2016 draft thread: Part 2

[gaspar]

Hield/Murray or bust for me. I'll be devastated if those guys go 3-4.

I can't think of a reason why Phoenix would draft either of them but stranger things have happened I suppose.

If McDonough thinks that Murray is the best player available at #4, he will draft him without blinking. We were one of the worst teams in the league last season for a reason. We need talent at every position. If Bender is gone when we pick and McDonough thinks that Murray (or Hield/Dunn) is a tier above Chriss or Brown there's no reason to draft for a need when we have another lottery pick and can draft Ellenson, Davis, Skal or Sabonis at #13.

Also, there's the fact that Murray is Canadian (Nash and Triano) and went to Kentucky (Bledsoe, Knight, Goodwin and Booker).

[Sugarless]

I can't think of a reason why Phoenix would draft either of them but stranger things have happened I suppose.

If they think Murray or Booker can play point full-time, I definitely could see them doing that.

Murray & Booker shooting would be insane but their defense would be disastrous.

Yep, just as Murray and LaVine, but ultimately not that many people care about such an unimportant part of the game as defense. That is until we get destroyed night in and night out, of course.

[Sugarless]

(Hartman)  What position do you need to make this team stronger and be a playoff contender?

(Thibs)  I think we need size, we need toughness, and we need shooting.

Welcome home, Buddy.

[Mrva]

(Hartman)  What position do you need to make this team stronger and be a playoff contender?

(Thibs)  I think we need size, we need toughness, and we need shooting.

Welcome home, Buddy.

Actually, Dunn fits the first two criterias for his position; Hield fits 2nd and 3rd

[phonzadellika]

(Hartman)  What position do you need to make this team stronger and be a playoff contender?

(Thibs)  I think we need size, we need toughness, and we need shooting.

Welcome home, Buddy.

Actually, Dunn fits the first two criterias for his position; Hield fits 2nd and 3rd

We need the doctor from human centipede to combine them to form Buddy Dunn.

[shangrila]

Welcome home, Buddy.

Actually, Dunn fits the first two criterias for his position; Hield fits 2nd and 3rd

We need the doctor from human centipede to combine them to form Buddy Dunn.

I'd prefer the machine from the Fly to genetically splice them instead of, you know, stitching one of their mouths to the others butt.

[Krapinsky]

1. Because he was a ridiculous shooter, not because he was amazing at creating.

Ridiculous shooters are by themselves great at creating. Watch Klay. He wreaks havoc on a defense because all he has to do is move off the ball to find an open spot. The defense has to chase/rotate to him and it creates open looks for everyone else. We don't have a guy like that and I can't remember ever having one.

2. Porzingis was a year older than Bender last year. Porzingis wasn't even a consensus top ten pick in 2014 before he pulled out of the draft. Bender is projected by a lot of scouts as further ahead of Porzingis at the same age.

"Scouts" seems like another word for "media hype" to me. I'm sure some scouts like him, but I bet the actual consensus is rather mixed. I can't help but remember when Rubio was considered the future of the sport at the PG position when he was 18. We all bought it. I also remember taking him over Curry - a 3 year college player that was only good at shooting.

3. Can't help you if you are lost. Seems like rather easy logic. If Tyus Jones was a projected top 5 pick last year and didn't play this year, then yeah your comparison would make sense. You're comparing Buddy Hield and Dragan Bender to Kris Dunn and Tyus Jones? Do you not see the difference in the level of prospects that they are? Three of those guys are projected top 8 picks. Then one was projected to go mid to very late first.

I pointing holes in your logic. It just doesn't make sense to me. Two guys have wildly different circumstances. I don't see why one is better than the other. You can prefer a younger guy that is all potential and hasn't done anything or you can prefer an older guy that has reached his potential already and was the best player among his colleagues. I'll take the latter. Thomas Robinson, John Henson, Perry Jones III were all drafted over Draymond Green because of their perceived "upside."

4. Recency bias. Ignoring past evidence is a good way to pick a guy who dominated lower level players.

I'll take the guy who dominated against lower level competition vs. the guy that stood in the corner for 15 minutes a night. He's dominating my swishing 35 foot jumpers. He's not overpowering people. Buddy's skills are going to translate against better competition.

5. Overvaluing proven older players is a good was to miss out on the Kristaps, or guys like the Giannis and Gobert slipping in the draft.

And undervaluing proven older players is a good way to miss out on guys like Green, Curry, Thompson, Lillard, Butler, Lowry and taking guys like Jan Vesely, Waiters, Thomas Robinson, Thabeet, etc.

[Krapinsky]

(Hartman)  What position do you need to make this team stronger and be a playoff contender?

(Thibs)  I think we need size, we need toughness, and we need shooting.

Welcome home, Buddy.

Actually, Dunn fits the first two criterias for his position; Hield fits 2nd and 3rd

My sense when he says "size" is that he is referring to guys in the front court at the 3/4/5 positions.

[Crazy-Canuck]

Mentioning robinson goes against your argument, not in support of it.

He wasnt an upside pick, he came out as a junior. He was supposed to be able to contribute sooner than later.

[firyGM]

"Scouts" seems like another word for "media hype" to me. I'm sure some scouts like him, but I bet the actual consensus is rather mixed. I can't help but remember when Rubio was considered the future of the sport at the PG position when he was 18. We all bought it. I also remember taking him over Curry - a 3 year college player that was only good at shooting.

That's why:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pUBUdGVT58[/youtube]

He was 16 there, in the Eurocup final. 51 points, 24 rebounds, 12 assists, 7 steals and midfield buzzer beater to force overtime (Do you understand "force overtime"? I don't know if it's a Spanish expression).

Buzzer beater: 1:23:40

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRLV4os3ums[/youtube]

That's the same video but warm-up appears there. Ricky Rubio dunk, 0:30. 3pt, 1:30.

When he was 18, Olympic Games:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5mpST596qU[/youtube]

Pay attention to his 3pt shoot, 0:05.

It was normal the "media hype" for him, however he was 5# drafted. Bender is projected to #3-5#, Bender is the same age that Ricky when Ricky played in Beijing but his stats are very poor compared with Ricky.

[Feilong]

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/celtics/post/_/id/4723260/jamal-murray-at-celtics-workout-im-the-best-player-in-the-draft

[Krapinsky]

Mentioning robinson goes against your argument, not in support of it.

He wasnt an upside pick, he came out as a junior. He was supposed to be able to contribute sooner than later.

Ah yeah. That's OK - it's a dumb argument either way.

[Mattya]

Ridiculous shooters are by themselves great at creating. Watch Klay. He wreaks havoc on a defense because all he has to do is move off the ball to find an open spot. The defense has to chase/rotate to him and it creates open looks for everyone else. We don't have a guy like that and I can't remember ever having one.

Thompson does a lot more offensively that Hield does breaking down defenses or posting up guards smaller than him.

"Scouts" seems like another word for "media hype" to me. I'm sure some scouts like him, but I bet the actual consensus is rather mixed. I can't help but remember when Rubio was considered the future of the sport at the PG position when he was 18. We all bought it. I also remember taking him over Curry - a 3 year college player that was only good at shooting.

Yea, jeez he has only been a consensus top 5 pick in this draft for like 2 years, but what do media people know, lets trust your word for it.

I pointing holes in your logic. It just doesn't make sense to me. Two guys have wildly different circumstances. I don't see why one is better than the other. You can prefer a younger guy that is all potential and hasn't done anything or you can prefer an older guy that has reached his potential already and was the best player among his colleagues. I'll take the latter. Thomas Robinson, John Henson, Perry Jones III were all drafted over Draymond Green because of their perceived "upside."

If by "pointing holes" you mean just repeating Hield is proven over and over, sure. Great points. For all the Draymond Greens, there are hundreds of upperclassmen with intangibles that have done nothing in the league.

I'll take the guy who dominated against lower level competition vs. the guy that stood in the corner for 15 minutes a night. He's dominating my swishing 35 foot jumpers. He's not overpowering people. Buddy's skills are going to translate against better competition.

So you would have taken Hield over Porzingis too.

And undervaluing proven older players is a good way to miss out on guys like Green, Curry, Thompson, Lillard, Butler, Lowry and taking guys like Jan Vesely, Waiters, Thomas Robinson, Thabeet, etc.

or you end up missing on Kawhi Leonard for Jimmer Fredrette, miss on Giannis, Gobert, and Schroeder for Trey Burke, miss on LaVine for McDermott, miss on Nurkic and Jokic for Adreian Payne. WCS for Porzingis like many here thought was Andrea Bargnani. Kaminsky over Winslow, Booker, and Turner.

[Klomp]

Ridiculous shooters are by themselves great at creating. Watch Klay. He wreaks havoc on a defense because all he has to do is move off the ball to find an open spot. The defense has to chase/rotate to him and it creates open looks for everyone else. We don't have a guy like that and I can't remember ever having one.

Thompson does a lot more offensively that Hield does breaking down defenses or posting up guards smaller than him.

Agreed. Thompson doesn't get enough credit for his all-around offensive game.

[Krapinsky]

Ridiculous shooters are by themselves great at creating. Watch Klay. He wreaks havoc on a defense because all he has to do is move off the ball to find an open spot. The defense has to chase/rotate to him and it creates open looks for everyone else. We don't have a guy like that and I can't remember ever having one.

Thompson does a lot more offensively that Hield does breaking down defenses or posting up guards smaller than him.

Agreed. Thompson doesn't get enough credit for his all-around offensive game.

Neither does Buddy.

[Mustinjo]

Thompson does a lot more offensively that Hield does breaking down defenses or posting up guards smaller than him.

Agreed. Thompson doesn't get enough credit for his all-around offensive game.

Neither does Buddy.

Because he doesn't have one. He is as one dimensional as it gets. Sure, that one dimension is very important (shooting) and he's elite in it, but shooting historically doesn't always translate and if that happens to him he has nothing else to fall on.

[Killboard]

I like hield but if you want compare him to klay you should compare him to John Jenkins too.
Scoring is the most difficult Stat to translate, specially for a senior.

[Krapinsky]

Agreed. Thompson doesn't get enough credit for his all-around offensive game.

Neither does Buddy.

Because he doesn't have one. He is as one dimensional as it gets. Sure, that one dimension is very important (shooting) and he's elite in it, but shooting historically doesn't always translate and if that happens to him he has nothing else to fall on.

This chart makes no sense without context. He shot 55% from 2 pt last year but this chart make him look like that's weakness.

[NewWolvesOrder]

I like hield but if you want compare him to klay you should compare him to John Jenkins too.
Scoring is the most difficult Stat to translate, specially for a senior.

Just compared Jenkins and Hield. Damn, their numbers are really similar. Makes you wonder. I guess Buddy has better physical tools and got more rebs and stls.

[Mustinjo]

http://upsidemotor.com/2016/06/10/nba-draft-dragan-bender-denzel-valentine/

Check out #1