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Trade Talk (Part Four)

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old school 34
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Four) 

Post#1441 » by old school 34 » Sat Sep 19, 2020 1:19 am

KGdaBom wrote:
shrink wrote:
KGdaBom wrote:I'd rather do #1 for #5 and Nance. Hunter had a disappointing rookie year. Nance would meet our needs much better.

I haven’t seen anyone talking about this. Nance seems like a CLE guy, especially since his dad is fondly remembered for his seven season as a Cav. We might have to overpay. I don’t have strong feelings on Nance jr, one way or another, so I can’t comment on the values.

One thing that this post reminded me of is an economic/psychological phenomena that might make it harder to get full value out of the #1 pick. The easiest way to describe it is “sour grapes.” Fans/front offices may have had specific players at the top of draft until the lottery happened, and they didn’t win the number one pick. As they started looking at more prospects around their pick (here, #5), they start to fall in love with the players there as they envision the kid wearing that Cavs jersey reaching their highest ceiling. I often see this manifest on the Trade Board, where a poster with the #5 pick (or whatever), is more likely to see a tier that stretches higher than it should, and ends just after his pick. For example, a Cavs fan may say, “I think the top 5 picks all have the same value, so I wouldn’t give anything to trade up.” Obviously this is false - even if all the players were in the first tier, getting to choose your favorite of the five has value, but people tend to rationalize that value away.

Right now (and this could certainly change once we see pre-draft workouts), I feel there is a definite top three tier. I feel Ball, Wiseman and Edwards have a significantly better chance of becoming a star than anyone else in the draft. This doesn’t mean becoming a star is likely for any of them, but stars are what have real value to NBA franchises - not role players.

Look at Nance's #s. https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/nancela02.html
He'd be the almost perfect PF for us. Nance does everything well. We use #5 to get the SF we need possibly Vassell and we are a solid team.
Nance is solid, but I'd be hoping for someone that's still ascending or we hope will....Nance to me seems like he is what it is...but not enough of needle mover by himself to slide down to 5? Plus, I do think he really likes playing for Cavs (dad's old team...think they unretired the jersey even for him?).

Last thing....isn't he kind of in that middle class pay range...that it seems Rosas at least for the moment wants to keep off the radar (speculative on part but the vibe I get)...

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Re: Trade Talk (Part Four) 

Post#1442 » by old school 34 » Sat Sep 19, 2020 1:34 am

jayu70 wrote:
KGdaBom wrote:
minimus wrote:Image

My favorite scenario by far.

We get the 6th pick. Is that them getting Edwards? So we're giving the #1 pick?

Rumor is Minny offered....Hawks said No!
I don't doubt MN & Atl have talked....both sides have to do there due diligence on the possibilities. But many fans throw this version out there & things change & sometimes there's some GM speak....but both sides going back to last year's draft kind of tell the same story.

Hunter was up there for sure...but Atl seemingly valued him more than most...so if that then...why would they move him now?

And from MN's side...when Rosas talks about jumping up to 6 last year...he repeatedly explained that he felt there was a clear 5 guys & because he knew Atl was taking Hunter....he was getting one of those top 5 (hoping at that time Garland)...meaning he had Hunter per their evaluation a tier below.

Things change in a year &/or maybe it's still enough from MN's side....but just too much needs to change from the original draft evals on both sides that I see this version being the final outcome if a deal is to come to fruition?

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Re: Trade Talk (Part Four) 

Post#1443 » by UnFadeable21 » Sat Sep 19, 2020 1:40 am

shrink wrote:
UnFadeable21 wrote:Doogie said the Wolves are most interested in Ball or Edwards only with the number 1 pick

As long as other teams believe Rosas when he says he could trade the pick, the leverage remains.

If your team doesn’t trade for the #1 pick, they not get Wiseman.

Now it’s up to the prospects to blow away some front office in a pre-draft workout.


I would trade for Booker, Simmons, or Beal in that order.

Having seen Rosas and Ryan, I don’t believe they will play a center next to KAT.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Four) 

Post#1444 » by KGdaBom » Sat Sep 19, 2020 1:45 am

old school 34 wrote:
KGdaBom wrote:
shrink wrote:I haven’t seen anyone talking about this. Nance seems like a CLE guy, especially since his dad is fondly remembered for his seven season as a Cav. We might have to overpay. I don’t have strong feelings on Nance jr, one way or another, so I can’t comment on the values.

One thing that this post reminded me of is an economic/psychological phenomena that might make it harder to get full value out of the #1 pick. The easiest way to describe it is “sour grapes.” Fans/front offices may have had specific players at the top of draft until the lottery happened, and they didn’t win the number one pick. As they started looking at more prospects around their pick (here, #5), they start to fall in love with the players there as they envision the kid wearing that Cavs jersey reaching their highest ceiling. I often see this manifest on the Trade Board, where a poster with the #5 pick (or whatever), is more likely to see a tier that stretches higher than it should, and ends just after his pick. For example, a Cavs fan may say, “I think the top 5 picks all have the same value, so I wouldn’t give anything to trade up.” Obviously this is false - even if all the players were in the first tier, getting to choose your favorite of the five has value, but people tend to rationalize that value away.

Right now (and this could certainly change once we see pre-draft workouts), I feel there is a definite top three tier. I feel Ball, Wiseman and Edwards have a significantly better chance of becoming a star than anyone else in the draft. This doesn’t mean becoming a star is likely for any of them, but stars are what have real value to NBA franchises - not role players.

Look at Nance's #s. https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/nancela02.html
He'd be the almost perfect PF for us. Nance does everything well. We use #5 to get the SF we need possibly Vassell and we are a solid team.
Nance is solid, but I'd be hoping for someone that's still ascending or we hope will....Nance to me seems like he is what it is...but not enough of needle mover by himself to slide down to 5? Plus, I do think he really likes playing for Cavs (dad's old team...think they unretired the jersey even for him?).

Last thing....isn't he kind of in that middle class pay range...that it seems Rosas at least for the moment wants to keep off the radar (speculative on part but the vibe I get)...

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Statistically Nance is much better than solid. Super efficient and does everything well.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Four) 

Post#1445 » by KGdaBom » Sat Sep 19, 2020 1:46 am

UnFadeable21 wrote:
shrink wrote:
UnFadeable21 wrote:Doogie said the Wolves are most interested in Ball or Edwards only with the number 1 pick

As long as other teams believe Rosas when he says he could trade the pick, the leverage remains.

If your team doesn’t trade for the #1 pick, they not get Wiseman.

Now it’s up to the prospects to blow away some front office in a pre-draft workout.


I would trade for Booker, Simmons, or Beal in that order.

Having seen Rosas and Ryan, I don’t believe they will play a center next to KAT.

It's not the position. It's the player. Is Wiseman talented enough to play with KAT. That is the question.
Is Okongwu talented enough to play with KAT.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Four) 

Post#1446 » by zimpy27 » Sat Sep 19, 2020 4:30 pm

Simmons does seem like an ideal pairing for Dlo and KAT, don't know how you'd swing it though.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Four) 

Post#1447 » by minimus » Sat Sep 19, 2020 5:07 pm

zimpy27 wrote:Simmons does seem like an ideal pairing for Dlo and KAT, don't know how you'd swing it though.


It is simple, but not easy:

* - we need to re-sign our FAs Beasley, Juancho, JMac, Martin to team friendly deals
* - we need to be patient and continue to develop our young players: Nowell, Reid, Vanderbilt, Culver and Okogie
* - we need to have some luck during draft night
* - play competitive basketball

Wait before trade deadline, convince PHI by offering multiple assets
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Four) 

Post#1448 » by 51X3RF4N » Sat Sep 19, 2020 6:09 pm

What would y'all think about swapping Johnson for Tobias Harris?

Would picks need to be involved?

Harris seems like he could slide right into your starting lineup at the 3/4 spot and fit well with DLo and KAT. But his contract is crazy big so it would eat your cap space.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Four) 

Post#1449 » by shangrila » Sat Sep 19, 2020 6:23 pm

51X3RF4N wrote:What would y'all think about swapping Johnson for Tobias Harris?

Would picks need to be involved?

Harris seems like he could slide right into your starting lineup at the 3/4 spot and fit well with DLo and KAT. But his contract is crazy big so it would eat your cap space.

I'd need multiple unprotected 1sts. Then I'd need you to trade Embiid and Simmons for capspace to guarantee those picks are good. Even then I'd hesitate.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Four) 

Post#1450 » by Jedzz » Sat Sep 19, 2020 6:35 pm

Harris = 36/yr until 2024. That's rough.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Four) 

Post#1451 » by shrink » Sat Sep 19, 2020 7:17 pm

51X3RF4N wrote:What would y'all think about swapping Johnson for Tobias Harris?

Would picks need to be involved?

Harris seems like he could slide right into your starting lineup at the 3/4 spot and fit well with DLo and KAT. But his contract is crazy big so it would eat your cap space.

You don’t have good enough picks. He isn’t a horrible player (I heard him described as a “fourth starter on a contender in a podcast this morning,”) but his max deal makes him one of the ten worst contracts in the nba.

To get an expiring for him would take incentive you either don’t have, or wouldn’t want to give up.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Four) 

Post#1452 » by Mattya » Sat Sep 19, 2020 7:40 pm

How would a Johnson for Harris trade even work. We would need to add so much salary to make it work that we would probably end up losing assets.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Four) 

Post#1453 » by Mattya » Sat Sep 19, 2020 10:21 pm

Apparently Harris has a 15% trade kicker as well.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Four) 

Post#1454 » by zimpy27 » Sat Sep 19, 2020 11:54 pm

I think Ed Davis would be a good pickup. He's had a bad year at Utah but DLo had an excellent connection with him in Brooklyn. I think they had the best 2-man lineup numbers DLo has ever had with another player by quite a margin.

Could be able to get him very cheap and he might pair well with KAT.

Maybe something like JJ + picks for Ingles + Davis, or are these players too old?
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Four) 

Post#1455 » by KGdaBom » Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:43 am

zimpy27 wrote:I think Ed Davis would be a good pickup. He's had a bad year at Utah but DLo had an excellent connection with him in Brooklyn. I think they had the best 2-man lineup numbers DLo has ever had with another player by quite a margin.

Could be able to get him very cheap and he might pair well with KAT.

Maybe something like JJ + picks for Ingles + Davis, or are these players too old?

I don't think they're too old.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Four) 

Post#1456 » by Nick K » Sun Sep 20, 2020 1:12 am

zimpy27 wrote:Simmons does seem like an ideal pairing for Dlo and KAT, don't know how you'd swing it though.


The ideal pairing with KAT is Okongwu.

KAT. D'Lo and Edwards give us a "big 3" thing going.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Four) 

Post#1457 » by KGdaBom » Sun Sep 20, 2020 1:14 am

Nick K wrote:
zimpy27 wrote:Simmons does seem like an ideal pairing for Dlo and KAT, don't know how you'd swing it though.


The ideal pairing with KAT is Okongwu.

KAT. D'Lo and Edwards give us a "big 3" thing going.

Because of Okongwu's likely excellent D in and out you could be right. Wiseman has a lot more potential I think.

IMO Beasley is a better big three guy than Edwards.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Four) 

Post#1458 » by zimpy27 » Sun Sep 20, 2020 1:33 am

KGdaBom wrote:
Nick K wrote:
zimpy27 wrote:Simmons does seem like an ideal pairing for Dlo and KAT, don't know how you'd swing it though.


The ideal pairing with KAT is Okongwu.

KAT. D'Lo and Edwards give us a "big 3" thing going.

Because of Okongwu's likely excellent D in and out you could be right. Wiseman has a lot more potential I think.

IMO Beasley is a better big three guy than Edwards.


Yeah if Hawks were to give Hunter and pick 6 for pick 1 then DLo, Beasley, Hunter, Okongwu, KAT would be a nice team.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Four) 

Post#1459 » by KGdaBom » Sun Sep 20, 2020 4:22 am

zimpy27 wrote:
KGdaBom wrote:
Nick K wrote:
The ideal pairing with KAT is Okongwu.

KAT. D'Lo and Edwards give us a "big 3" thing going.

Because of Okongwu's likely excellent D in and out you could be right. Wiseman has a lot more potential I think.

IMO Beasley is a better big three guy than Edwards.


Yeah if Hawks were to give Hunter and pick 6 for pick 1 then DLo, Beasley, Hunter, Okongwu, KAT would be a nice team.

If Okongwu lasts until pick 6 that would be intriguing.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Four) 

Post#1460 » by shangrila » Sun Sep 20, 2020 11:16 am

zimpy27 wrote:
KGdaBom wrote:
Nick K wrote:
The ideal pairing with KAT is Okongwu.

KAT. D'Lo and Edwards give us a "big 3" thing going.

Because of Okongwu's likely excellent D in and out you could be right. Wiseman has a lot more potential I think.

IMO Beasley is a better big three guy than Edwards.


Yeah if Hawks were to give Hunter and pick 6 for pick 1 then DLo, Beasley, Hunter, Okongwu, KAT would be a nice team.

Could even go Vassell, Deni or even Okoro. Go small with Hunter at the 4.

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