Trade Talk (Part Six)

[Playmaker17]

I was referring to Edwards based on his draft value. I referred to LaMelo because he’s ranked 3 in the most recent rankings compared to Edwards at 20 or what not. That’s it. It’s not that deep pal.

My bad if I’m not reading your post properly. It seems to me you were saying the top 3-4 picks have more current value than AE. If that’s not the case, I apologize

To be fair, “ Now, maybe Edwards has shown more than expected but I think it’s fair to argue that the top 3-4 pick alone has as much or more value than Edwards.” does make it seem like you are talking about ants current value.

I thought so as well...but no worries

[Note30]

Really feeling like a player like Russell Westbrook could change the culture here.

DLO, Rubio for Westbrook straight up maybe add in Bolmaro and a second rounder if Washington wants to tank I feel like that's a decent offer.

[zimpy27]

Would you guys trade Rubio, Edwards and '24 FRP for Simmons?

Or if you get a top 3 pick this year - Rubio, Juancho, Culver, pick 1-3 for Simmons?

Or you keep the top 3 pick and try rebuild around them and Edwards?

[Guidus88]

Would you guys trade Rubio, Edwards and '24 FRP for Simmons?

Or if you get a top 3 pick this year - Rubio, Juancho, Culver, pick 1-3 for Simmons?

Or you keep the top 3 pick and try rebuild around them and Edwards?

I don't think edwards is available right now. Anyway I would turn down trade no. 1, but I would pull the trigger on trade no. 2.

[shrink]

Would you guys trade Rubio, Edwards and '24 FRP for Simmons?

Or if you get a top 3 pick this year - Rubio, Juancho, Culver, pick 1-3 for Simmons?

Or you keep the top 3 pick and try rebuild around them and Edwards?

Adding Simmons would be a great addition. The Wolves biggest holes are in defense, and at PF, and Simmons could fill both. Rosas likes lots of passing and ball-handling on the floor. MIN also wants to win now, and Simmons and Towns are good friends already. Finally, there is probably no better player in the NBA to maximize Simmons than KAT.

Still, adding Simmons is not without its downside. Simmons value is capped because he is tough to build around, and his lack of shooting doesn’t maximize Towns on the perimeter (though we’d likely play him a lot in the dunker position). Simmons also doesn’t maximize Russell, and both players do better with the ball in their hands. Finally, Simmons would be a third max deal. It would be difficult to build around these three players with so little financial flexibility. Rosas showed last year that he’d rather give up a pick to send out Wiggins max deal, rather than trade Covington for Russell and be financially pinned down.

I think the optimum Simmons trade for the Wolves sends out D’Angelo Russell, which solves two of the three problems I just listed. Russell is clearly a negative deal right now, but he is less negative in PHI where he could be a good fit. If MIN could get Simmons for DLo, Beasley, and the #2 or #3 pick, I think that would be a win. I expect they keep Edwards, and if they aren’t moving out Russell, then they’d keep the top 3 pick as well.

[Klomp]

Would you guys trade Rubio, Edwards and '24 FRP for Simmons?

Or if you get a top 3 pick this year - Rubio, Juancho, Culver, pick 1-3 for Simmons?

Or you keep the top 3 pick and try rebuild around them and Edwards?

Adding Simmons would be a great addition. The Wolves biggest holes are in defense, and at PF, and Simmons could fill both. Rosas likes lots of passing and ball-handling on the floor. MIN also wants to win now, and Simmons and Towns are good friends already. Finally, there is probably no better player in the NBA to maximize Simmons than KAT.

Still, adding Simmons is not without its downside. Simmons value is capped because he is tough to build around, and his lack of shooting doesn’t maximize Towns on the perimeter (though we’d likely play him a lot in the dunker position). Simmons also doesn’t maximize Russell, and both players do better with the ball in their hands. Finally, Simmons would be a third max deal. It would be difficult to build around these three players with so little financial flexibility. Rosas showed last year that he’d rather give up a pick to send out Wiggins max deal, rather than trade Covington for Russell and be financially pinned down.

I think the optimum Simmons trade for the Wolves sends out D’Angelo Russell, which solves two of the three problems I just listed. Russell is clearly a negative deal right now, but he is less negative in PHI where he could be a good fit. If MIN could get Simmons for DLo, Beasley, and the #2 or #3 pick, I think that would be a win. I expect they keep Edwards, and if they aren’t moving out Russell, then they’d keep the top 3 pick as well.

You talk about the difficulty of building enough shooting around Simmons, yet your trade proposal sends out the team's two best shooters (by percentage). BTW don't forget Russell and Simmons were high school teammates at Monteverde Academy. They have a history of playing together.

I don't think Rosas would be afraid of a third max guy, nor should he be. He's shown the ability to find gems on the cheap that are a big part of filling out a roster.

If Rosas decides a big move is needed, this is one that makes a lot of sense to me in a lot of ways. I think the difficulty would enter in the picture if Philadelphia would try to pry Jaden McDaniels from us.

[Wolveswin]

Would you guys trade Rubio, Edwards and '24 FRP for Simmons?

Or if you get a top 3 pick this year - Rubio, Juancho, Culver, pick 1-3 for Simmons?

Or you keep the top 3 pick and try rebuild around them and Edwards?

Adding Simmons would be a great addition. The Wolves biggest holes are in defense, and at PF, and Simmons could fill both. Rosas likes lots of passing and ball-handling on the floor. MIN also wants to win now, and Simmons and Towns are good friends already. Finally, there is probably no better player in the NBA to maximize Simmons than KAT.

Still, adding Simmons is not without its downside. Simmons value is capped because he is tough to build around, and his lack of shooting doesn’t maximize Towns on the perimeter (though we’d likely play him a lot in the dunker position). Simmons also doesn’t maximize Russell, and both players do better with the ball in their hands. Finally, Simmons would be a third max deal. It would be difficult to build around these three players with so little financial flexibility. Rosas showed last year that he’d rather give up a pick to send out Wiggins max deal, rather than trade Covington for Russell and be financially pinned down.

I think the optimum Simmons trade for the Wolves sends out D’Angelo Russell, which solves two of the three problems I just listed. Russell is clearly a negative deal right now, but he is less negative in PHI where he could be a good fit. If MIN could get Simmons for DLo, Beasley, and the #2 or #3 pick, I think that would be a win. I expect they keep Edwards, and if they aren’t moving out Russell, then they’d keep the top 3 pick as well.

You talk about the difficulty of building enough shooting around Simmons, yet your trade proposal sends out the team's two best shooters (by percentage). BTW don't forget Russell and Simmons were high school teammates at Monteverde Academy. They have a history of playing together.

I don't think Rosas would be afraid of a third max guy, nor should he be. He's shown the ability to find gems on the cheap that are a big part of filling out a roster.

If Rosas decides a big move is needed, this is one that makes a lot of sense to me in a lot of ways. I think the difficulty would enter in the picture if Philadelphia would try to pry Jaden McDaniels from us.

I agree with you.

Figuring out how two players who are friends and played together in the past would be child’s play for a NBA coach and franchise. Plus, Russell and Simmons do fit well together. Simmons ball in hand during transition. Russell ball in hand during half court sets.

Simmons at the 4/5 next to Towns would be deadly. Simmons in half court set would be a dunker/center more often. With Towns shooting 10+ threes a game.

I think the trade is Rubio + Edwards + Future 1st(s) as needed. But if Wolves retain their 2021, 76ers (most likely 3rd team) would really want both Edwards + Top 3. 76ers have interesting value back to close the gap. Thybulle, Maxey and combination of 1sts make for multiple solutions.

[Worm Guts]

Really feeling like a player like Russell Westbrook could change the culture here.

DLO, Rubio for Westbrook straight up maybe add in Bolmaro and a second rounder if Washington wants to tank I feel like that's a decent offer.

I would have no interest in Westbrook's contract.

[shrink]

Would you guys trade Rubio, Edwards and '24 FRP for Simmons?

Or if you get a top 3 pick this year - Rubio, Juancho, Culver, pick 1-3 for Simmons?

Or you keep the top 3 pick and try rebuild around them and Edwards?

Adding Simmons would be a great addition. The Wolves biggest holes are in defense, and at PF, and Simmons could fill both. Rosas likes lots of passing and ball-handling on the floor. MIN also wants to win now, and Simmons and Towns are good friends already. Finally, there is probably no better player in the NBA to maximize Simmons than KAT.

Still, adding Simmons is not without its downside. Simmons value is capped because he is tough to build around, and his lack of shooting doesn’t maximize Towns on the perimeter (though we’d likely play him a lot in the dunker position). Simmons also doesn’t maximize Russell, and both players do better with the ball in their hands. Finally, Simmons would be a third max deal. It would be difficult to build around these three players with so little financial flexibility. Rosas showed last year that he’d rather give up a pick to send out Wiggins max deal, rather than trade Covington for Russell and be financially pinned down.

I think the optimum Simmons trade for the Wolves sends out D’Angelo Russell, which solves two of the three problems I just listed. Russell is clearly a negative deal right now, but he is less negative in PHI where he could be a good fit. If MIN could get Simmons for DLo, Beasley, and the #2 or #3 pick, I think that would be a win. I expect they keep Edwards, and if they aren’t moving out Russell, then they’d keep the top 3 pick as well.

You talk about the difficulty of building enough shooting around Simmons, yet your trade proposal sends out the team's two best shooters (by percentage). BTW don't forget Russell and Simmons were high school teammates at Monteverde Academy. They have a history of playing together.

I don't think Rosas would be afraid of a third max guy, nor should he be. He's shown the ability to find gems on the cheap that are a big part of filling out a roster.

If Rosas decides a big move is needed, this is one that makes a lot of sense to me in a lot of ways. I think the difficulty would enter in the picture if Philadelphia would try to pry Jaden McDaniels from us.

I believe people get too excited about three point percentage. A 40% three point shooter, vs a 36% three point shooter, will make one extra basket every 25 attempts. A player simply needs to be adequate as a three point shooter for the defenses to have to cover him out to the line. The problem occurs when a player is down in the 32% range, and the analytics say to not cover him as hard, and these defenders can take away shots from other players.

Every team should be concerned about having three max deals, but especially MIN, who is down a pick, not a free agent destination, and may have lux concerns even before a Ben Simmons trade. Has Rosas found talent on the cheap that would be a starter on a contender? How about a starter? How about players that can simply defend? He has used draft picks - some look good, some look not so good so far - and our twenty or so free agent signings over the last 1.5 years are hot and cold as well. Regardless, even if a good player wanted to join the Wolves, having only the MLE to offer (if that) severely limits our chances of finding a complimentary piece. It is a very big deal to have max players locked up on longterm deals for several years.

As for mentioning Simmons friendship with Towns, I always try to keep in mind how a move affects his happiness (moreso that Russell’s happiness). But the truth is, nobody truly know how a DLo trade would affect KAT. I will say that KAT is very concerned about his image and his reputation, and adding a winning player may be more important than the Buddy-Buddy constraint people take for granted with KAT and DLo. Better still if a DLo replacement is more talented and also a friend of his.


Edit: It’s fun to think about adding that one big name player, especially since we’ve rarely had two stars on the team at the same time. The truth though is that we are still far from one big name player putting us over the top. Despite our record, there are things to point to, that show we may be making some of the moves that get us closer. We have gotten some adequate bench players on the cheap. Our 1st pick may be worthy of being the 1st pick. Jaden McDaniels looks like he may be a nice find. These are all necessary steps. But if you did any of these Simmons trades, it’d be fun to see the team play, but we aren’t a legit contender yet. We still have some growing to do.

[TheZachAttack]

:oops:

I read it. I just don’t see the top 4 picks in this draft having more value than Edwards. AE has way more current value than anyone coming out next year.

I was referring to Edwards based on his draft value. I referred to LaMelo because he’s ranked 3 in the most recent rankings compared to Edwards at 20 or what not. That’s it. It’s not that deep pal.

My bad if I’m not reading your post properly. It seems to me you were saying the top 3-4 picks have more current value than AE. If that’s not the case, I apologize

Maybe, I guess the initial reaction to my post and correlation to that post somehow indicative of "hating" on Edwards is my main problem with the response. I'll go a little bit deeper into what I intended the takeaway to be:

If you listen to podcasts like the John Hollinger podcast or from other individuals who are pretty tapped into what NBA front offices are thinking you'll know the following:

1. Last year, Edwards (and Ball for that matter) were generally regarded as Tier 3 or Tier 4 prospects (closer to Tier 3 out of 5) because of the way that GMs viewed their floors.

2. In this draft, GMs generally are viewing the top 4 prospects as all Tier 4 or even true Tier 5 guys (all-star/superstar potential).

3. It's true that Edwards has proven that he's likely going to be a guy that trends closer to his ceiling than his floor. Ball has also proven the same thing. Both of them have more value now around the league than they did at the time of the draft. Ball was ranked as the #3 under 24 players in the league and Edwards was ranked #21.

4. If GMs perceive that the top 4 picks have that Tier 5 type of future value, which would be something similar to what GMs perceive Ball to be now, what kind of value does that pick have?

5. That has nothing to do with Edwards value, the way I think about Edwards, being negative on Edwards, or hating on Edwards future value. It seems like, right or wrong, that GMs would view these top 4 picks (and certainly a top 3 pick) to have the type of value that Edwards or Ball would have now or potentially even better (again right or wrong).

My argument had nothing to do with being negative on Edwards, in fact, it's the opposite. My point was if we are so excited about Edwards future potential, and I know many of us are, what is the value of another player with an additional year of rookie eligibility who has that same type of potential or better (or at least seems to be perceived to have that type of value around the league).

You or I may have a better idea of Ant's current value compared to the way the league perceives that value. To that extent, that is why I was doing a thought experiment about the type of player that could be landed. I think it's entirely possible that GMs around the league are over-perceiving the value of the top 4 picks and under perceiving the value of Edwards.

My argument actually even builds upon your opinion that Ant is worth more than the top 4 picks. If that's the case and GMs perceive the value of this pick to be something similar to the way they view players in the top 5 of that under 24 list, could we get a steal of a return and keep Ant?

This thought experiment was met with a "It's so ridiculous and dumb that all of you hate on Edwards and want to criticize and find all the negatives in a 19 year old player" strawman that had nothing to do with my post at all and was just a grand stand against a perceived straw man.

[shrink]

A Memphis poster suggested that MEM has so much youth right now, that they may want to give them minutes, and trade their pick (#14-20) for a future pick. I wrote

If MIN loses it’s 1st to GSW, how about MIN’s top 10 protected 2022 1st?

MEM may prefer top 8 protections for more upside, but the fact that it’s MIN protects MEM from the downside of many other teams creeping the pick into the 20’s, and the Grizz losing ground. 2022 may be the double-draft too. I guess protections would be easier to determine when the exact value of the MEM pick becomes clear.

Rosas probably wants to be in this draft, and acquire as much talent now as he can.

Fair? And would you do it?

[shrink]

If you listen to podcasts like the John Hollinger podcast or from other individuals who are pretty tapped into what NBA front offices are thinking you'll know the following:

1. Last year, Edwards (and Ball for that matter) were generally regarded as Tier 3 or Tier 4 prospects (closer to Tier 3 out of 5) because of the way that GMs viewed their floors.

2. In this draft, GMs generally are viewing the top 4 prospects as all Tier 4 or even true Tier 5 guys (all-star/superstar potential).

3. It's true that Edwards has proven that he's likely going to be a guy that trends closer to his ceiling than his floor...

My argument actually even builds upon your opinion that Ant is worth more than the top 4 picks.

Though I am a bit lower on Edwards than you, I wanted to say that this is a very solid post, with facts backing up your position.

The Trade Board did a poll on Edwards just last week, if you’re curious.

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2072057

[TheZachAttack]

If you listen to podcasts like the John Hollinger podcast or from other individuals who are pretty tapped into what NBA front offices are thinking you'll know the following:

1. Last year, Edwards (and Ball for that matter) were generally regarded as Tier 3 or Tier 4 prospects (closer to Tier 3 out of 5) because of the way that GMs viewed their floors.

2. In this draft, GMs generally are viewing the top 4 prospects as all Tier 4 or even true Tier 5 guys (all-star/superstar potential).

3. It's true that Edwards has proven that he's likely going to be a guy that trends closer to his ceiling than his floor...

My argument actually even builds upon your opinion that Ant is worth more than the top 4 picks.

Though I am a bit lower on Edwards than you, I wanted to say that this is a very solid post, with facts backing up your position.

The Trade Board did a poll on Edwards just last week, if you’re curious.

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2072057

Interesting, I think that it's a fair opinion--at this point--to put Edwards as low as 5 (I would not put Kuminga over him as he is just as raw as Edwards is or was). That being said, I'm also not sure if Cunningham/Suggs and even Mobley have as high of a ceiling as Edwards. I think Green and to a maxed out Mobley probably have as high of a ceiling or better though.

[Neeva]

A Memphis poster suggested that MEM has so much youth right now, that they may want to give them minutes, and trade their pick (#14-20) for a future pick. I wrote

If MIN loses it’s 1st to GSW, how about MIN’s top 10 protected 2022 1st?

MEM may prefer top 8 protections for more upside, but the fact that it’s MIN protects MEM from the downside of many other teams creeping the pick into the 20’s, and the Grizz losing ground. 2022 may be the double-draft too. I guess protections would be easier to determine when the exact value of the MEM pick becomes clear.

Rosas probably wants to be in this draft, and acquire as much talent now as he can.

Fair? And would you do it?

NO this draft class is shallow.

[Note30]

Really feeling like a player like Russell Westbrook could change the culture here.

DLO, Rubio for Westbrook straight up maybe add in Bolmaro and a second rounder if Washington wants to tank I feel like that's a decent offer.

I would have no interest in Westbrook's contract.

Westbrook has two years? 40 million each but DLo is around 30. I would gladly pay the diff

[Worm Guts]

Really feeling like a player like Russell Westbrook could change the culture here.

DLO, Rubio for Westbrook straight up maybe add in Bolmaro and a second rounder if Washington wants to tank I feel like that's a decent offer.

I would have no interest in Westbrook's contract.

Westbrook has two years? 40 million each but DLo is around 30. I would gladly pay the diff

He’s declining, we’re already up against the lux, and he’s not a difference maker anymore (despite averaging a triple double)

[Note30]

I would have no interest in Westbrook's contract.

Westbrook has two years? 40 million each but DLo is around 30. I would gladly pay the diff

He’s declining, we’re already up against the lux, and he’s not a difference maker anymore (despite averaging a triple double)

He hasn't shown any signs of decline. I've been watching him. If we sign anyone else well also hit the tax. Whether he's a difference maker or not is up to debate, but I'd say he's exactly what the Wolves need. A playoff veteran star PG that's a good teammate. He'll bail the Wolves out. We don't have any of that right now.

He makes us one large step closer to a playoff team.

If we keep our pick we will have enough firepower to make the playoffs

Thats more than I can say about any of our PGs.

[IceManBK1]

Dlo for Toppins, quickley and mitch.. Who says no..

[Worm Guts]

Westbrook has two years? 40 million each but DLo is around 30. I would gladly pay the diff

He’s declining, we’re already up against the lux, and he’s not a difference maker anymore (despite averaging a triple double)

He hasn't shown any signs of decline. I've been watching him. If we sign anyone else well also hit the tax. Whether he's a difference maker or not is up to debate, but I'd say he's exactly what the Wolves need. A playoff veteran star PG that's a good teammate. He'll bail the Wolves out. We don't have any of that right now.

He makes us one large step closer to a playoff team.

If we keep our pick we will have enough firepower to make the playoffs

Thats more than I can say about any of our PGs.

I don’t watch him but his advanced stats show decline, his current team isn’t good despite having another all-star, and his salary leaves no margin for error.

[Wolveswin]

Dlo for Toppins, quickley and mitch.. Who says no..

Did you forget the green font?

Take out any one of those three players and Knicks say no as offered for DLO by themselves. Together that is insulting and homerism at its finest.