Trade Talk (Part Nine) (READ FIRST POST)

[winforlose]

I don’t know if I like the Vando, Turner, Towns lineup. I definitely don’t want to put Vando on the bench. Gotta reward that type of improvement and if you don’t I think in a couple years he could walk. I definitely think we have to get one of Grant, Barnes or Roco. All three can play 3 or 4 and bring defense plus floor spacing, when teams take their centers off of KAT.

Then create room for WCS and try to revive his career with familiar teammates he has had success with.

I don’t know what you don’t like. You have the big 3 for shot creation. Turner spaces the floor like Bev. V8 basically has the same role on offense he always had. On defense V8 can guard basically 1-4. I think his value increases when he can use his length to bother wings instead of being outsized by PFs. Rebounding gets easier with another big. I just don’t see the downside.

[Mattya]

I don’t know if I like the Vando, Turner, Towns lineup. I definitely don’t want to put Vando on the bench. Gotta reward that type of improvement and if you don’t I think in a couple years he could walk. I definitely think we have to get one of Grant, Barnes or Roco. All three can play 3 or 4 and bring defense plus floor spacing, when teams take their centers off of KAT.

Then create room for WCS and try to revive his career with familiar teammates he has had success with.

I don’t know what you don’t like. You have the big 3 for shot creation. Turner spaces the floor like Bev. V8 basically has the same role on offense he always had. On defense V8 can guard basically 1-4. I think his value increases when he can use his length to bother wings instead of being outsized by PFs. Rebounding gets easier with another big. I just don’t see the downside.

First, I think one of the main benefits Beverly has brought this season is his ability to slash and play make some because of the action from DLo, Edwards and KAT. I think it has been massive for the starting lineup. On top of that I think his ability to defend perimeter players is a key part of our defense. If we are replacing him I want a perimeter forward who can do some of the same things. That is not what the lineup of KAT, Turner and Vando provide.

Now consider what it does to the rest of the rotation. The bench has struggled with scoring unless players are hitting 3s. Nowell shows how important it was to be able to put the ball on the floor. Turner helps space the floor, but what would really help are more players that can slash and create rotations.

[Klomp]

I don’t know if I like the Vando, Turner, Towns lineup. I definitely don’t want to put Vando on the bench. Gotta reward that type of improvement and if you don’t I think in a couple years he could walk. I definitely think we have to get one of Grant, Barnes or Roco. All three can play 3 or 4 and bring defense plus floor spacing, when teams take their centers off of KAT.

Then create room for WCS and try to revive his career with familiar teammates he has had success with.

You don't know?! I know I don't like it!

[winforlose]

I don’t know if I like the Vando, Turner, Towns lineup. I definitely don’t want to put Vando on the bench. Gotta reward that type of improvement and if you don’t I think in a couple years he could walk. I definitely think we have to get one of Grant, Barnes or Roco. All three can play 3 or 4 and bring defense plus floor spacing, when teams take their centers off of KAT.

Then create room for WCS and try to revive his career with familiar teammates he has had success with.

I don’t know what you don’t like. You have the big 3 for shot creation. Turner spaces the floor like Bev. V8 basically has the same role on offense he always had. On defense V8 can guard basically 1-4. I think his value increases when he can use his length to bother wings instead of being outsized by PFs. Rebounding gets easier with another big. I just don’t see the downside.

First, I think one of the main benefits Beverly has brought this season is his ability to slash and play make some because of the action from DLo, Edwards and KAT. I think it has been massive for the starting lineup. On top of that I think his ability to defend perimeter players is a key part of our defense. If we are replacing him I want a perimeter forward who can do some of the same things. That is not what the lineup of KAT, Turner and Vando provide.

Now consider what it does to the rest of the rotation. The bench has struggled with scoring unless players are hitting 3s. Nowell shows how important it was to be able to put the ball on the floor. Turner helps space the floor, but what would really help are more players that can slash and create rotations.

I see your point, I just think Ant will pick up some of that slack. Ant and Dlo are your slashers, KAT draws the double an kicks out, Turner is as good or better from 3 as Bev this year. What you lose in slashing you make up for in our backs and offensive rebounds. It is also harder for opposing teams to defend 3 large men plus Ant who is kinda huge for a SG. Dlo is also right on the size border between large PG and small SG. My point is offensively we do lose the Bev floater and slashing, but we gain a lot as well. We also put Ant in a situation that I think he is ready for, and that hopefully gets him consistently more engaged.

On defense, I strongly disagree. Turner is a rim protector and perfect fit with the high wall concept that sends KAT to the perimeter. V8 meanwhile is every bit as fast as Bev with longer arms and a lot more height. He can pick up the perimeter slack, and again the size advantage cleans up or weakness in defensive rebounding. Giving up fewer second chance buckets will make a big difference. Closing down the paint with Turner will allow us fewer runouts and more consistent perimeter defense. Also as an added bonus, V8 gets to guard wings and bother them with his length.

[Domejandro]

Maybe Leo works. Or Knight

No, that's just trash. I think Naz, Mcdaniels, and Nowell could fit the description of 'promising' young player.

Based on what? Knight was an in demand two way who will likely end up on someone’s roster, and Leo is a first round draft pick who is known for his defense and has a history in Europe. A slow start with inconsistent minutes doesn’t make him trash. Reid and a first for Turner is only doable for us if we go out and get another big to make up the depth we lose.

Beyond the fact that Myles Turner would replace all of Naz Reid's minutes, Nathan Knight is not "in-demand" enough to be a serious piece in a trade discussion.

Personally, I think Taurean Prince, Leandro Bolmaro, Naz Reid, and a Lottery Protected First for Myles Turner is pretty much on the money value wise (and keeps Minnesota just outside of the Luxury-Tax), but figuring out roster spots for Indiana is rough.

[Mattya]

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This guy can at least defend some guards, forwards, has the length the block bigs like Gobert. While we struggle with bugs, I think swapping Pat Bev with Grant in the starting lineup could make a big difference for the size problem. While we probably lose some guard point guards. This type of versatility at the forward spot would be huge imo.

Then you can have him stick with the bench to boost the offense as well and let him have that role while the other starters rest.

[Mattya]

I don’t know what you don’t like. You have the big 3 for shot creation. Turner spaces the floor like Bev. V8 basically has the same role on offense he always had. On defense V8 can guard basically 1-4. I think his value increases when he can use his length to bother wings instead of being outsized by PFs. Rebounding gets easier with another big. I just don’t see the downside.

First, I think one of the main benefits Beverly has brought this season is his ability to slash and play make some because of the action from DLo, Edwards and KAT. I think it has been massive for the starting lineup. On top of that I think his ability to defend perimeter players is a key part of our defense. If we are replacing him I want a perimeter forward who can do some of the same things. That is not what the lineup of KAT, Turner and Vando provide.

Now consider what it does to the rest of the rotation. The bench has struggled with scoring unless players are hitting 3s. Nowell shows how important it was to be able to put the ball on the floor. Turner helps space the floor, but what would really help are more players that can slash and create rotations.

I think you are very much under selling how impactful Beverley has been on perimeter defense this season. Him harassing people on the perimeter is one of the big reasons we can swarm on defense and cause turnovers.

I see your point, I just think Ant will pick up some of that slack. Ant and Dlo are your slashers, KAT draws the double an kicks out, Turner is as good or better from 3 as Bev this year. What you lose in slashing you make up for in our backs and offensive rebounds. It is also harder for opposing teams to defend 3 large men plus Ant who is kinda huge for a SG. Dlo is also right on the size border between large PG and small SG. My point is offensively we do lose the Bev floater and slashing, but we gain a lot as well. We also put Ant in a situation that I think he is ready for, and that hopefully gets him consistently more engaged.

On defense, I strongly disagree. Turner is a rim protector and perfect fit with the high wall concept that sends KAT to the perimeter. V8 meanwhile is every bit as fast as Bev with longer arms and a lot more height. He can pick up the perimeter slack, and again the size advantage cleans up or weakness in defensive rebounding. Giving up fewer second chance buckets will make a big difference. Closing down the paint with Turner will allow us fewer runouts and more consistent perimeter defense. Also as an added bonus, V8 gets to guard wings and bother them with his length.

[winforlose]

No, that's just trash. I think Naz, Mcdaniels, and Nowell could fit the description of 'promising' young player.

Based on what? Knight was an in demand two way who will likely end up on someone’s roster, and Leo is a first round draft pick who is known for his defense and has a history in Europe. A slow start with inconsistent minutes doesn’t make him trash. Reid and a first for Turner is only doable for us if we go out and get another big to make up the depth we lose.

Beyond the fact that Myles Turner would replace all of Naz Reid's minutes, Nathan Knight is not "in-demand" enough to be a serious piece in a trade discussion.

Personally, I think Taurean Prince, Leandro Bolmaro, Naz Reid, and a Lottery Protected First for Myles Turner is pretty much on the money value wise (and keeps Minnesota just outside of the Luxury-Tax), but figuring out roster spots for Indiana is rough.

You don’t need to send both Naz and Leo. Naz is a promising young player. Naz plus Prince plus a first works and we can make other moves to get back under the tax. Especially if we can find a buyer for Beasley.

[Klomp]

When examining things, we need to look at who we are willing to sacrifice and what holes they would create with their departures.

Note: This will not look like a normal depth chart, but bare with me...

Point Playmakers: Russell / McLaughlin / Wright
Wing Playmakers: Edwards / Nowell / Bolmaro
Complements: Beverley / Vanderbilt / McDaniels / Beasley / Prince / Okogie / Layman (play 2 at a time)
Bigs: Towns / Reid / Knight

I know the first two-fold argument people will come at me with: The absence of a second big position and the categorization of Vanderbilt. I did not make a mistake here, it is exactly how it should look.

I've said all along since before the season that the offense is big man, primary playmaker and secondary playmaker, with 3/D spot up artists in the corners. That is the offense Finch largely wants to run. Guys can be intertwined into other roles, such as when Towns and Vanderbilt share the floor, Vanderbilt and Towns can go either way to keep the offense spaced. But the important thing is that the offense is centered around the big and the playmakers.

There are two big needs I see here: getting better two-way complements and adding possibly one more playmaker (this can be addressed by sliding Beverley in as playmaker with additional complements). Beverley and Vanderbilt likely aren't going anywhere. Beasley is the most likely, with McDaniels another possible depending on the return.

Trading Reid is possible, but would require the addition of a replacement big, whether Knight or otherwise.

The more I look at things, the more I don't see Turner as a perfect fit in what Finch wants to run. I think they can make it fit, but what makes our defense hum is our switchability 1 through 4. Turner doesn't fit into that, not for what we would have to give up in order to get him. Not saying the value is right for him either, but Simmons is arguably a better fit for what we want to do, in part because of his flexibility to slot in as either a playmaker or complement on offense along with his incredible defense. Beverley brought a similar flexibility, and look at how well he's fit in.

[Klomp]

Unfortunately, this is what makes the deadline tricky:

Consider this deadline's hottest commodity: The versatile, shooting forward. Jerami Grant and Harrison Barnes might be available. Robert Covington certainly is. T.J. Warren could probably be had for a reasonable price if a contender wants to take a major swing. Marcus Morris is looming as yet another option at this typically sparse archetype. Every team wants players like this. Few have enough of them.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/power-brokers-of-the-nba-trade-deadline-why-bulls-pacers-blazers-and-thunder-will-dominate-the-rumor-mill/

On the bright side, it's possible this could help make McDaniels a little more valuable on the market than what he's currently providing on the court. I know contenders want immediate impact and probably wouldn't bite on him, but it's that next level that might find him intriguing. Our return would probably have to be pretty significant in order to pull the trigger though. Prince also could hold some value here if a team misses out on a bigger fish.

Unfortunately, these two are also in the role here that we would be trying to upgrade ourselves. Teams see this. Do they ignore that fact and discredit us because we're Minnesota? Do they try to rip off the interim GM? How confident is Gupta in the value of these pieces?

[Klomp]

Where does the value currently lie with this as the basis for a trade?

Malik Beasley and Naz Reid for PJ Washington and Mason Plumlee

Charlotte has been looking for a center, so much so that Washington has gotten a bulk of his minutes there. The Plumlee inclusion does hurt their depth there even more, but for a starting upgrade I think they may consider it. Beasley is the type of player who would likely thrive as a shooter playing off of LaMelo Ball.

For us, we add a little depth in the paint, especially someone who has the ability to play alongside Towns. Plumlee isn't a great contract value because of the extra year on his deal, but we can get some value out of him as an extra big. Finally, we save nearly $3 million on the books this year, which could allow us to add a 15th player if necessary.

[moonpie]

Prince + Okogie/Layman + a protected 1st for Harrison Barnes? Kings shed that extra year, pick up a 1st for Barnes if they decide to go into tank mode

[winforlose]

If we could swing Kuzma for Beasley as part of a 3 team deal would people be good with it?

[wolves_89]

New rumors state that Morey might hold off on a Simmons trade until the off-season on the chance that Harden becomes available. It would really suck to be sitting there waiting on a Simmons deal (that in the best case is highly unlikely) while players that could help the Wolves get moved elsewhere. I hope Gupta becomes willing to move Wolves assets before the trade market really kicks off.

[Neeva]

Gupta wont be around for next season IMO.1

[Klomp]

New rumors state that Morey might hold off on a Simmons trade until the off-season on the chance that Harden becomes available. It would really suck to be sitting there waiting on a Simmons deal (that in the best case is highly unlikely) while players that could help the Wolves get moved elsewhere. I hope Gupta becomes willing to move Wolves assets before the trade market really kicks off.

I think people need to stop with the idea that Gupta (or Rosas before him) is waiting for a Simmons deal and declining any and all offers because of it. He's not just waiting on a Simmons deal. I think waiting to use assets that can be used in a deal for a big fish is a more accurate representation of the situation. If a deal comes up that will not jeopardize the assets for any future deal (no matter the target), the team will consider it. The Beverley deal is a perfect example of this.

[wolves_89]

New rumors state that Morey might hold off on a Simmons trade until the off-season on the chance that Harden becomes available. It would really suck to be sitting there waiting on a Simmons deal (that in the best case is highly unlikely) while players that could help the Wolves get moved elsewhere. I hope Gupta becomes willing to move Wolves assets before the trade market really kicks off.

I think people need to stop with the idea that Gupta (or Rosas before him) is waiting for a Simmons deal and declining any and all offers because of it. He's not just waiting on a Simmons deal. I think waiting to use assets that can be used in a deal for a big fish is a more accurate representation of the situation. If a deal comes up that will not jeopardize the assets for any future deal (no matter the target), the team will consider it. The Beverley deal is a perfect example of this.

I'm not sure I see the distinction you are trying to make. As far as I can tell, pretty much all the Wolves assets might be needed in some combination to acquire Simmons and consequently they have been unavailable for smaller deals. Every indication is that this has been the case since early in the off-season (basically since the Beverley deal).

[Klomp]

New rumors state that Morey might hold off on a Simmons trade until the off-season on the chance that Harden becomes available. It would really suck to be sitting there waiting on a Simmons deal (that in the best case is highly unlikely) while players that could help the Wolves get moved elsewhere. I hope Gupta becomes willing to move Wolves assets before the trade market really kicks off.

I think people need to stop with the idea that Gupta (or Rosas before him) is waiting for a Simmons deal and declining any and all offers because of it. He's not just waiting on a Simmons deal. I think waiting to use assets that can be used in a deal for a big fish is a more accurate representation of the situation. If a deal comes up that will not jeopardize the assets for any future deal (no matter the target), the team will consider it. The Beverley deal is a perfect example of this.

I'm not sure I see the distinction you are trying to make. As far as I can tell, pretty much all the Wolves assets might be needed in some combination to acquire Simmons and consequently they have been unavailable for smaller deals. Every indication is that this has been the case since early in the off-season (basically since the Beverley deal).

Say what you want about the size, but Culver and Hernangomez were assets too. However, they were still dealt...whether it's because Beverley would be a bigger asset or because they thought Beverley was important for the team culture.

If any of our assets can net a more valuable asset, I think the team would still make the deal regardless of the Simmons situation and/or negotiations. It isn't a no-trades standstill right now like many Wolves fans think.

[wolves_89]

I think people need to stop with the idea that Gupta (or Rosas before him) is waiting for a Simmons deal and declining any and all offers because of it. He's not just waiting on a Simmons deal. I think waiting to use assets that can be used in a deal for a big fish is a more accurate representation of the situation. If a deal comes up that will not jeopardize the assets for any future deal (no matter the target), the team will consider it. The Beverley deal is a perfect example of this.

I'm not sure I see the distinction you are trying to make. As far as I can tell, pretty much all the Wolves assets might be needed in some combination to acquire Simmons and consequently they have been unavailable for smaller deals. Every indication is that this has been the case since early in the off-season (basically since the Beverley deal).

Say what you want about the size, but Culver and Hernangomez were assets too. However, they were still dealt...whether it's because Beverley would be a bigger asset or because they thought Beverley was important for the team culture.

If any of our assets can net a more valuable asset, I think the team would still make the deal regardless of the Simmons situation and/or negotiations. It isn't a no-trades standstill right now like many Wolves fans think.

I guess we disagree. I see the Beverley trade (and the Rubio one) as happening early enough that it didn't really impact the Simmons pursuit (since Beverley and Prince would become trade eligible in a timeframe that wouldn't hinder a Simmons trade). Since then, I've strongly suspected that the team has been sitting on their assets waiting for the Simmons situation to be resolved. I've believed that since the middle of the off-season, and recent rumors from NBA sources have only reinforced that opinion.

I'll be happy to be proven wrong, since that would mean that the Wolves actually make a deal to improve the roster (something that is overdue at this point).

[andyhop]

New rumors state that Morey might hold off on a Simmons trade until the off-season on the chance that Harden becomes available. .

I think it is just easier to move Simmons in the offseason than it is now