Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition

[shrink]

I asked DEN fans about my concerns about Bones Hyland’s defense

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=103852969#p103852969

[Note30]

You are more or less a troll. You just like to be negative and argue. Gobert when he's been playing recently has been playing very well. He's top 30 average stats for fantasy basketball over the last month I think. What he does helps win games. What Kessler does helps win games. Either could easily be a part of a championship team. Time will tell. I would not be surprised at all if either or both of them get a championship or two.

I'm not negative about decisions that make sense. I'm pretty vocal about the parts of this team I like : Ant, McDaniels, SloMo.

I'm also extremely vocal about the parts I despise: the trade for Gobert, DLo, Nowell, Kahnelley.

Gobert isn't ever going to be a top 3 reason we win a finals. He's on the team but we essentially paid $40 mill for a guy who can't even play switches or decently on offense. Fucik stats. Stats say he's an amazing player.
What we traded for him, proves otherwise given the Jazz have nearly the same record. If he's such an amazing overall player then he'd be carrying the load every night. Just like if we had a real amazing player (insert 1 of 10 players here). You've been proven wrong over and over but you for some reason never back down.

Obviously either could be part of a championship team. I just don't think it's one where they are even the fourth best player in that lineup.

To me Rudy is a top 20 player in the league. That means he can easily be one of the best players on a championship team.

According to you he was top 10 this past summer. So what changed?

If and when we make the playoffs and Rudy gets his ass glued to bench in the fourth because he can't switch onto anyone.

[wolves_89]

I asked DEN fans about my concerns about Bones Hyland’s defense

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=103852969#p103852969

Based on the couple of responses I saw it sounds like the eye test from Denver fans matches the advanced metrics in that he is a really terrible defender. I've been hoping the Wolves could get off of the Nowell minutes, so I'm not terribly interested in replacing him with a guy who is pretty similar.

[lewdog]

To me Rudy is a top 20 player in the league. That means he can easily be one of the best players on a championship team.

I'm watching the Memphis-Cleveland game right now. There's literally 7 players in this game that I'd rather have than Gobert.

[Note30]

Honestly, depending on return I would send out Dlo, Rudy, and Kat asap for picks, prospects and cap to build around Ant, McDaniels and maybe Naz.

Unfortunately that's a terrible idea. I'd be behind it, except that we tossed all our picks meaning that unless we got good players out for DLo Rudy and Kat we'd be **** in the drafts we gave picks up in.

Mostly cause we'd be near the bottom. We'd be worse off than the pre-Adelman days.

[TimberKat]

To me Rudy is a top 20 player in the league. That means he can easily be one of the best players on a championship team.

I'm watching the Memphis-Cleveland game right now. There's literally 7 players in this game that I'd rather have than Gobert.

I'm watching the same game and Gobert is just as good if not better than Allen. Rubio is playing great. If we have someone like Rubio to throw lob pass to Gobert, we could had won 4 more games. Unless you like to have Osman to play small ball instead of Gobert

[Neeva]

Can’t wait for the Rudy trade haters to be choking on big black crow.

[jpatrick]

Can’t wait for the Rudy trade haters to be choking on big black crow.

I don’t think anyone thinks Rudy is a bad players. He is a top 30 or so player in the NBA. The problem is that he is limited offensively, has been played off the floor in the playoffs before because of a lack of defensive versatility, is owed a ton of money, and is in his 30s.

For that, we have as much as anyone has ever given up in a trade. It was by every measure a bad trade.

[Klomp]

Can’t wait for the Rudy trade haters to be choking on big black crow.

I don’t think anyone thinks Rudy is a bad players. He is a top 30 or so player in the NBA. The problem is that he is limited offensively, has been played off the floor in the playoffs before because of a lack of defensive versatility, is owed a ton of money, and is in his 30s.

For that, we have as much as anyone has ever given up in a trade. It was by every measure a bad trade.

I guarantee you we would not be 28-26 right now if the only thing we did differently was not do the trade. We would probably be below .500 right now, which this season is the difference between the No. 6 seed and missing the play-in tournament altogether.

[shrink]

Can’t wait for the Rudy trade haters to be choking on big black crow.

I don’t think anyone thinks Rudy is a bad players. He is a top 30 or so player in the NBA. The problem is that he is limited offensively, has been played off the floor in the playoffs before because of a lack of defensive versatility, is owed a ton of money, and is in his 30s.

For that, we have as much as anyone has ever given up in a trade. It was by every measure a bad trade.

I guarantee you we would not be 28-26 right now if the only thing we did differently was not do the trade. We would probably be below .500 right now, which this season is the difference between the No. 6 seed and missing the play-in tournament altogether.

We would easily be one of the worst team, in a season without both Towns and Rudy.

I have no issues with Rudy’s “versatility” defensively if we trade for a point-of-attack defender next to Ant. He guards the opponent’s best guard, McDaniels guards the best forward, and Rudy freakin’ Gobert defends the rim? That’s the best defensive team in the league.

[shrink]

I love the Trade Board, but sometimes a poster or two drive me crazy.

How about MINN homeboy hero, Suggs, along with ORL 23 1st(top 2 prt), CHI 23 1st(top 4), ORL 25 un?

WCJ/Anthony/#4/#8/2024 1st Swap/'25 1st (better of Orlando or Denver)/'26 1st/'27 Swap/'28 1st for Edwards

no way...way too much for any human with some questions

“I know! Let’s take ORL’s best two pieces off the table, and we can probably get another team’s most valuable star!”

[Norseman79]

Honestly, depending on return I would send out Dlo, Rudy, and Kat asap for picks, prospects and cap to build around Ant, McDaniels and maybe Naz.

Unfortunately that's a terrible idea. I'd be behind it, except that we tossed all our picks meaning that unless we got good players out for DLo Rudy and Kat we'd be **** in the drafts we gave picks up in.

Mostly cause we'd be near the bottom. We'd be worse off than the pre-Adelman days.

Honestly, I think kat is the only chance to recoup those picks. Rudy probably gets you 1, maybe 2 back, Dlo maybe 1.

Here is something I would consider...

Kat, Nowell to Atlanta for Collins, Griffin, and 3 1rsts

Rudy and Forbes to Knicks for Fournier, Toppin, Robinson and a 1rst

Dlo and Prince to Clippers for Kennard, Jackson and Boston and a future heavily protected 1.

Anderson, Jackson, McLaughlin
Edwards, Kennard, Fournier, Moore
McDaniels, Boston, Minott
Collins, Toppin, Knight
Reid, Robinson, Garza

And 4-5 1rsts back.

[shrink]

The question I always ask the people that want to trade KAT are ..how are you going to replace his talent? Say you trade KAT for Harden - how long before Harden just forces his way out? Set aside Towns’ “greatest bigman shooter in NBA history” stuff, and you still have a guy that wants to be in Minnesota, and has been extremely loyal through some pretty dark times. MIN isn’t drawing players of this caliber in free agency.

Second, I ask the KAT traders, “You realize the team is trying to win now, right?” They unloaded all their future picks in the Rudy deal, and they have more talent on the team now than they have since KG, Cassell, and Spree. They are the sixth seed right now, and they get to add Towns soon. Will it fit together? We don’t know yet, but with Ant and Jaden McDaniels growing by leaps and bounds, we don’t know their ceiling. Moreover, part of the reason they traded their future for Rudy was to develop Ant with meaningful games after the All Star break and the post season with a team around him that can win games when he’s young - something previous regimes failed to do with Kevin Love and Towns. Maybe you could make a fair offer with enough picks, but hasn‘t the Gobert trade showed that’s not their direction?

Ant isn’t being traded. KAT isn’t being traded. And Rudy isn’t being traded. Tim Connelly went all in here - he bet the farm and his reputation is on the line. He’s not veering until the experiment is decided, one way or another.

[Norseman79]

The question I always ask the people that want to trade KAT are ..how are you going to replace his talent? Say you trade KAT for Harden - how long before Harden just forces his way out? Set aside Towns’ “greatest bigman shooter in NBA history” stuff, and you still have a guy that wants to be in Minnesota, and has been extremely loyal through some pretty dark times. MIN isn’t drawing players of this caliber in free agency.

Second, I ask the KAT traders, “You realize the team is trying to win now, right?” They unloaded all their future picks in the Rudy deal, and they have more talent on the team now than they have since KG, Cassell, and Spree. They are the sixth seed right now, and they get to add Towns soon. Will it fit together? We don’t know yet, but with Ant and Jaden McDaniels growing by leaps and bounds, we don’t know their ceiling. Moreover, part of the reason they traded their future for Rudy was to develop Ant with meaningful games after the All Star break and the post season with a team around him that can win games when he’s young - something previous regimes failed to do with Kevin Love and Towns. Maybe you could make a fair offer with enough picks, but hasn‘t the Gobert trade showed that’s not their direction?

Ant isn’t being traded. KAT isn’t being traded. And Rudy isn’t being traded. Tim Connelly went all in here - he bet the farm and his reputation is on the line. He’s not veering until the experiment is decided, one way or another.

I agree with most of this post. Yet I am also one of the biggest proponents for doing it. My reason isn't Towns ability it's his drama. It isn't Goberts ability it's his age and contract. The reality is they may never gel and look as good as we do when they don't play. Now imagine having that money to throw at guys who do fit and have the right attitude. My main goal in trading them is finding mentality and playing style fit for Ant as well as cap room. Will they be traded? Likely not. Is it fun to speculate on? For some of us. I also see Kat wanting out soon

[Danimals]

Why do people want to spend $100 for the small chance to win $100?

[younggunsmn]

I don’t think anyone thinks Rudy is a bad players. He is a top 30 or so player in the NBA. The problem is that he is limited offensively, has been played off the floor in the playoffs before because of a lack of defensive versatility, is owed a ton of money, and is in his 30s.

For that, we have as much as anyone has ever given up in a trade. It was by every measure a bad trade.

I guarantee you we would not be 28-26 right now if the only thing we did differently was not do the trade. We would probably be below .500 right now, which this season is the difference between the No. 6 seed and missing the play-in tournament altogether.

We would easily be one of the worst team, in a season without both Towns and Rudy.

I have no issues with Rudy’s “versatility” defensively if we trade for a point-of-attack defender next to Ant. He guards the opponent’s best guard, McDaniels guards the best forward, and Rudy freakin’ Gobert defends the rim? That’s the best defensive team in the league.

We are 21-23 when Gobert plays this season and 7-3 when he does not. We just beat the defending champs without him or KAT.
We suffocated them defensively in the 3rd/4th quarter and OT, a top 5 offense that runs incredibly complex actions.

This is an incredibly terrible take.
And that is before even factoring in how much better this team would be if it included Patrick Beverly, Jared Vanderbilt, Malik Beasley, and Walker Kessler.
This is indeed one of the worst trades of all time. There is no changing that.
We gave up once in a generation superstar trade capital for a big man who cannot shoot, dribble, or pass, blocks fewer than 2 shots per game, and makes 40 million dollars.
At this point its just hoping the team Gels with Rudy and somehow makes the team better enough defensively when he is on the court to overcome his very very obvious shortcomings.

At this point I think I am more bummed by how good Walker Kessler already is and could become in the future than owing the 4 picks plus a swap. If we had just stuck with the status quo we could have had everything we wanted from Rudy on a dirt cheap #22 pick rookie scale deal plus likely a rookie contract extension for potentially the next 8-9 years.

Please enlighten me what Rudy does that Walker Kessler cannot already do.
Kessler already walls up like a veteran and uses his length to block shots without swatting.

Because I've watched every game Rudy has played for the Wolves and I'm less than impressed with his defensive instincts, I see a guy who gets by on incredible length more than anything and the BBIQ and agility are average at best.

[theGreatRC]

I'm perfectly fine with not making any trades and this season takes us with Jmac & KAT coming back in the near future.

I'm curious to see where Pat Bev ends up & if he ends up getting bought out (he's said that he wants to come back to Minny if he's traded to a rebuilding or non competitive team)

I'd waive Forbes if we can sign Pat Bev.

Bones or Mann aren't worth it for what we would probably have to give up

[KGdaBom]

I'm not negative about decisions that make sense. I'm pretty vocal about the parts of this team I like : Ant, McDaniels, SloMo.

I'm also extremely vocal about the parts I despise: the trade for Gobert, DLo, Nowell, Kahnelley.

Gobert isn't ever going to be a top 3 reason we win a finals. He's on the team but we essentially paid $40 mill for a guy who can't even play switches or decently on offense. Fucik stats. Stats say he's an amazing player.
What we traded for him, proves otherwise given the Jazz have nearly the same record. If he's such an amazing overall player then he'd be carrying the load every night. Just like if we had a real amazing player (insert 1 of 10 players here). You've been proven wrong over and over but you for some reason never back down.

Obviously either could be part of a championship team. I just don't think it's one where they are even the fourth best player in that lineup.

To me Rudy is a top 20 player in the league. That means he can easily be one of the best players on a championship team.

According to you he was top 10 this past summer. So what changed?

If and when we make the playoffs and Rudy gets his ass glued to bench in the fourth because he can't switch onto anyone.

It's called an adjustment to more recent data.

[KGdaBom]

To me Rudy is a top 20 player in the league. That means he can easily be one of the best players on a championship team.

I'm watching the Memphis-Cleveland game right now. There's literally 7 players in this game that I'd rather have than Gobert.

You totally have your right to that opinion. I just happen to disagree with that opinion. There are definitely some good players on those teams.

[Note30]

To me Rudy is a top 20 player in the league. That means he can easily be one of the best players on a championship team.

According to you he was top 10 this past summer. So what changed?

If and when we make the playoffs and Rudy gets his ass glued to bench in the fourth because he can't switch onto anyone.

It's called an adjustment to more recent data.

It's not an adjustment of data, it's an adjustment to realizing he's just not that good. He was the same last year he just had a different team a better lead player and a better coach for him.

Out of the past 4 Finals teams going back to 2021, none of them would have Rudy as their 3rd best player in those games. That's not even debatable.

And that's saying a lot because Wiggins was the 3rd best player on the Warriors in last year's finals.