off of Towns, Edwards and Russell. Only difference is that while none are really a threat as a spacer, Simmons is the greatest threat of the four as a creator so defenses will still have to account for him.

Klomp we both know your numbers are misleading. Rubio took 214 3s, Okogie shot 108, Simmons shot 10, Vando shot 5. Also, Rubio is half of Simmons money, Okogie is about an 8th of it and Vando is probably going to end around 3 mil and be about 10 times less expensive. Simmons is a better and bigger version of JO. He brings the same problems to our scorers that Ricky brings and he cannot be allowed on the floor at the end of a close game.

How are they misleading? What I'm conveying is that Towns already plays with non-shooters and has success, so putting Simmons on the floor won't shrink the floor any more than it's already been shrunk.

Why is it a bad thing that Simmons doesn't shoot 3-pointers? Would you rather he shoot them at the same volume Okogie does? What happened to left and right bumpers that we were so excited when they were instituted after Finch took over? Simmons knows he's not a good shooter, so he doesn't shoot 3-pointers. I'd rather have that than someone shooting three or four a game at a 30% clip (Embiid before last season).

The money thing is a valid worry about Simmons and is factored into the discussions, but he is also a far more talented player than any of those three.

[SO_MONEY]

3-point shooting, 2020-21 season

Ricky Rubio - .308
Ben Simmons - .300
Josh Okogie - .269
Jarred Vanderbilt - .200

Vanderbilt is the only one you could say doesn't live on the perimeter. And I'd fully expect Finch to use Simmons at times in a similar fashion to how each of those guys were used to play off of Towns, Edwards and Russell. Only difference is that while none are really a threat as a spacer, Simmons is the greatest threat of the four as a creator so defenses will still have to account for him.

Klomp we both know your numbers are misleading. Rubio took 214 3s, Okogie shot 108, Simmons shot 10, Vando shot 5. Also, Rubio is half of Simmons money, Okogie is about an 8th of it and Vando is probably going to end around 3 mil and be about 10 times less expensive. Simmons is a better and bigger version of JO. He brings the same problems to our scorers that Ricky brings and he cannot be allowed on the floor at the end of a close game.

How are they misleading? What I'm conveying is that Towns already plays with non-shooters and has success, so putting Simmons on the floor won't shrink the floor any more than it's already been shrunk.

Why is it a bad thing that Simmons doesn't shoot 3-pointers? Would you rather he shoot them at the same volume Okogie does? What happened to left and right bumpers that we were so excited when they were instituted after Finch took over? Simmons knows he's not a good shooter, so he doesn't shoot 3-pointers. I'd rather have that than someone shooting three or four a game at a 30% clip (Embiid before last season).

The money thing is a valid worry about Simmons and is factored into the discussions, but he is also a far more talented player than any of those three.

He answered.

To rehash his answer, Simmons is not only a poor shooter, he is a non-shooter (as a perimeter player). Additionally, Simmons has a career 3pt percentage of like 17%...well below anyone but perhaps Vanderbilt, who is not a perimeter player. Simmons also makes a boatload!

[KGdaBom]

The difference of course is they shoot better than Simmons or they don't live on the perimeter or they are not paid $35mil or they might be out of the NBA or on minimum or near minimum deals in the future.

3-point shooting, 2020-21 season

Ricky Rubio - .308
Ben Simmons - .300
Josh Okogie - .269
Jarred Vanderbilt - .200

Vanderbilt is the only one you could say doesn't live on the perimeter. And I'd fully expect Finch to use Simmons at times in a similar fashion to how each of those guys were used to play off of Towns, Edwards and Russell. Only difference is that while none are really a threat as a spacer, Simmons is the greatest threat of the four as a creator so defenses will still have to account for him.

Klomp we both know your numbers are misleading. Rubio took 214 3s, Okogie shot 108, Simmons shot 10, Vando shot 5. Also, Rubio is half of Simmons money, Okogie is about an 8th of it and Vando is probably going to end around 3 mil and be about 10 times less expensive. Simmons is a better and bigger version of JO. He brings the same problems to our scorers that Ricky brings and he cannot be allowed on the floor at the end of a close game.

Why do you make these ridiculous comments. Simmons and JO are nothing alike and I'd be very happy to have Simmons on the court in the last minutes of a close game.

[shrink]

1. You cannot win championships unless you are a playoff team. We need to walk before we run.

2. The Timberwolves couldn't win a title with Kevin Garnett. The Sonics couldn't win a title with Ray Allen. The Celtics couldn't win a title with Paul Pierce. If none of them could win a title on their respective teams, why did Boston try to bring them together if the goal was to win a title?

I just wanted to point out that the gradualism approach isn’t the only pathway to win a championship, and could certainly be the wrong way for a non-free agent destination. PHX nearly won a championship last year, vaulting from the lottery the year before. If you climb up gradually, the value of your picks declines.

Also, Boston was 24-58 the season before they won the finals. Their high pick (#5 if I recall), was the ammunition they needed to trade for Ray Allen.

Neither of these teams walked before they could run. And that is good news for us. We might not be a playoff team next year, and that wouldn’t be the end of the world, because we could see huge growth in many of our young players (19 year olds AND 25 year olds) that could slingshot us up the standings.

[shrink]

As I look at some of these offers for Simmons, let me ask this:

In a vacuum, do you think Simmons has more trade value than KAT?

[winforlose]

As I look at some of these offers for Simmons, let me ask this:

In a vacuum, do you think Simmons has more trade value than KAT?

Less than half of KAT’s value.

[KGdaBom]

As I look at some of these offers for Simmons, let me ask this:

In a vacuum, do you think Simmons has more trade value than KAT?

Ballpark the same. Slightly less though I would think.

[SO_MONEY]

As I look at some of these offers for Simmons, let me ask this:

In a vacuum, do you think Simmons has more trade value than KAT?

Substantially less.

[Battletrigger]

As I look at some of these offers for Simmons, let me ask this:

In a vacuum, do you think Simmons has more trade value than KAT?

Not more, not much less.

[jpatrick]

As I look at some of these offers for Simmons, let me ask this:

In a vacuum, do you think Simmons has more trade value than KAT?

Not more, not much less.

This. KAT has more trade value but not nearly as much more as people on this board think.

He has many of the same problems as Simmons in that he’s talented but an incredibly hard fit. It’s really difficult to win around poor defensive centers, which KAT has been (maybe marginally better last year but not good). Plus, rightfully or wrongfully, the thought is he’s mentally weak and hasnt improved much since entering the league.

Like Simmons, this is a huge year for KAT. He used to be thought of as on the same tier as Jokic and Embiid, but those guys have blown by him.

[shrink]

So I see some higher offers like Beasley, McDaniels, Beverley and two picks for Simmons - what additional assets would KAT fetch from MIN? A third pick and pick swaps? Does he open the door to Edwards?

[SO_MONEY]

So I see some higher offers like Beasley, McDaniels, Beverley and two picks for Simmons - what additional assets would KAT fetch from MIN? A third pick and pick swaps? Does he open the door to Edwards?

This is a hard question to answer because that is about what I would expect for Kat. Two good young players on good to great contracts and two picks is a good haul. Maybe the wolves get some minor asset in addition, maybe not? But relative to this, for Simmons? Probably a two FRP difference, a FRP and another good young player? The difference in value between Towns and Simmons is not insignificant.

I think it is just easier to admit Simmons' trade value is closer to what it is and that is bringing back roughly what Vucivic brought back.

[Krapinsky]

As I look at some of these offers for Simmons, let me ask this:

In a vacuum, do you think Simmons has more trade value than KAT?

KAT has more value right now. That could potentially change if Simmons starts hitting threes in preseason or something.

Hard to know what the return would be because you need multiple bidders to drive up price so it depends on the market at any given time. I think something close to what A) we had to trade to get Butler or B) what we got for Love, is what we would yield for Towns. I think that’s probably 25% more than what Simmons could get right now.