Trade Talk (Part Four)

[Wolveswin]

What about the concept of taking on Horford — wait for it — in return for maximizing value back in return.

So here is the concept.

76ers Give: Horford + Thybulle* + #21 (possible Future 1st)
76ers Get: Johnson + Evans + ________

3rd Team Gives: Draft Pick or Youth Wolves Want
3rd Team Gets: Culver + #17 + #21 (maybe Thybulle and/or Future 76ers 1st)

Wolves Give: Culver + Johnson + Evans + #17
Wolves Get: Horford + Thybulle (maybe) + 3rd Team Asset(s)

Soooooo many different trade scenarios that can be laid out. But the concept is, absorbing Horford and his fit next to Towns (starting vet PF and backup big), for value. Wolves aren’t going to be free agent players, can they stay under tax and maximize value (and production) for Horford?

I appreciate the effort here, but no to Horford and his contract.

Will you explain why?

It may push Wolves to brink of luxury tax and could cost them Hernangomez not being affordable, but...
1. Horford next to Towns is a great fit. If he was 10 years younger one could say perfect fit.
2. Horford contract is 2+Non-guaranteed and expires before Russell and Towns need a new contract...and expires before any 2019 and/or 2020 draft pick needs a non-rookie contract.
3. His vet presence for a young team with playoff desires would be valuable.
4. When he becomes a expiring contract during 2022 offseason, he would be wonderful salary ballast for Rosas to consolidate trade (please stay Towns all-in effort). Horford (expiring) + 2020 1st + future draft considerations is a great start for disgruntled star.

[Klomp]

I think the concept of trading a higher-priced vet in order to take additional assets is one that makes a lot of sense, but I'm not sure Philadelphia and Horford is the right fit for our roster and system. The Sixers would be trading him due to Horford being a better fit at C than PF, so why would he work so much better here?

One fit that I've considered is Milwaukee and Khris Middleton if Milwaukee cannot keep Antetokounmpo in town. Another could be Charlotte and Terry Rozier or Sacramento and Harrison Barnes.

[TaylorTag]

Hear me out. What if we trade #1 and Jake Layman for Josh Richardson, Glen Robinson III (S&T) and Philadelphia's 2021 FRP.

Wolves get the perfect wing player to go along Russel and KAT. Richardson is a borderline max player who the Wolves intend to pay accordingly because he is the type of player the Wolves can attract long-term.. From Oklahoma, played at Tennessee, stint in Miami showed he is a yeoman who doesn't necessarily need the limelight... He also compliments Russel in that he can be a primary ball handler to allow Russel work off-ball and could also do some pick n roll action with KAT.. Good enough 3-point shooter to spread the floor for those guys... Glen Robinson III gives the Wolves another wing to join Richardson, Beasely (I'd resign Beasely if we were to make this trade), Okogie, Culver and Nowell. With the 2021 FRP, Wolves get back into the loaded draft.. Won't be that high of a pick, but valuable nonetheless, especially if we are able to turn James Johnson into more draft capital..

76ers do it because they realize Richardson is not the best pairing with Ben Simmons... Unlike Russel, Ben doesn't spread the floor to let Richardson work (and vis versa). With this trade, 76ers are able to draft Anthony Edwards, who many project to be the next Donovan Mitchell and is the perfect pairing with Simmons and Embiid.

I'm not in love this trade. I think the Wolves are giving up more value than they are taking in. But this could be a solid way to get our third max player. But doesn't come without some risk. Richardson only has one more year left on his contract before his player option kicks in.. Wolves would have to get assurances before hand that Richardson would sign a long-term contract with the Wolves, which is a little scary considering we have never seen Richardson play with Russel or KAT before (not that our 2 current franchise players have every played together)...

With our No. 17, I think the Wolves could pray that the other Memphis big man in this draft, Precious Achiuwa falls and and the Wolves are able to pick up a quality big man to compete at PF. Then at No. 33 you get someone like Cassius Winston. Our lineup would look like (assuming we sign Hernangomez to a reasonable contact):

PG: Russel, McLaughlin, Winston
SG: Beasely, Okogie, Nowell
SF: Richardson, Culver, Robinson III
PF: Achiuwa, Hernangomez, Vanderbilt
C: Towns, Reid

[shrink]

I think the concept of trading a higher-priced vet in order to take additional assets is one that makes a lot of sense, but I'm not sure Philadelphia and Horford is the right fit for our roster and system. The Sixers would be trading him due to Horford being a better fit at C than PF, so why would he work so much better here?

One fit that I've considered is Milwaukee and Khris Middleton if Milwaukee cannot keep Antetokounmpo in town. Another could be Charlotte and Terry Rozier or Sacramento and Harrison Barnes.

I also like the idea of taking a higher price vet to get some additional assets. For teams that are unlikely to make the playoffs, I think this is a good way to leverage your payroll to add talent to a team. It is far more damaging for a contending team to have anchor contracts that keep them from getting as much talent out of their payroll as other contenders, so we should be able to find a price where both teams win. The yardstick I always say for finding trade targets is “he’s worth more to us than you.” The contrapositive works as well, “he’s less negative to you than to us.”

Horford would have some value here with Towns, because Towns is a very different beast than Embiid. I also think Horford is a solid professional, and I wouldn’t mind putting his voice in Towns’ ear.

The real person I’d be concerned about is Rosas. He seems to enjoy the flexibility to make moves, but Horford’s contract could be a one way ticket. It also removes midsize contracts for matching purposes if JJ and Culver are gone, further restricting trade flexibility. Lastly, Rosas also seems focused on Towns’ window, and Al might not work for him.

[shrink]

Hear me out. What if we trade #1 and Jake Layman for Josh Richardson, Glen Robinson III (S&T) and Philadelphia's 2021 FRP.

I agree with you that Josh Richardson could be a good fit here. Good eye. However, his price tag is far lower than this right now, since his production for the Sixers has been so uninspiring. Moreover, any time a player is on the last year of his deal, there’s a big risk you may just be giving away assets if they walk. And, like Oladipo, you get trapped if he demands a contract far bigger than you want to give up.

My current idea is to wait until December 10th (or whatever the new calendar will be), and trade them Beasley straight up. For them, while Beasley is a worse player, he will be cost-controlled for several seasons on an economical, Covid-based number. PHI needs cost control - they can’t afford to pay JRich. Plus, Beasley’s here point shooting would compliment their team better. For us, we get a better player, who can still score inside and outside, and is much better defensively. I assume we would have an understanding with Richardson that he wants to be in MIN, and we’d be willing to pay him. I’d do the deal immediately as a sign-and-trade, but PHI can’t afford to be hard capped.

[Klomp]

For us, we get a better player, who can still score inside and outside, and is much better defensively. I assume we would have an understanding with Richardson that he wants to be in MIN, and we’d be willing to pay him. I’d do the deal immediately as a sign-and-trade, but PHI can’t afford to be hard capped.

I don't know that Richardson is a better player.

[Wolveswin]

I think the concept of trading a higher-priced vet in order to take additional assets is one that makes a lot of sense, but I'm not sure Philadelphia and Horford is the right fit for our roster and system. The Sixers would be trading him due to Horford being a better fit at C than PF, so why would he work so much better here?

One fit that I've considered is Milwaukee and Khris Middleton if Milwaukee cannot keep Antetokounmpo in town. Another could be Charlotte and Terry Rozier or Sacramento and Harrison Barnes.

I also like the idea of taking a higher price vet to get some additional assets. For teams that are unlikely to make the playoffs, I think this is a good way to leverage your payroll to add talent to a team. It is far more damaging for a contending team to have anchor contracts that keep them from getting as much talent out of their payroll as other contenders, so we should be able to find a price where both teams win. The yardstick I always say for finding trade targets is “he’s worth more to us than you.” The contrapositive works as well, “he’s less negative to you than to us.”

Horford would have some value here with Towns, because Towns is a very different beast than Embiid. I also think Horford is a solid professional, and I wouldn’t mind putting his voice in Towns’ ear.

The real person I’d be concerned about is Rosas. He seems to enjoy the flexibility to make moves, but Horford’s contract could be a one way ticket. He also seems focused on Towns’ window, and Al might not work for him.

If Rosas traded for Horford, I think he would be rostered in MN for 2 years (at longest). Rosas would look to move him as expiring deal — perfect salary filler for Rosas.

I also think Saunders would ceremonially start Horford at PF, but be quick to pull him for young developing player next to Towns (even maybe a rookie). Horford would get large % (maybe majority %) at center and not next to Towns.

[shrink]

I think the concept of trading a higher-priced vet in order to take additional assets is one that makes a lot of sense, but I'm not sure Philadelphia and Horford is the right fit for our roster and system. The Sixers would be trading him due to Horford being a better fit at C than PF, so why would he work so much better here?

One fit that I've considered is Milwaukee and Khris Middleton if Milwaukee cannot keep Antetokounmpo in town. Another could be Charlotte and Terry Rozier or Sacramento and Harrison Barnes.

I also like the idea of taking a higher price vet to get some additional assets. For teams that are unlikely to make the playoffs, I think this is a good way to leverage your payroll to add talent to a team. It is far more damaging for a contending team to have anchor contracts that keep them from getting as much talent out of their payroll as other contenders, so we should be able to find a price where both teams win. The yardstick I always say for finding trade targets is “he’s worth more to us than you.” The contrapositive works as well, “he’s less negative to you than to us.”

Horford would have some value here with Towns, because Towns is a very different beast than Embiid. I also think Horford is a solid professional, and I wouldn’t mind putting his voice in Towns’ ear.

The real person I’d be concerned about is Rosas. He seems to enjoy the flexibility to make moves, but Horford’s contract could be a one way ticket. He also seems focused on Towns’ window, and Al might not work for him.

If Rosas traded for Horford, I think he would be rostered in MN for 2 years (at longest). Rosas would look to move him as expiring deal — perfect salary filler for Rosas.

I also think Saunders would ceremonially start Horford at PF, but be quick to pull him for young developing player next to Towns (even maybe a rookie). Horford would get large % (maybe majority %) at center and not next to Towns.

I agree with both points. I had thought the player this would affect most wouldn’t be Towns but instead Naz Reid.

[shrink]

For us, we get a better player, who can still score inside and outside, and is much better defensively. I assume we would have an understanding with Richardson that he wants to be in MIN, and we’d be willing to pay him. I’d do the deal immediately as a sign-and-trade, but PHI can’t afford to be hard capped.

I don't know that Richardson is a better player.

Let me dazzle you with my statistics. For me,

I think Beasley is a very good offensive player and a bad defensive player
I think JRich is a good offensive player and a very good defensive player.

I also think Richardson is a far better pairing with DLo.

[Klomp]

I also think Saunders would ceremonially start Horford at PF, but be quick to pull him for young developing player next to Towns (even maybe a rookie). Horford would get large % (maybe majority %) at center and not next to Towns.

I agree with both points. I had thought the player this would affect most wouldn’t be Towns but instead Naz Reid.

OK. When people start by saying someone is a perfect fit next to Towns, that tells me they're looking at that player more as a PF than C. If the understanding is he'd play more at C, I think the team would be more open to the idea....though $27 million is a big salary to pay to what is essentially a backup C.

[Klomp]

Let me dazzle you with my statistics. For me,

I think Beasley is a very good offensive player and a bad defensive player
I think JRich is a good offensive player and a very good defensive player.

I also think Richardson is a far better pairing with DLo.

I don't personally agree with this, but that reasoning makes sense as to why you feel the way you do.

[Wolveswin]

I also think Saunders would ceremonially start Horford at PF, but be quick to pull him for young developing player next to Towns (even maybe a rookie). Horford would get large % (maybe majority %) at center and not next to Towns.

I agree with both points. I had thought the player this would affect most wouldn’t be Towns but instead Naz Reid.

OK. When people start by saying someone is a perfect fit next to Towns, that tells me they're looking at that player more as a PF than C. If the understanding is he'd play more at C, I think the team would be more open to the idea....though $27 million is a big salary to pay to what is essentially a backup C.

To be precise, it would be 27mil for a starting PF and backup center — but also a mentor. If Horford got 26MPG, 14 would be at PF and 12 at C. The rest of the time, get inside Towns head. If he could be “KG light” in developing the mind of Towns, 27mil gets easier to swallow (despite the bad after taste).

[shangrila]

I agree with both points. I had thought the player this would affect most wouldn’t be Towns but instead Naz Reid.

OK. When people start by saying someone is a perfect fit next to Towns, that tells me they're looking at that player more as a PF than C. If the understanding is he'd play more at C, I think the team would be more open to the idea....though $27 million is a big salary to pay to what is essentially a backup C.

To be precise, it would be 27mil for a starting PF and backup center — but also a mentor. If Horford got 26MPG, 14 would be at PF and 12 at C. The rest of the time, get inside Towns head. If he could be “KG light” in developing the mind of Towns, 27mil gets easier to swallow (despite the bad after taste).

Considering the way he acted at times this season, like when he outed the team's chemistry issues, I'm not sure I'm buying Horford as a valuable veteran presence anymore. Combined with his salary and his production, I just don't see the point unless there's multiple 1sts attached.

It's basically the same contract as Wiggins but without any of the slim upsides Andrew had (athleticism, youth) and everyone expected that to take 2 or more 1sts to move.

[Neeva]

I agree with both points. I had thought the player this would affect most wouldn’t be Towns but instead Naz Reid.

OK. When people start by saying someone is a perfect fit next to Towns, that tells me they're looking at that player more as a PF than C. If the understanding is he'd play more at C, I think the team would be more open to the idea....though $27 million is a big salary to pay to what is essentially a backup C.

To be precise, it would be 27mil for a starting PF and backup center — but also a mentor. If Horford got 26MPG, 14 would be at PF and 12 at C. The rest of the time, get inside Towns head. If he could be “KG light” in developing the mind of Towns, 27mil gets easier to swallow (despite the bad after taste).

I’d only be interested if it meant multiple lightly protected first round picks and Thybulle. Like maybe Horford, pick 21, 2022 and 2024 top 3 protected picks and Thybulle for James Johnson and Beasley.

Although philly probably tries to trade for cp3 , using those assets and if they do he gets injured and misses most of next season..because he is due. Beasley would be perfect for them.

[minimus]

Read on Twitter

I wonder if NOP is a better team/organization right now for a veteran such as Jrue Holiday. I understand that they have all Zion hype but maybe Jrue will ask trade?

Trade with NOP:
Out: #1, JJ, Culver, Evans, Spellman
In: #13, Jrue Holiday, 2021 NOP FRP (top10 protected)

Why for MIN: get a veteran, defensive-minded combo-guard Holiday, get future FP 2021,
Why for CHI: get Wiseman

Draft Patrick Williams, Saddiq Bey, Killian Tillie. Re-sign Beasley, Jmac.

KAT/Reid/Tillie
Williams/Layman/Vanderbilt
Bey/Okogie/Layman
Holiday/Beasley/Nowell
DLo/JMac/Holiday

[Neeva]

Holiday has one year left? That 2021 pick needs to be top 3 protected only.

[shangrila]

Holiday is probably what they're looking for in a lot of ways.

Unfortunately I doubt he fits the timeline they want to stick to so I don't see them giving up big assets to get him (which means they obviously have no shot at getting him).

[TaylorTag]

Hear me out. What if we trade #1 and Jake Layman for Josh Richardson, Glen Robinson III (S&T) and Philadelphia's 2021 FRP.

I agree with you that Josh Richardson could be a good fit here. Good eye. However, his price tag is far lower than this right now, since his production for the Sixers has been so uninspiring. Moreover, any time a player is on the last year of his deal, there’s a big risk you may just be giving away assets if they walk. And, like Oladipo, you get trapped if he demands a contract far bigger than you want to give up.

My current idea is to wait until December 10th (or whatever the new calendar will be), and trade them Beasley straight up. For them, while Beasley is a worse player, he will be cost-controlled for several seasons on an economical, Covid-based number. PHI needs cost control - they can’t afford to pay JRich. Plus, Beasley’s here point shooting would compliment their team better. For us, we get a better player, who can still score inside and outside, and is much better defensively. I assume we would have an understanding with Richardson that he wants to be in MIN, and we’d be willing to pay him. I’d do the deal immediately as a sign-and-trade, but PHI can’t afford to be hard capped.

Wouldn't it be amazing if they kept December 10 as the deadline and we were able to pull of this trade before the regular season started. A haunted Wolves fan can dream

[Domejandro]

If we can keep Malik Beasley for the cost controlled price you are suggesting, wouldn't we want to stick with him, given our cap situation?

Speaking on the Jrue Holiday trade, I would comfortably do James Johnson, #1 (signed for salary), and filler for Jrue Holiday and #13. I really wish Malik Beasley was two inches taller, though, because Small-Forward is a problem and he earned starting next year. Trade up to nab Aaron Nesmith.

[KGdaBom]

If we can keep Malik Beasley for the cost controlled price you are suggesting, wouldn't we want to stick with him, given our cap situation?

Speaking on the Jrue Holiday trade, I would comfortably do James Johnson, #1 (signed for salary), and filler for Jrue Holiday and #13. I really wish Malik Beasley was two inches taller, though, because Small-Forward is a problem and he earned starting next year. Trade up to nab Aaron Nesmith.

Jrue is so good. It would be nice to have him. Does he become UFA or RFA after his contract is up? I think he's worth one more max contract. I think Jrue and D'Lo would coexist nicely.