Butler has requested a trade, the saga continues

[PharmD]

Pointing out that you used faulty logic is not an ad hominem fwiw

[Reddy83]

Taylor just doesn't understand what it takes to build a winning organization, despite his proclamations in the media. He doesn't understand culture. What I wouldn't give for a Mark Cuban style owner who really loves the game and wants to build a fanbase that loves the team...and invests in it.

How do you balance this position with his success in these areas owning the Lynx?

That's a really good question. To be honest, I don't really follow the WNBA and won't act as though I do. I am someone who follows business and understand Taylor's successes there, however it doesn't invalidate his record with the Timberwolves.

Do you think he was behind the success of the Lynx? Genuine question. I find it hard to believe. More likely that they have a good coach and an immense amount of talent in Augustus, Moore, Whalen, etc. but again it's not something I really know.

I'm looking at his record with the Timberwolves organization since I started watching (early 90's) and noting the repeated, decade long failures to create a consistent culture around the team. Everything changed with one player, though we consistently failed to put a team around him capable of winning. That player has publicly said Taylor doesn't know anything about basketball, and from my situation I couldn't agree more.

Let me ask you this: how would you describe the Minnesota Timberwolves culture? What comes to mind? I think the words that you'll use are not particularly riveting.

[TruthSerum]

He asked me if “I’d opened the books!” LOL!

Btw, you mis-used ad hominem, trying to sound smart! Irony.

Sure, I'm a desperate clinger, talking crazy with my wild conspiracy theories.
But yeah, I totally misused ad hominem because up is down and left is right. Derp.
You are special, my friend. Truly special.

[King Malta]

I've always interpreted Glen saying that moves would need to be made to keep Jimmy as support for the point that Jimmy wanted his maximum possible extension NOW and not at the end of season after a potential injury, hence his original willingness to move to bad teams with space.

[shrink]

I think what Jimmy is getting at is he's telling Thibs to trade Wiggins and pay him. Or, pay the luxury tax and keep all of them. In his mind he deserves top money with KAT..

This is why I think Jimmy doesn’t understand the rules, and his agent isn’t setting him straight.

Even if we could find a trade for Wiggins, there simply isn’t enough cap space left in the league to get far enough under the cap to restructure Jimmy’s deal now. If he truly wanted a restructuring, he would have had to say something in the first few weeks after the trade, before MIN used their cap space and signed Teague, Taj, and Crawford to two year deals. I get that Jimmy wants it, but it’s not something that can reasonably be done under the current CBA rules.

After that happened, he has to wait until the end of this season to get paid, or take the lesser max extension last month.

[TruthSerum]

Pointing out that you used faulty logic is not an ad hominem fwiw

If only that were the case. Fact is only thing shrink has pointed to is what Glen once did over a decade ago. \
#faultylogic

[shrink]

Pointing out that you used faulty logic is not an ad hominem fwiw

If only that were the case. Fact is only thing shrink has pointed to is what Glen once did over a decade ago. \
#faultylogic

You can’t even get one sentence right. Step back from the keyboard - hydrate.

[quote=“shrink”]But you said it’s been a long time, so let’s focus on more recent behavior. Two years ago, he overpaid Thibodeau too to get him here. Last year he gave Wiggins a max deal. This year he’s giving Towns a max deal, with a possible Designated Player Bump[/quote]

[TruthSerum]

Pointing out that you used faulty logic is not an ad hominem fwiw

If only that were the case. Fact is only thing shrink has pointed to is what Glen once did over a decade ago. \
#faultylogic

You can’t even get one sentence right. Step back from the keyboard - hydrate.

Classic deflection and projection. Bravo!

[King Malta]

I don't buy Taylor sanctioning a trade where we send away several young assets and see the team sitting 3rd in the West until we lose said player, only to then decide not to offer him the deal he wants to stay.

Surely he'd have known what we would've needed to pay him when we traded for him (which was in close proximity to the Wiggins deal from memory), then after seeing how effective he was and building a solid surrounding unit, why would he suddenly decide to not pay him, leaving the franchise capped out and bad on the court anyway?

[Nick K]

I think what Jimmy is getting at is he's telling Thibs to trade Wiggins and pay him. Or, pay the luxury tax and keep all of them. In his mind he deserves top money with KAT.

Look at how poorly Thibs has managed the teams recources. Disaster.

Was just listening to Windhorst on Bill Simmons podcast, that was exactly their (informed?) speculation

Butler was one of the guys along with Kemba that got extended in 2015 before the cap spike and are bitter about it

I hadn't heard that podcast. I was just thinking about it in kind of a common sense, 2+2 way from what Jimmy has inferred. What a mess. You would have thought Thibs was all over this Jimmy contract thing right after we acquired him. But he wasn't and he let it get out of control. Thibs has no...ZERO, clue how to administrate the team. Layden comes off as his total stooge.

Glen needs to quit thinking about dollar signs. Since resigning Jimmy is now not an option, Glen has to fire the coach and front office and start all over. It's probably too late to do that now. September was the time for that.

What a shame....we have plenty of talent to be a contending team if we just had the right coach. Look at how well Budenholzer is doing in Milwaukee. I'm jealous. Losing Jimmy now puts us on the outside looking in on the playoffs. Even with Josh Richardson who I like.

[TruthSerum]

I don't buy Taylor sanctioning a trade where we send away several young assets and see the team sitting 3rd in the West until we lose said player, only to then decide not to offer him the deal he wants to stay.

Surely he'd have known what we would've needed to pay him when we traded for him (which was in close proximity to the Wiggins deal from memory), then after seeing how effective he was and building a solid surrounding unit, why would he suddenly decide to not pay him, leaving the franchise capped out and bad on the court anyway?

Hard to say. Likely KAT making all-NBA helped soured his plan a bit. But I can't speak for his previous projections from 2 years ago. All I can do is look to his current projections and make educated guesses using common sense and what's readily available in the media. Only offer Jimmy has received from Glen was 4yrs/$110M. Far as any of us know.

[shrink]

Taylor just doesn't understand what it takes to build a winning organization, despite his proclamations in the media. He doesn't understand culture. What I wouldn't give for a Mark Cuban style owner who really loves the game and wants to build a fanbase that loves the team...and invests in it.

How do you balance this position with his success in these areas owning the Lynx?

That's a really good question. To be honest, I don't really follow the WNBA and won't act as though I do. I am someone who follows business and understand Taylor's successes there, however it doesn't invalidate his record with the Timberwolves.

Do you think he was behind the success of the Lynx? Genuine question. I find it hard to believe. More likely that they have a good coach and an immense amount of talent in Augustus, Moore, Whalen, etc. but again it's not something I really know.

I think that it’s extremely hard for consistent success in professional sports at any level. Injuries can’s be predicted. Determining which prospects will become superstars and which will be mediocre or bust has an element of luck. We want to believe a good front office can pick the future stars out, but it often is up to the athlete to truly become a franchise player. A coach or front office can’t do it for him.

I may have lower expectations for an owner. I don’t think the owner establishes culture, that that comes more from the coach. Iowa nt my owner to do a couple things:

1. Don’t move the franchise
2. Open the checkbook when warranted
3. Make good hiring choices
4. Don’t meddle
5. If you’ve given a guy the resources and he fails repeatedly, be willing to fire the guy

I’m ok with Taylor on 1 and 2. His hiring choices haven’t been bad at the time, except maybe Rambis, but most haven’t worked out. Taylor talks too much (which I like as a fan), but he doesn’t usual meddle. I think he gives people too long a leash though, which seems funny to say considering all the coaching and personnel turnover.

The success the Lynx have had has been historic, and I give a lot of credit to Cheryl Reeve. However, we can’t blame Taylor’s style for the failures of the Wolves, and then say he doesn’t get credit for the Lynx.

[Nick K]

I think what Jimmy is getting at is he's telling Thibs to trade Wiggins and pay him. Or, pay the luxury tax and keep all of them. In his mind he deserves top money with KAT..

This is why I think Jimmy doesn’t understand the rules, and his agent isn’t setting him straight.

Even if we could find a trade for Wiggins, there simply isn’t enough cap space left in the league to get far enough under the cap to restructure Jimmy’s deal now. If he truly wanted a restructuring, he would have had to say something in the first few weeks after the trade, before MIN used their cap space and signed Teague, Taj, and Crawford to two year deals. I get that Jimmy wants it, but it’s not something that can reasonably be done under the current CBA rules.

After that happened, he has to wait until the end of this season to get paid, or take the lesser max extension last month.

Sure there is Shrink, you pay the guy and go into the luxury tax.

[MN7725]

I don't buy Taylor sanctioning a trade where we send away several young assets and see the team sitting 3rd in the West until we lose said player, only to then decide not to offer him the deal he wants to stay.

Surely he'd have known what we would've needed to pay him when we traded for him (which was in close proximity to the Wiggins deal from memory), then after seeing how effective he was and building a solid surrounding unit, why would he suddenly decide to not pay him, leaving the franchise capped out and bad on the court anyway?

Hard to say. Likely KAT making all-NBA helped soured his plan a bit. But I can't speak for his previous projections from 2 years ago. All I can do is look to his current projections and make educated guesses using common sense and what's readily available in the media. Only offer Jimmy has received from Glen was 4yrs/$110M. Far as any of us know.

Even if Taylor doesn't want to pay Butler's next contract for whatever reason as you are thinking, absolutely no reason for Glen to reveal that

Just do the Clippers-Blake move, Butler on long-term contract has a lot of value

[King Malta]

I don't buy Taylor sanctioning a trade where we send away several young assets and see the team sitting 3rd in the West until we lose said player, only to then decide not to offer him the deal he wants to stay.

Surely he'd have known what we would've needed to pay him when we traded for him (which was in close proximity to the Wiggins deal from memory), then after seeing how effective he was and building a solid surrounding unit, why would he suddenly decide to not pay him, leaving the franchise capped out and bad on the court anyway?

Hard to say. Likely KAT making all-NBA helped soured his plan a bit. But I can't speak for his previous projections from 2 years ago. All I can do is look to his current projections and make educated guesses using common sense and what's readily available in the media. Only offer Jimmy has received from Glen was 4yrs/$110M. Far as any of us know.

To be fair though that's all we can really offer now unless we strip the roster down.

It just seems to be a strange move to make if Glen is doing it out of being 'cheap', especially given that he 'spent' a lot of assets to get Jimmy here originally.

I get the feeling Jimmy just doesn't want to be in this city or play with this team but I understand that that's just an assumption on my part.

[shrink]

I think what Jimmy is getting at is he's telling Thibs to trade Wiggins and pay him. Or, pay the luxury tax and keep all of them. In his mind he deserves top money with KAT..

This is why I think Jimmy doesn’t understand the rules, and his agent isn’t setting him straight.

Even if we could find a trade for Wiggins, there simply isn’t enough cap space left in the league to get far enough under the cap to restructure Jimmy’s deal now. If he truly wanted a restructuring, he would have had to say something in the first few weeks after the trade, before MIN used their cap space and signed Teague, Taj, and Crawford to two year deals. I get that Jimmy wants it, but it’s not something that can reasonably be done under the current CBA rules.

After that happened, he has to wait until the end of this season to get paid, or take the lesser max extension last month.

Sure there is Shrink, you pay the guy and go into the luxury tax.

Which we would have, when it was legal at the end of this season.

The luxury tax is not preventing Jimmy from being paid now. It’s the CBA Rule that requires you be under the SALARY CAP to renegotiate a contract mid-season.

[Nick K]

This is why I think Jimmy doesn’t understand the rules, and his agent isn’t setting him straight.

Even if we could find a trade for Wiggins, there simply isn’t enough cap space left in the league to get far enough under the cap to restructure Jimmy’s deal now. If he truly wanted a restructuring, he would have had to say something in the first few weeks after the trade, before MIN used their cap space and signed Teague, Taj, and Crawford to two year deals. I get that Jimmy wants it, but it’s not something that can reasonably be done under the current CBA rules.

After that happened, he has to wait until the end of this season to get paid, or take the lesser max extension last month.

Sure there is Shrink, you pay the guy and go into the luxury tax.

Which we would have, when it was legal at the end of this season.

The luxury tax is not preventing Jimmy from being paid now. It’s the CBA Rule that requires you be under the SALARY CAP to renegotiate a contract mid-season.

Ah, I see. could we not have done this this summer or even September?

[TruthSerum]

I don't buy Taylor sanctioning a trade where we send away several young assets and see the team sitting 3rd in the West until we lose said player, only to then decide not to offer him the deal he wants to stay.

Surely he'd have known what we would've needed to pay him when we traded for him (which was in close proximity to the Wiggins deal from memory), then after seeing how effective he was and building a solid surrounding unit, why would he suddenly decide to not pay him, leaving the franchise capped out and bad on the court anyway?

Hard to say. Likely KAT making all-NBA helped soured his plan a bit. But I can't speak for his previous projections from 2 years ago. All I can do is look to his current projections and make educated guesses using common sense and what's readily available in the media. Only offer Jimmy has received from Glen was 4yrs/$110M. Far as any of us know.

Even if Taylor doesn't want to pay Butler's next contract for whatever reason as you are thinking, absolutely no reason for Glen to reveal that

Just do the Clippers-Blake move, Butler on long-term contract has a lot of value

Now this is where it gets interesting. Nothing can be done with Jimmy's contract until the offseason. Sign and trades are (for all intents and purposes) gone. A player can't get their true max in a S&T anymore so the money and years are essentially the same as if they just walked. Jimmy would have to exercise his player option ($20Mish) just to retain his bird rights, and be traded, for the 5-year max he wants from another team. Then comes the next problem, a possible repeat of this year. His new team would need to renegotiate under their respective salary cap to give Jimmy his new max, or wait until the end of the season. Jimmy doesn't want this. He wants that max contract signed and guaranteed ASAP. Any reasonable person would.

[shrink]

Sure there is Shrink, you pay the guy and go into the luxury tax.

Which we would have, when it was legal at the end of this season.

The luxury tax is not preventing Jimmy from being paid now. It’s the CBA Rule that requires you be under the SALARY CAP to renegotiate a contract mid-season.

Ah, I see. could we not have done this this summer or even September?

To give Jimmy a $30 mil mid season renegotiation, we’d have to be $30 mil under the salary cap.

We are $25 mil over the cap (including Jimmy’s $20 mil), so we’d have had to find a way to remove another $35 mil in straight cap space. The only real way to have done this would have been to never use our cap space the year before on Teague, Taj and Crawford. If Jimmy said he wanted to do this last July, he was still a year too late.

[TruthSerum]

Which we would have, when it was legal at the end of this season.

The luxury tax is not preventing Jimmy from being paid now. It’s the CBA Rule that requires you be under the SALARY CAP to renegotiate a contract mid-season.

Ah, I see. could we not have done this this summer or even September?

To give Jimmy a $30 mil mid season renegotiation, we’d have to be $30 mil under the salary cap.

Well, $10M under the cap as I understand it. He was already $20M there.
But I wholeheartedly agree with you that it wasn't possible in September.
It would've had to be done at the start of summer. Jimmy wasn't being reasonable in his request.