2020 NBA Draft Prospects: Thread II

[_AIJ_]

This would be a long one month..

[Macwolf527]

Read on Twitter

?s=21

This is the important part of what he said:

Now, are there some issues here with his potential fit with D’Angelo Russell? Yeah, maybe I mean, they’re both kind of ball-in-hand point guards and haven’t been too enthusiastic about playing defense. But I think because of their heights, I do think it’s possible for them to play together, if they can kind of work out how to be comfortable playing off the ball some of the time.

I don’t necessarily see that as a as a deal breaker for them, especially at the point they’re at, which it’s not like they’re not trying to refine their chemistry for a run at the championship right now. Right? They’re just trying to build up enough talent to have a halfway decent team. And until you get to that point, I think, I think you don’t really worry about fit issues and things like that as much. You’re just they’re still in town accumulation face, and they need to continue that.

This has been my argument for awhile now. And I think that logic frustrates some people, as I think the perception is that a No. 1 pick needs to stay with that franchise for their entire career. Here's the list of No. 1 picks to play for one franchise, going back 20 seasons: Zion Williamson, DeAndre Ayton, Ben Simmons, Karl-Anthony Towns, John Wall, Yao Ming. Going back another decade, the only player you add is Tim Duncan. And I believe the next player added to the list is David Robinson.

Whoever is drafted at No. 1 is probably going to change teams at some point. Worrying about roster fit seems pretty pointless to me.

I think this raises some interesting points. Even to the effect of thinking beyond Towns. I’ve never thought personally that Towns was capable of being the #1 on a championship team. I’ve loved to be proven wrong, but typically these type of players move the needle far more than Towns has in his career.

Now, the argument can be made that Thibs set the Wolves back a few years with the Butler trade and debacle. But, if that’s the case, now is the time for Towns to prove it wrong. Barring a major injury to the squad’s core, they need to sniff the playoffs this year or I’m all for moving on from Towns as the team’s franchise player.

With that in mind, maybe this years pick is about what the team will look like without Towns. From that vantage point, I could see Ball or Wiseman as the #1 pick, with Ball having the edge. I still think Edwards is the more likely pick void of a trade.

[Jedzz]

I think the perception is that a No. 1 pick needs to stay with that franchise for their entire career. Here's the list of No. 1 picks to play for one franchise, going back 20 seasons: Zion Williamson, DeAndre Ayton, Ben Simmons, Karl-Anthony Towns, John Wall, Yao Ming. Going back another decade, the only player you add is Tim Duncan. And I believe the next player added to the list is David Robinson.

Whoever is drafted at No. 1 is probably going to change teams at some point. Worrying about roster fit seems pretty pointless to me.

You don't care about the next 4 years of time?

Former #1 overalls also fit your data set because they were total busts, lots of them.
Former #1 overalls also fit your data because they got career injured early.
They also fit your data set because they just wanted to play elsewhere or got higher offers elsewhere to leave. As long as your franchise isn't complete idiots (good read) like Orlando was with say O'neal, you could get 3 to 4 fantastic initial years from a player and if you know you won't offer them even half market value or you know they want to move on then you trade for a fantastic value at that time. That however isn't at all likely for a pure potential choice without proven shooting skills that you have to develop for 4 years or more.

If you aren't trying to find a player to already help for the next three years then either trade the picks for a very good established player to help, or trade Towns/Dlo right now and start the rebuild. I care about the next 4 years not being a waste of everyone's time. They have two picks in the first round, three picks in the top33 including #1 overall. If they can't even find a Robinson, Herro, Nunn, Murray, Doncic etc type young player that can already play high level early on, then they suck at drafting and this will never amount to anything anyway. They could trade the #1 overall and still draft some potential guys later. They can draft super potential and possibly get a better player for now later in the draft, sure. I would go for that if I didn't think that no matter what this team will start a #1 overall no matter if the #17 is better or not.

O'neal btw, sucked at his FT numbers, had questionable defensive effort in college, already played 3 years of college ball, was 20 going on 21 when drafted, was already a +.600s TS and Efg % player in college, apparently all red flags to the great couch draft minds of today. Orlando could have not only got his 27ppg his first 4 seasons, but they could have taken many optional teams to the trade value cleaners moving him after 3+ years instead of what they did. The Wolves have chances to find a significant performer, the best chance and choice of this draft to get someone to perform highly right now with Towns/Dlo - become relevant in this league for 4 years. If it all fails to achieve much besides deep playoff runs, trade them for a rebuild 3 to 4 years from now. The same relative time it will take to truly develop a potential project that you pick on unrelated team fit and hyped potential now that you are talking about as future trade bait anyway.

[Klomp]

Teams always want to throw out names to see who nibbles, but I would bet the majority already have a pretty good idea who the number one will be.

I don't think that's the case at all....at least not this year.

Scouting staffs have guys they like, but coaching staffs and GMs don't really start paying super close attention until March Madness and after.

[Jedzz]

This year is obviously different. Especially since this team wasn't even in the bubble. They've had all spring, summer and now fall to dig, dig, dig. If they only researched deeply on a small set of players by now the players they liked the most in March they've gone through hate stages/more like stages/and are circling back to hate again. Hopefully they used the time to cast a wide net.

[Dewey]

Teams always want to throw out names to see who nibbles, but I would bet the majority already have a pretty good idea who the number one will be.

I don't think that's the case at all....at least not this year.

Scouting staffs have guys they like, but coaching staffs and GMs don't really start paying super close attention until March Madness and after.

Feel free to disagree, but there is no multi-$million/multi-$billion company in the modern era that are just gonna dick around and suddenly pay attention ... guaranteed they all have a pretty good idea who the top dogs are - it don’t mean they are right, but they are dialed in and likely even forecasting prospects for 2021 ...

[KGdaBom]

Read on Twitter

?s=21

However, if Russell doesn't like the idea it doesn't matter if Hollinger does.

[Midw35t]

Give me Wiseman please.

Watch on YouTube

[Klomp]

I think the perception is that a No. 1 pick needs to stay with that franchise for their entire career. Here's the list of No. 1 picks to play for one franchise, going back 20 seasons: Zion Williamson, DeAndre Ayton, Ben Simmons, Karl-Anthony Towns, John Wall, Yao Ming. Going back another decade, the only player you add is Tim Duncan. And I believe the next player added to the list is David Robinson.

Whoever is drafted at No. 1 is probably going to change teams at some point. Worrying about roster fit seems pretty pointless to me.

You don't care about the next 4 years of time?

Former #1 overalls also fit your data set because they were total busts, lots of them.
Former #1 overalls also fit your data because they got career injured early.
They also fit your data set because they just wanted to play elsewhere or got higher offers elsewhere to leave. As long as your franchise isn't complete idiots (good read) like Orlando was with say O'neal, you could get 3 to 4 fantastic initial years from a player and if you know you won't offer them even half market value or you know they want to move on then you trade for a fantastic value at that time. That however isn't at all likely for a pure potential choice without proven shooting skills that you have to develop for 4 years or more.

If you aren't trying to find a player to already help for the next three years then either trade the picks for a very good established player to help, or trade Towns/Dlo right now and start the rebuild. I care about the next 4 years not being a waste of everyone's time. They have two picks in the first round, three picks in the top33 including #1 overall. If they can't even find a Robinson, Herro, Nunn, Murray, Doncic etc type young player that can already play high level early on, then they suck at drafting and this will never amount to anything anyway. They could trade the #1 overall and still draft some potential guys later. They can draft super potential and possibly get a better player for now later in the draft, sure. I would go for that if I didn't think that no matter what this team will start a #1 overall no matter if the #17 is better or not.

That's basically the argument I'm making. People are terrified to draft LaMelo Ball because they see him as a poor fit next to D'Angelo Russell. My point is that he's arguably the prospect with the best trade value. Trades are not always able to be consummated before the draft, so they may have to pick someone at No. 1. Take the one who could get you the best return regardless of the current roster fit, because none of these prospects are likely to be a major help over the next four years.

[thinktank]

I agree. Rosas is going to take the most valuable asset he can get at 1, should he not find an amenable partner to trade down. He may even prefer 1 to trading down. It doesn’t matter what the players on his team think or feel or want. The players don’t run the team, nor should they.

[chaimer]

Agree, Rosas could care less about Russell's opinion on drafting Ball. Russell is not a Top 10 player or a go to guy on a championship team, so don't pay attention and pick BPA, who I believe is Lamelo.

[Jedzz]

I think the perception is that a No. 1 pick needs to stay with that franchise for their entire career. Here's the list of No. 1 picks to play for one franchise, going back 20 seasons: Zion Williamson, DeAndre Ayton, Ben Simmons, Karl-Anthony Towns, John Wall, Yao Ming. Going back another decade, the only player you add is Tim Duncan. And I believe the next player added to the list is David Robinson.

Whoever is drafted at No. 1 is probably going to change teams at some point. Worrying about roster fit seems pretty pointless to me.

You don't care about the next 4 years of time?

Former #1 overalls also fit your data set because they were total busts, lots of them.
Former #1 overalls also fit your data because they got career injured early.
They also fit your data set because they just wanted to play elsewhere or got higher offers elsewhere to leave. As long as your franchise isn't complete idiots (good read) like Orlando was with say O'neal, you could get 3 to 4 fantastic initial years from a player and if you know you won't offer them even half market value or you know they want to move on then you trade for a fantastic value at that time. That however isn't at all likely for a pure potential choice without proven shooting skills that you have to develop for 4 years or more.

If you aren't trying to find a player to already help for the next three years then either trade the picks for a very good established player to help, or trade Towns/Dlo right now and start the rebuild. I care about the next 4 years not being a waste of everyone's time. They have two picks in the first round, three picks in the top33 including #1 overall. If they can't even find a Robinson, Herro, Nunn, Murray, Doncic etc type young player that can already play high level early on, then they suck at drafting and this will never amount to anything anyway. They could trade the #1 overall and still draft some potential guys later. They can draft super potential and possibly get a better player for now later in the draft, sure. I would go for that if I didn't think that no matter what this team will start a #1 overall no matter if the #17 is better or not.

That's basically the argument I'm making. People are terrified to draft LaMelo Ball because they see him as a poor fit next to D'Angelo Russell. My point is that he's arguably the prospect with the best trade value. Trades are not always able to be consummated before the draft, so they may have to pick someone at No. 1. Take the one who could get you the best return regardless of the current roster fit, because none of these prospects are likely to be a major help over the next four years.

That's definitely not what I'm suggesting. I suggest they should already have a trade in place if they aren't able to find a player they want at #1 that can be a part of this system and play with Dlo/Towns. If the hyped 3 aren't their thing, go deeper and "overdraft" someone that does. If you aren't willing to overdraft, then be willing to trade down or comepletely out. The idea of pulling another Dunn draft move that was meant for immediate trade, getting stuck with the guy for a full season and having it create a problem with your current starter, NO thanks! Worse, it could turn into the Wiggins rehash and they will be left with spending ultra minutes trying their hardest to get his value up to par just to move him...stopping any kind of team building.

There's no point in paying Towns/Dlo max contracts if we aren't going to immediately start building something here. Justt randomingly lobbing in talents is not the way to go anymore. Mind you, Ball is a shot in the dark. So they can't get stuck with a nonfit. It will end up visible to everyone and that alone will drop the players value, besides it will be putting him in a bad position to be his best - also dropping his value. have a trade in place or don't choose someone the team can't make the most of long term.

The only way I would really be ok with it is if they are willing to stash the player in a development bench or G role until he's ready to show valuable play. If he's not actually ready, let his draft value carry unimpeded longer term. Don't let his play reduce that value. But nobody wants to do that and so I don't suggest it.

[Biff Cooper]

I agree. Rosas is going to take the most valuable asset he can get at 1, should he not find an amenable partner to trade down. He may even prefer 1 to trading down. It doesn’t matter what the players on his team think or feel or want. The players don’t run the team, nor should they.

If he can't find an amenable partner to trade down, is it safe to say that none of the players are really that valuable?

[Dewey]

We've had a chance to go around the horn with trade scenarios and alternative prospects... Wiseman, Ball, and Edwards are talked about the most. Avdija and Okungwu in bucket #2.

What are the opinions on ...
1. Player Fit
a. Wiseman
b. Edwards
c. Ball

2. Position of Need
a. Wiseman
b. Edwards
c. Ball

3. Player Potential (say 3 years up the road)
a. Wiseman
b. Edwards
c. Ball

In my uneducated opinion ... Ball seems to be "he is what he is" and thats skilled ball dominant PG with size, but weak shooter, OK scorer, and suspect defense. Edwards type guy could have a dramatic impact due to his size/strength and ability to finish, but also suspect defense and motor. Wiseman is a potential 7' freak that can immediately help with rebounding and defense, but he still a more raw-type player that could go many different ways.

I've been starting to roll around back towards Wiseman ... I remember KG was a high school kid we rolled the dice and turned out ok. My primary concern (also one of KATS weaknesses) is his ability to defend away from the basket in order to co-exist with KAT. Offensively, more doable. Still, Wiseman is already a good passer, decent FT shooter, decent ball handler, very good athlete that can hit the outlets, and run the floor.

[Baseline81]

Has anyone heard or read whether prospect workouts will take place?

[KGdaBom]

I agree. Rosas is going to take the most valuable asset he can get at 1, should he not find an amenable partner to trade down. He may even prefer 1 to trading down. It doesn’t matter what the players on his team think or feel or want. The players don’t run the team, nor should they.

This is the NBA. The players do run the team whether they should or not. Unhappy players is a recipe for disaster.

[KGdaBom]

Agree, Rosas could care less about Russell's opinion on drafting Ball. Russell is not a Top 10 player or a go to guy on a championship team, so don't pay attention and pick BPA, who I believe is Lamelo.

If Russell is unhappy so is KAT. So picking Ball makes our two top players unhappy and is not a recipe for success. Also Ball is far from being the best player.

[Baseline81]

For the Wiseman fans:

[urinesane]

This is the important part of what he said:

Now, are there some issues here with his potential fit with D’Angelo Russell? Yeah, maybe I mean, they’re both kind of ball-in-hand point guards and haven’t been too enthusiastic about playing defense. But I think because of their heights, I do think it’s possible for them to play together, if they can kind of work out how to be comfortable playing off the ball some of the time.

I don’t necessarily see that as a as a deal breaker for them, especially at the point they’re at, which it’s not like they’re not trying to refine their chemistry for a run at the championship right now. Right? They’re just trying to build up enough talent to have a halfway decent team. And until you get to that point, I think, I think you don’t really worry about fit issues and things like that as much. You’re just they’re still in town accumulation face, and they need to continue that.

This has been my argument for awhile now. And I think that logic frustrates some people, as I think the perception is that a No. 1 pick needs to stay with that franchise for their entire career. Here's the list of No. 1 picks to play for one franchise, going back 20 seasons: Zion Williamson, DeAndre Ayton, Ben Simmons, Karl-Anthony Towns, John Wall, Yao Ming. Going back another decade, the only player you add is Tim Duncan. And I believe the next player added to the list is David Robinson.

Whoever is drafted at No. 1 is probably going to change teams at some point. Worrying about roster fit seems pretty pointless to me.

The entire argument against Wiseman was fit though wasn't it? I think he has the highest potential of the three we've been discussing AND is the most NBA ready. If we don't simply want to be a development team for the #1 pick before they go somewhere else, it makes more sense to pick Wiseman, not only for his ability to have a noticeable impact in his first contract (if not rookie season) and help the team WIN. Which is exactly what they need to do to stop KAT/DLo from going somewhere else after this contract.

In my opinion picking Ball or Edwards would pretty much guarantee we are a lottery team this next season and in 4 years maybe a team competing for the 8th spot in the West (with no real chance to make a deep run). Which would most definitely mean KAT/DLo are gone after their current contracts and we are back to yet another rebuild.

With Wiseman I see the chance to actually build a team that can contend, maybe not for a championship (there is so much that needs to go right for that to happen), but realistic potential to reach the Western Conference Finals by Wiseman's 4th year.

Again, I may be wrong about Wiseman, but the main argument against him was fit, so to have that be brushed off so easily when it comes to Ball seems weird. Ball needs to develop his game WAAAAAAY more than Wiseman just to make a positive contribution to an NBA team, let alone help a team become a consistent winner.

[Baseline81]

The entire argument against Wiseman was fit though wasn't it? I think he has the highest potential of the three we've been discussing AND is the most NBA ready. If we don't simply want to be a development team for the #1 pick before they go somewhere else, it makes more sense to pick Wiseman, not only for his ability to have a noticeable impact in his first contract (if not rookie season) and help the team WIN. Which is exactly what they need to do to stop KAT/DLo from going somewhere else after this contract.

In my opinion picking Ball or Edwards would pretty much guarantee we are a lottery team this next season and in 4 years maybe a team competing for the 8th spot in the West (with no real chance to make a deep run). Which would most definitely mean KAT/DLo are gone after their current contracts and we are back to yet another rebuild.

With Wiseman I see the chance to actually build a team that can contend, maybe not for a championship (there is so much that needs to go right for that to happen), but realistic potential to reach the Western Conference Finals by Wiseman's 4th year.

Again, I may be wrong about Wiseman, but the main argument against him was fit, so to have that be brushed off so easily when it comes to Ball seems weird. Ball needs to develop his game WAAAAAAY more than Wiseman just to make a positive contribution to an NBA team, let alone help a team become a consistent winner.

Do you think Wiseman and Towns can play on the floor together? If so, who defends the opposing PF, likely a player on the perimeter?

EDIT: See shangrila's post on the next page.