2020 NBA Draft Prospects: Thread II

[TheProdigy]

I'm not getting one iota of goofy about it. I have zero negativity about tall people.

You're trying to say that posters don't like tall players because of their height.

Seems like some people really do believe that there's something negative about a player being tall.

That's not true. No one is discriminating against people because of their height. It's all about skill set.

You have your right to be wrong.

Since this is such a widespread belief according to you, then you shouldn't have any trouble quoting other posters saying things like "we shouldn't target x player because he's too tall". I'll wait.

[KGdaBom]

You're trying to say that posters don't like tall players because of their height.



That's not true. No one is discriminating against people because of their height. It's all about skill set.

You have your right to be wrong.

Since this is such a widespread belief according to you, then you shouldn't have any trouble quoting other posters saying things like "we shouldn't target x player because he's too tall". I'll wait.

Minimus Nothing can hurt Wiseman stock more than HOU and MIA smallball.
Neeva Houston won with no starter over 6’7 and Miami won with no starter over 6’9.

If Wiseman can’t shoot threes he will lose value, might not even be worth a Lotto pick in a few years the way the league is going.
Now he qualifies it about the skill of shooting 3s, but why not say if Ball, Avdija or Edwards can't shoot threes they won't be worth a lotto pick. They are all proven to be poor at threes like Avdija or totally suck at threes Ball and Edwards, but they're not tall so no bias or comment against them.

[TheProdigy]

You have your right to be wrong.

Since this is such a widespread belief according to you, then you shouldn't have any trouble quoting other posters saying things like "we shouldn't target x player because he's too tall". I'll wait.

Minimus Nothing can hurt Wiseman stock more than HOU and MIA smallball.
Neeva Houston won with no starter over 6’7 and Miami won with no starter over 6’9.

If Wiseman can’t shoot threes he will lose value, might not even be worth a Lotto pick in a few years the way the league is going.
Now he qualifies it about the skill of shooting 3s, but why not say if Ball, Avdija or Edwards can't shoot threes they won't be worth a lotto pick. They are all proven to be poor at threes like Avdija or totally suck at threes Ball and Edwards, but they're not tall so no bias or comment against them.

Neither one of those quotes says we shouldn't target someone because they're too tall.

I think the thing you're missing is that this is a simple mathematics issue. There are far more people in the world who are 6'8 or shorter than there 6'8 and taller. By that fact alone, the probability of finding a shorter person with shooting ability and agility is much higher than finding a tall person with those qualities. If you can find a tall person that can do both, they will be in high demand. They're just extremely rare.

[KGdaBom]

Since this is such a widespread belief according to you, then you shouldn't have any trouble quoting other posters saying things like "we shouldn't target x player because he's too tall". I'll wait.

Minimus Nothing can hurt Wiseman stock more than HOU and MIA smallball.
Neeva Houston won with no starter over 6’7 and Miami won with no starter over 6’9.

If Wiseman can’t shoot threes he will lose value, might not even be worth a Lotto pick in a few years the way the league is going.
Now he qualifies it about the skill of shooting 3s, but why not say if Ball, Avdija or Edwards can't shoot threes they won't be worth a lotto pick. They are all proven to be poor at threes like Avdija or totally suck at threes Ball and Edwards, but they're not tall so no bias or comment against them.

Neither one of those quotes says we shouldn't target someone because they're too tall.

I think the thing you're missing is that this is a simple mathematics issue. There are far more people in the world who are 6'8 or shorter than there 6'8 and taller. By that fact alone, the probability of finding a shorter person with shooting ability and agility is much higher than finding a tall person with those qualities. If you can find a tall person that can do both, they will be in high demand. They're just extremely rare.

I'm not missing that at all. I know that and almost posted about it, but since it was so obvious I didn't bother. You are missing a clear bias against tall people. Height gives players a huge advantage and people are ignoring that aspect.

[Worm Guts]

The big issue is that post ups are becoming viewed as detrimental because they clog the lane and are inefficient, and that takes away one of the biggest advantages of being tall.

[KGdaBom]

The big issue is that post ups are becoming viewed as detrimental because they clog the lane and are inefficient, and that takes away one of the biggest advantages of being tall.

If 3s are being made at 33.3% 2s wherever they're taken from need to be made at 50% to be as efficient. Post ups that are made at 60% efficiency are much better, but 3s made at 40% are better yet and so on and so forth. IMO it's best to have a balance between the two for the best efficiency. if your opponent knows you never shoot from one or the other they won't have to defend against it.

[TheProdigy]

Minimus Nothing can hurt Wiseman stock more than HOU and MIA smallball.
Neeva Houston won with no starter over 6’7 and Miami won with no starter over 6’9.

If Wiseman can’t shoot threes he will lose value, might not even be worth a Lotto pick in a few years the way the league is going.
Now he qualifies it about the skill of shooting 3s, but why not say if Ball, Avdija or Edwards can't shoot threes they won't be worth a lotto pick. They are all proven to be poor at threes like Avdija or totally suck at threes Ball and Edwards, but they're not tall so no bias or comment against them.

Neither one of those quotes says we shouldn't target someone because they're too tall.

I think the thing you're missing is that this is a simple mathematics issue. There are far more people in the world who are 6'8 or shorter than there 6'8 and taller. By that fact alone, the probability of finding a shorter person with shooting ability and agility is much higher than finding a tall person with those qualities. If you can find a tall person that can do both, they will be in high demand. They're just extremely rare.

I'm not missing that at all. I know that and almost posted about it, but since it was so obvious I didn't bother. You are missing a clear bias against tall people. Height gives players a huge advantage and people are ignoring that aspect.

Yes height does inherently provide advantages in certain areas, but height does not win you games like it used to because the game has changed so much. If you can't see that, then I don't know what to tell you besides you're stuck in the 90s. In today's NBA, you need to be able to space the floor and defend the perimeter. If you're a tall person who can't do those things, then you're SOL. Don't trust me though, just watch the playoffs and see for yourself.

[KGdaBom]

Neither one of those quotes says we shouldn't target someone because they're too tall.

I think the thing you're missing is that this is a simple mathematics issue. There are far more people in the world who are 6'8 or shorter than there 6'8 and taller. By that fact alone, the probability of finding a shorter person with shooting ability and agility is much higher than finding a tall person with those qualities. If you can find a tall person that can do both, they will be in high demand. They're just extremely rare.

I'm not missing that at all. I know that and almost posted about it, but since it was so obvious I didn't bother. You are missing a clear bias against tall people. Height gives players a huge advantage and people are ignoring that aspect.

Yes height does inherently provide advantages in certain areas, but height does not win you games like it used to because the game has changed so much. If you can't see that, then I don't know what to tell you besides you're stuck in the 90s. In today's NBA, you need to be able to space the floor and defend the perimeter. If you're a tall person who can't do those things, then you're SOL. Don't trust me though, just watch the playoffs and see for yourself.

You keep implying I don't see something. I see everything. I still say the pendulum has swung too far in anti tall bias. I never implied you were the one biased against tall people, but others are unreasonably biased against them.
By the way using the simple math formula there are far more people 6'0" and shorter than 6'1" and taller. Why isn't the NBA populated primarily by people 6'0" and shorter? My answer to that is height gives a huge advantage. Since shooting is so important why are ball and Edwards under consideration to be drafted at all when their horrific 3 point shooting is taken into account?

[minimus]

In case anyone still thinks that size advantage automatically translates into better defense:

HOU lead all defense in the bubble with 101.8 DRtg

[TheProdigy]

In case anyone still thinks that size advantage automatically translates into better defense:

HOU lead all defense in the bubble with 101.8 DRtg

Could this partially be because their first round opponent was one of the worst offensive teams among teams in the playoffs?

[minimus]

In case anyone still thinks that size advantage automatically translates into better defense:

HOU lead all defense in the bubble with 101.8 DRtg

Could this partially be because their first round opponent was one of the worst offensive teams among teams in the playoffs?

Yeah, but still Steven Adams might be the strongest and biggest player in NBA and this OKC team is tough matchup for HOU. Houston also had no time to recover because games were postponed.

[gandlogo]

It's difficult to get full game video on players instead of just watching highlights. I couldn't find any Euro League games on Avdija, but I did find the 2019 FIBA U20 European Championship. The Wiki page links to the FIBA page where you can get complete boxscores and watch full game replays. I killed nearly six hours watching Avdija in the quarter, semi, and final games. It was some really good basketball and fun to watch how hard those national teams compete. The style is pretty hard-nose, basically like watching Big Ten basketball. But the stakes were much higher, and you could tell the teams were highly vested. These three games from a year ago were stiffer competition than the three games Wiseman played in college. Then he went on to play another season in the Euro League.

Overall, Avdija was really fun to watch and impacts the game in nearly all areas - even if his shooting is off. He was the second youngest player in the tournament, but won the MVP award averaging 18.4 points, 8.3 rebounds, 5.3 assists, 2.4 blocks and 2.1 steals per game. He was more athletic than I was anticipating. Very good straight-line speed. Decent leaper off one or two feet. Has a little glide/hang on his takes (needs to finish more consistently). Light on his feet for the second jump. Contests/blocks shots without fouling. The team's defensive scheme was to switch nearly everything, so you literally can watch him guard 1-5. France has a really small point guard and a thick post, and Deni does well against either. His BBIQ is off the charts. He understands spacing and pacing. His turnovers were usually poor execution and not poor recognition. He already has very good handles and shooting stroke - arguably was the team's primary ball handler. Probably most importantly, he's an alpha dog that competes hard and did not shrink in big moments of really big games. You can see he hates failure.

Quarterfinals against Lithuania

16 points, 10 boards, 5 assists, 3 steals, 4 blocks, 3/8 FT, 1/5 3PT

Watch on YouTube

Semifinal against France

26 points, 11 boards, 1 assist, 5 steals, 3 blocks, 12/14 FT, 2/5 3PT

Watch on YouTube

Finals against Spain

23 points, 5 boards, 7 assists, 1 steal, 3 blocks, 2/3 FT, 3/7 3PT.

Watch on YouTube

This is a decent look at Deni that goes back to his early years and shows his development as a pro. You can see his body change and you get a better idea that he has actually been a pro - not a college player - for years. Likely better for development than AAU over the same period. I'm not buying the Luka comp as much as this guy is pushing, but I do agree he will be a very good play maker in the NBA. His player profile page for the Euro League actually lists him as a guard. Having watched the three full game videos I would list him a positionless basketball player. He is Ben Simmons with a better jump shot.

Watch on YouTube

[Neeva]

I am starting to think the warriors take Deni and Wiseman will tumble on draft night maybe to the bulls where he will become a taller slightly better carter jr.

[minimus]

...

I hope we will have official measurements for this year draft. Deni looks bigger and stronger compared to year ago. I saw numbers like 6'9" and 240lbs. If he continues to add muscles without losing quickness I can see him being our starting PF. It also will help him to improve defense.

P.S. It is important to note that his dad is Serbian. Србија is well known basketball country.

[KGdaBom]

...

I hope we will have official measurements for this year draft. Deni looks bigger and stronger compared to year ago. I saw numbers like 6'9" and 240lbs. If he continues to add muscles without losing quickness I can see him being our starting PF. It also will help him to improve defense.

P.S. It is important to note that his dad is Serbian. Србија is well known basketball country.

Minimus the more I look at Avdija the more I like him, but he shoots abysmally. You act like Wiseman is a bad choice because he doesn't have a 3. Neither does Avdija. Wiseman makes his FTs Avdija doesn't. If only Avdija could shoot halfway straight he might be on top of my board, but he is a horrible shooter from everywhere.

Your own words if a player is a non shooter opposing defense can ignore him and shut down our offense. Why does this apply to Wiseman who shoots well from some places, but not Avdija who shoots well from nowhere?

[theGreatRC]

I want to believe SO bad that Edwards just took bad shots and his coach basically asked him to be their total offense.

My man's only scored 19ppg..

For example; Trae Young was his team's whole offense and he scored 27ppg on 42% and 36% from 3.

I wish this draft had one of those 99% sure things at the top like Anthony Davis, Towns, Wall, Kyrie, etc.

[KGdaBom]

I want to believe SO bad that Edwards just took bad shots and his coach basically asked him to be their total offense.

My man's only scored 19ppg..

For example; Trae Young was his team's whole offense and he scored 27ppg on 42% and 36% from 3.

I wish this draft had one of those 99% sure things at the top like Anthony Davis, Towns, Wall, Kyrie, etc.

Wouldn't it be nice.

[Rookie-Mistake]

Yep. So do I. I have matured and realised that someone like a Wiseman is the pick. I'm not falling into this Big Men don't win rings debate that everyone is talking about.

Must draft on skill.

Then it's up to the coach and GM to form a culture that can allow the players to succeed.

I want to believe SO bad that Edwards just took bad shots and his coach basically asked him to be their total offense.

My man's only scored 19ppg..

For example; Trae Young was his team's whole offense and he scored 27ppg on 42% and 36% from 3.

I wish this draft had one of those 99% sure things at the top like Anthony Davis, Towns, Wall, Kyrie, etc.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using RealGM mobile app

[KGdaBom]

Here's a YouTube comparing Wiseman very favorably to Antetokounmpo when he entered the league. He could develop into a taller version of the man.

Watch on YouTube

;t=213s

[Midw35t]

Here's a YouTube comparing Wiseman very favorably to Antetokounmpo when he entered the league. He could develop into a taller version of the man.

Watch on YouTube

;t=213s

With a jumpshot and able to hit his FTs.

**** the NCAA and their bogus archaic rules.

I have no doubt that Wiseman would be the runaway #1 if he played the "whole" year.