ALL RUBIO TALK HERE

[Genjuro]

I've read that Alberto Miralles had a similar lawsuit against joventut and he lost his arbitration hearing. Perhaps Ricky is different because he signed his deal at 14? genjuro maybe you can shed some light on this, because precedents could be important here.

In Spain you can't sign a pro basketball contract until you turn 16 years old, right the moment when Ricky signed his.

Miralles left the team first, so that probably worked against him on the court. Rubio hasn't. In the end, Miralles was condemned to pay the full amount of his buyout. There has been precedents mainly in soccer, with mixed results. My perennial point is that it's a risky game with uncertain results.

[casey]

No, it is not. NBA teams have to renounce their rights to American players if that player gets another contract offer from an NBA team and the team that owns the draft rights refuses to sign him. The team holding the draft rights then has to make an offer or renounce the rights.

For foreign players they can simply hold the player hostage permanently. It's quite interesting to know that people consider this exactly the same thing.

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#Q42

* If the player is already under contract to, or signs a contract with a non-NBA team, the team retains the player's draft rights for one year after the player's obligation to the non-NBA team ends. Essentially, the clock stops as long as the player plays pro ball outside the NBA. Players are not included in the team's team salary during the regular season while the player is under contract with a non-NBA team.
* If the player was still eligible to play in college before he was drafted, the team retains the player's draft rights until the draft the player would have entered had he not left college early. For example, if a team drafts a college sophomore in 2005, they retain his draft rights until the date of the 2007 draft. Note that the current NCAA rules state that players lose their NCAA eligibility if they are drafted, so the player could not return or go on to play college ball.
* For all other players, the team retains the player's draft rights until the date of the next draft.

In any of the above cases, if the team does not sign the player in the allotted time, the player can enter the next draft. If the team that selects the player in the next draft doesn't sign him either, he becomes a rookie free agent.

I don't see any mention of "foreign" or "American". There is no difference. Either one has to sit out a year if the NBA team doesn't offer them a contract.

[younggunsmn]

The draft rules exist for American players too. There is no double standard. And they exist to encourage competition - whether they do or not is arguable, but its better than they alternative. Without a draft the best players would sign with NY and LA and Chicago.

In Euroleague since 1999, 7 teams have made the championship game (out of 26). In the NBA, that number is 12 (out of 30). Neither is particularly competitive, but at least the NBA has a system that tries to encourage it.

American players are not prevented from playing in the NBA under draft rules if the team that drafted them does not sign them or trade them. Foreign players are. Fact. That is both Draconian and a double standard.

Also, the NBA league is dominated by the Celtics and Lakers. The Euroleague has been much more competitive than the NBA, which has been dominated by two teams. So trying to use a history lesson of what each league had in terms of number of competitive teams is pointless. It also has nothing to do with the issue.

There is no double standard, the CBA states that as long as a team OFFERS a contract to any draft pick (from ANY country) it owns the rights to said player until such a time as said player has not played in a FIBA-approved league for one year. Then they can re-enter the draft, and if they sit another year out they are free agents.

European players being subject to huge buyouts which keep them from the NBA is no fault of the NBA, it is entirely a construct of european leagues. The NBA sets a limit on buyout payments precisely because not doing so would create a system where foreign players were sold to the highest bidder instead of being drafted (in essence a european system).

The absurdity of saying the NBA is dominated by the celtics and lakers shows your profound ignorance about the NBA. Look at how competitive the playoffs were this year, how many series went to 6 or 7 games. There are also very competitive teams like Phoenix and Dallas that just suck in the playoffs. the celtics were awful for years before they won the title last year.

[KWSN-Men]

No, it is not. NBA teams have to renounce their rights to American players if that player gets another contract offer from an NBA team and the team that owns the draft rights refuses to sign him. The team holding the draft rights then has to make an offer or renounce the rights.

For foreign players they can simply hold the player hostage permanently. It's quite interesting to know that people consider this exactly the same thing.

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#Q42

* If the player is already under contract to, or signs a contract with a non-NBA team, the team retains the player's draft rights for one year after the player's obligation to the non-NBA team ends. Essentially, the clock stops as long as the player plays pro ball outside the NBA. Players are not included in the team's team salary during the regular season while the player is under contract with a non-NBA team.
* If the player was still eligible to play in college before he was drafted, the team retains the player's draft rights until the draft the player would have entered had he not left college early. For example, if a team drafts a college sophomore in 2005, they retain his draft rights until the date of the 2007 draft. Note that the current NCAA rules state that players lose their NCAA eligibility if they are drafted, so the player could not return or go on to play college ball.
* For all other players, the team retains the player's draft rights until the date of the next draft.

In any of the above cases, if the team does not sign the player in the allotted time, the player can enter the next draft. If the team that selects the player in the next draft doesn't sign him either, he becomes a rookie free agent.

I don't see any mention of "foreign" or "American". There is no difference. Either one has to sit out a year if the NBA team doesn't offer them a contract.

So according to you, since you are unaware of the rule I am talking about, there is no difference. Glad to know. I won't bother wasting any more time trying to explain it to you.

[KWSN-Men]

The draft rules exist for American players too. There is no double standard. And they exist to encourage competition - whether they do or not is arguable, but its better than they alternative. Without a draft the best players would sign with NY and LA and Chicago.

In Euroleague since 1999, 7 teams have made the championship game (out of 26). In the NBA, that number is 12 (out of 30). Neither is particularly competitive, but at least the NBA has a system that tries to encourage it.

American players are not prevented from playing in the NBA under draft rules if the team that drafted them does not sign them or trade them. Foreign players are. Fact. That is both Draconian and a double standard.

Also, the NBA league is dominated by the Celtics and Lakers. The Euroleague has been much more competitive than the NBA, which has been dominated by two teams. So trying to use a history lesson of what each league had in terms of number of competitive teams is pointless. It also has nothing to do with the issue.

There is no double standard, the CBA states that as long as a team OFFERS a contract to any draft pick (from ANY country) it owns the rights to said player until such a time as said player has not played in a FIBA-approved league for one year. Then they can re-enter the draft, and if they sit another year out they are free agents.

European players being subject to huge buyouts which keep them from the NBA is no fault of the NBA, it is entirely a construct of european leagues. The NBA sets a limit on buyout payments precisely because not doing so would create a system where foreign players were sold to the highest bidder instead of being drafted (in essence a european system).

The absurdity of saying the NBA is dominated by the celtics and lakers shows your profound ignorance about the NBA. Look at how competitive the playoffs were this year, how many series went to 6 or 7 games. There are also very competitive teams like Phoenix and Dallas that just suck in the playoffs. the celtics were awful for years before they won the title last year.

What exactly is it that you don't grasp here?

See Luis Scola and David Andersen. It's really something to know that a so-called "Euroleague homer" knows NBA rules much better than self-described "NBA fans", the same ones dubbing others "Euroleague homers".

Absurdity that I said the NBA was dominated by the Lakers and the Celtics? Let's see here, an argument was made that the Euroleague was not as competitive as the NBA because it had less teams dominating the finals. I pointed out that the NBA is far more dominated by just two teams in that regard. I was saying that was a pointless argument and that it also had nothing to do with Rubio's status, which it does not.

And now I am being "absurd"? Wow, that's just ridiculous. You are just purposely trying to be rude now.

[Genjuro]

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#Q42

* If the player is already under contract to, or signs a contract with a non-NBA team, the team retains the player's draft rights for one year after the player's obligation to the non-NBA team ends. Essentially, the clock stops as long as the player plays pro ball outside the NBA. Players are not included in the team's team salary during the regular season while the player is under contract with a non-NBA team.
* If the player was still eligible to play in college before he was drafted, the team retains the player's draft rights until the draft the player would have entered had he not left college early. For example, if a team drafts a college sophomore in 2005, they retain his draft rights until the date of the 2007 draft. Note that the current NCAA rules state that players lose their NCAA eligibility if they are drafted, so the player could not return or go on to play college ball.
* For all other players, the team retains the player's draft rights until the date of the next draft.

In any of the above cases, if the team does not sign the player in the allotted time, the player can enter the next draft. If the team that selects the player in the next draft doesn't sign him either, he becomes a rookie free agent.

I don't see any mention of "foreign" or "American". There is no difference. Either one has to sit out a year if the NBA team doesn't offer them a contract.

Actually, I think that if you are not under contract with any other team in a certain moment of the year (probably July 1st), and the team that drafted you doesn't offer you a contract (a tender offer, I believe), you become a free agent right away.

The thing with Scola, Andersen and many other guys is that they were under contract permanently for many many years. And anyway, many of those guys wouldn't play for the league minimum, which I think it's the amount of the tender offer for second round picks.

Another thing would be if there's no agreement for the contract (the player wants more money or whatever). Then you have to wait one year without playing proffesionaly to become a free agent or being able to enter the draft again.

Of course, being American or foreign doesn't change anything.

[casey]

So according to you, since you are unaware of the rule I am talking about, there is no difference. Glad to know. I won't bother wasting any more time trying to explain it to you.

You haven't even started trying to explain it to me. If there's some rule that I'm unaware of, please, educate me. It looks to me like you're just making stuff up. If you're not, please correct me, show me how I'm wrong.

[Genjuro]

What exactly is it that you don't grasp here?

See Luis Scola and David Andersen. It's really something to know that a so-called "Euroleague homer" knows NBA rules much better than self-described "NBA fans", the same ones dubbing others "Euroleague homers".

Could you just write down your imaginary NBA rules here so we can move on?

[younggunsmn]

This is yet another example of outright anti-american racism.

The site mods have explained that "American" is not a race. They have also explained that "Spanish" and "European" are not a race. This is the explanation site mods here give of their world view point and they set site policy to it.

And I have said nothing "anti-American". If you can provide any place I said something against the country of the United States please do, otherwise kindly stop attempting to bait flame wars and rudely labeling people things like "anti-American".

Whether race or nationality,
you are insulting every american on this board with your "ugly american" comments, and your other crap earlier in the thread. I will not stoop to the point of throwing out anti-european stereotypes at you because I believe you are a unique self-deluded bigot and there have been many europeans who have passed through this board who handle themselves with class and dignity (and actually contribute something).

[KWSN-Men]

Of course, being American or foreign doesn't change anything.

Of course it does. How many American players are UNDER CONTRACT with a team outside the United States when they are drafted by an NBA team? Even Brandon Jennings was not obligated to a contract as he was given the ability to simply cancel his contract.

The only player that even comes to mind is Calathes. And guess what? Calathes has an NBA opt out in his contract. Why? Because he's both American and Greek, making his case unique. Rubio, Andersen, Scola didn't get NBA opt outs because they were not Americans.

If Calathes was just Greek on the other hand, Dallas could keep his rights forever and not even worry about it.

[nilo]

Hi younggunsmn,

"Ricky has 2 things going in his favor:
1. court case
2. playing for joventut this year (and they get paid nothing for the buyout).

The longer this drags out the better the chances he ends up playing in the NBA this year.
Ultimately what happens depends upon how badly ricky wants to come to the NBA.

Ricky offering to pay a 3 million (US) buyout shows without a doubt that his first choice is to come to the NBA.

"Selling" his rights to another spanish club is appealing to joventut because it will probably garner them more money, and it may be slightly more appealing to ricky from a financial perspective to playing another year for joventut (provided is is only a 2 year contract with NO buyout for the 3rd year). But no team in their right mind will do this unless ricky wants to play there.

As we get closer to the court date and then the start of the season there is a good chance joventut will lower the buyout amount or at least negotiate. Trying to sell him to other spanish teams is the next step in this poker match.

Joventut also faces the stigma of being the team that kept ricky from the NBA. They are going to have a harder time signing young players if they gain the reputation of not being open to negotiating buyouts.

Also, with respect to minutes, we can offer him 32+. In euroleague, if I'm not mistaken, the bench plays alot more and starters only play 25-28 mins. Worst case for me is that he is sold to another spanish team and plays a backup role of only 15 mins per game.

I've read that Alberto Miralles had a similar lawsuit against joventut and he lost his arbitration hearing. Perhaps Ricky is different because he signed his deal at 14? genjuro maybe you can shed some light on this, because precedents could be important here"

I mostly agree with your point here, apart with some details. It is not clear at all that Rubio has such a clear case against Joventud. Looking at other cases like the Miralles one (and others) it seems that the most he could get is a reduction not as big as paying $3 million. So I would say that Joventud is cool about that case. (The case has date for october now which also plays in favor of Joventud) I agree though that the longer all this takes the more chances to play this year in the NBA. Unless that by November the Wolves don't find that cool to incorporate a new player.

I don't think that holding Rubio from going to the NBA is going to harm at all Joventud in any sense. For many reasons. To start with they don't go looking for young players to sign. They "make them". Sop for a kid of 11, 14 or 16 years to have doubts about signing because that might make difficult your jump to the NBA is not very realistic. On the other hand in Spain there is rather the common opinion among teams, coaches and bball institutions that these buyouts are necessary and something to be respected in other to protect the work that teams like Joventud do creating these players.

Joventud can not gain such a reputation, all teams do the same. Navarro, Scola, and others had to wait years before they could go go to the NBA for these same policies in other teams.

The bottom line is simple I think. Rubio really wants to go this year to the NBA. That's why he is willing to risk, that's why he went to draft and even if things turned not exactly in the easiest way to make it possible I think he and his agents are going to keep trying it until the very last moment.

[KWSN-Men]

So according to you, since you are unaware of the rule I am talking about, there is no difference. Glad to know. I won't bother wasting any more time trying to explain it to you.

You haven't even started trying to explain it to me. If there's some rule that I'm unaware of, please, educate me. It looks to me like you're just making stuff up. If you're not, please correct me, show me how I'm wrong.

I have stated it over and over and over and explained it to you over and over and over. I have even given you the two cases where it has happened and it is well known.

LUIS SCOLA
DAVID ANDERSEN

If you come back once again with telling me I am making stuff up, I am putting you on ignore. If you still refuse to acknowledge the difference in the league rule then please kindly do NOT send another post directed towards me about. Otherwise I am going to have to ignore you.

[deeney0]

Of course, being American or foreign doesn't change anything.

Of course it does. How many American players are UNDER CONTRACT with a team outside the United States when they are drafted by an NBA team? Even Brandon Jennings was not obligated to a contract as he was given the ability to simply cancel his contract.

The only player that even comes to mind is Calathes. And guess what? Calathes has an NBA opt out in his contract. Why? Because he's both American and Greek, making his case unique. Rubio, Andersen, Scola didn't get NBA opt outs because they were not Americans.

If Calathes was just Greek on the other hand, Dallas could keep his rights forever and not even worry about it.

You said it yourself, Calathes has an NBA opt out in his contract. So it has nothing to do with his nationality.

[younggunsmn]

the only thing preventing scola from playing here was his euro contract. what part of this don't you understand? he could have signed with the spurs at any time were it not for his buyout, that's why it took him so long to come over.

read the coon cba faq on this site and then come back and admit you are wrong.
rudeness does not begin to explain my contempt for the way you post or your alleged NBA knowledge.

[KWSN-Men]

This is yet another example of outright anti-american racism.

The site mods have explained that "American" is not a race. They have also explained that "Spanish" and "European" are not a race. This is the explanation site mods here give of their world view point and they set site policy to it.

And I have said nothing "anti-American". If you can provide any place I said something against the country of the United States please do, otherwise kindly stop attempting to bait flame wars and rudely labeling people things like "anti-American".

Whether race or nationality,
you are insulting every american on this board with your "ugly american" comments, and your other crap earlier in the thread. I will not stoop to the point of throwing out anti-european stereotypes at you because I believe you are a unique self-deluded bigot and there have been many europeans who have passed through this board who handle themselves with class and dignity (and actually contribute something).

If you make such accusations against someone you have to provide the proof to back it up. So either provide my racist and anti-American comments, my "bigoted" comments, my "insults to every American in this board", etc. or you can explain yourself why you think it's OK to call someone a racist, bigot, anti-American, etc. when they are not one.

You can kindly explain to the site mods how calling someone all those things without any proof or any statements or even one iota or shred of anything to that effect is acceptable. You can explain how the site rules against calling someone things like a bigot, etc. don't apply to you. And you can explain to the whole board here how only you are immune to site rules.

Or are you suggesting that any of us here can call you a racist bigot also?

[deeney0]

So according to you, since you are unaware of the rule I am talking about, there is no difference. Glad to know. I won't bother wasting any more time trying to explain it to you.

You haven't even started trying to explain it to me. If there's some rule that I'm unaware of, please, educate me. It looks to me like you're just making stuff up. If you're not, please correct me, show me how I'm wrong.

I have stated it over and over and over and explained it to you over and over and over. I have even given you the two cases where it has happened and it is well known.

LUIS SCOLA
DAVID ANDERSEN

If you come back once again with telling me I am making stuff up, I am putting you on ignore. If you still refuse to acknowledge the difference in the league rule then please kindly do NOT send another post directed towards me about. Otherwise I am going to have to ignore you.

Citing examples is not citing rules. casey pulled the relevant rule from the CBA and showed you that you are mistaken.

Scola refused to sign with the Spurs because he was under contract with his European team. The Spurs tried to negotiate a buyout. If Scola had sat out basketball for a year, he'd be free to sign with any NBA team. That's not bias or a double standard.

[casey]

I have stated it over and over and over and explained it to you over and over and over. I have even given you the two cases where it has happened and it is well known.

LUIS SCOLA
DAVID ANDERSEN

If you come back once again with telling me I am making stuff up, I am putting you on ignore. If you still refuse to acknowledge the difference in the league rule then please kindly do NOT send another post directed towards me about. Otherwise I am going to have to ignore you.

I never said you were making stuff up. I said it looked like it, and I politely asked you to explain to me how that is not the case. Explain to me the difference in the rules. Explain to me how being an American makes any difference. And all you did was write two players names. That tells me nothing.

[gensu3k1]

KWSN, who was the president who met with you and your mom after you got those high IQ scores?

[KWSN-Men]

the only thing preventing scola from playing here was his euro contract. what part of this don't you understand? he could have signed with the spurs at any time were it not for his buyout, that's why it took him so long to come over.

read the coon cba faq on this site and then come back and admit you are wrong.
rudeness does not begin to explain my contempt for the way you post or your alleged NBA knowledge.

Apparently it's too much for you to actually look up what happened with Scola and what the Spurs situation with him actually was. Rather than learn the facts and truth of the matter you would just instead like to call others "racist anti-American bigots". I am placing you on ignore.

[KWSN-Men]

I have stated it over and over and over and explained it to you over and over and over. I have even given you the two cases where it has happened and it is well known.

LUIS SCOLA
DAVID ANDERSEN

If you come back once again with telling me I am making stuff up, I am putting you on ignore. If you still refuse to acknowledge the difference in the league rule then please kindly do NOT send another post directed towards me about. Otherwise I am going to have to ignore you.

I never said you were making stuff up. I said it looked like it, and I politely asked you to explain to me how that is not the case. Explain to me the difference in the rules. Explain to me how being an American makes any difference. And all you did was write two players names. That tells me nothing.

Is it an acceptable etiquette where you are from to say "it looks like you are making things up" to someone that knows something you do not? I sincerely hope not.