Trade Talk (Part Eight)

[KGdaBom]

First I don't understand that Simmons role here would reduce his numbers. He got those numbers playing on a more talented team in Philly.
Getting a young all star in his prime is 33 million well spent. We can go round and round on this forever if you want. Actually we cant. I'm tired of it. I made another reply to you that's right above this one that spells out my stance so you read it and try to comprehend it. We don't need to continue on this.

You keep falling back to him being an all-star, that is subjective and I don't think he should have ever made the team. Market size definitely played a role for the league to maximize it's marketing potential and profitability.

And I notice you didn't answer my question!

The irony here is pretty amusing to me. He's a three time all star and you're the one saying he should never have been an all star. Thus we have an objective measure of past voting and you disregard that and claim others are being subjective.

We have an objective measure of advanced stats to support how good he is and you reject that.

I will no longer respond to anything So Money has to say about Simmons. He doesn't discuss in good faith. He claims I'm not backing up my belief in Simmons which I am. He claims I did not answer his question which I did. My answer So Money if you read it here is we turn a never was player into an all star is what makes it worth the 33 million. I tried to be polite to him pointing out the difference in how we look at it and acknowledging I could be wrong and he just keeps coming back with uncalled for rude retorts. I don't want to put him on ignore again, but the path is leading that way.

[jpatrick]

Projected stats over the next 3 years please?

What you are saying is empty otherwise if you are not assessing the difference between the two players and what the $33mil difference is worth.

Can you tell me what the Wolves are going to use that extra 33m on with no cap space either way? At least over the next few years unless we start dumping some of our “stars.”

Can you answer my question, before asking your own?

And the answer of your question is easy.

If you are willing to trade expirings and a 1st, there is a pathway to keep Beasley, Reid, forget McDaniels and add a starting PF. A more likely pathway leads to keeping one of Beasley or Reid and gaining a starting PF. Literally, we could likely get Lauri for expirings and a 1st right now. Gordon could again be a target as he will be a UFA and DEN might not want to pay him. There are options other than Simmons.

Stats have little effect on wins. I think McDaniels has little chance at stardom. His skill level just isn’t there. He struggles to create. Could he become Paul George? Yes. Is it likely? No. It’s very minimal.

I think best case scenario is more of a Mikal Bridges, which is a darn good player. But not an offensive hub. And to get there, McDaniels has to significantly improve his shooting. I like McDaniels ALOT, the hope is to get Simmons without moving McDaniels. Throw as many future picks as it takes. If McDaniels is as good as you clearly think, when combined with Ant, KAT, DLo, and Simmons, those picks will be in the high 20s.

Gordon isn’t moving. Lauri could be had, same with Nance, they just don’t move the needle. There are options, but Simmons could make a huge difference, not help us get the 9th seed.

If you don’t like Simmons’ game, I get it. He’s a particular fit. But I think for a team like ours that is cap out for the next few years no matter what (and honestly we have to overpay for any FA anyway), that money makes minimal difference.

[SO_MONEY]

You keep falling back to him being an all-star, that is subjective and I don't think he should have ever made the team. Market size definitely played a role for the league to maximize it's marketing potential and profitability.

And I notice you didn't answer my question!

The irony here is pretty amusing to me. He's a three time all star and you're the one saying he should never have been an all star. Thus we have an objective measure of past voting and you disregard that and claim others are being subjective.

We have an objective measure of advanced stats to support how good he is and you reject that.

I will no longer respond to anything So Money has to say about Simmons. He doesn't discuss in good faith. He claims I'm not backing up my belief in Simmons which I am. He claims I did not answer his question which I did. My answer So Money if you read it here is we turn a never was player into an all star is what makes it worth the 33 million. I tried to be polite to him pointing out the difference in how we look at it and acknowledging I could be wrong and he just keeps coming back with uncalled for rude retorts. I don't want to put him on ignore again, but the path is leading that way.

I am the only one between us acting in good faith, you know exactly where I stand. Your idea of bad faith is asking questions or giving my own assessments or bring up points that conflict with your world view. It is getting old.

That is why I have gone for the jugular...it is tiring having you revert to the same points that don't mean anything...put up or shut up. Answer the question what do you expect the difference statistically to be between Simmons and McDaniels year by year for the next 3 years? That way we know what you expect to get for the $33mil difference?

And I know it is a trap, you know it is a trap that is why you won't respond. The difference isn't worth $33mil. You just don't want to expose that flaw in your assessment.

SPOILER: any moderately honest person would concede this and the board knows who is or isn't being honest here and who is or isn't acting in good faith. You are not a victim here!!! You haven't been polite and I have not been any ruder or dismissive my contemporary.

[KGdaBom]

The irony here is pretty amusing to me. He's a three time all star and you're the one saying he should never have been an all star. Thus we have an objective measure of past voting and you disregard that and claim others are being subjective.

We have an objective measure of advanced stats to support how good he is and you reject that.

I will no longer respond to anything So Money has to say about Simmons. He doesn't discuss in good faith. He claims I'm not backing up my belief in Simmons which I am. He claims I did not answer his question which I did. My answer So Money if you read it here is we turn a never was player into an all star is what makes it worth the 33 million. I tried to be polite to him pointing out the difference in how we look at it and acknowledging I could be wrong and he just keeps coming back with uncalled for rude retorts. I don't want to put him on ignore again, but the path is leading that way.

I am the only one between us acting in good faith, you know exactly where I stand. Your idea of bad faith is asking questions or giving my own assessments or bring up points that conflict with your world view. It is getting old.

That is why I have gone for the jugular...it is tiring having you revert to the same points that don't mean anything...put up or shut up. Answer the question what do you expect the difference statistically to be between Simmons and McDaniels year by year for the next 3 years? That way we know what you expect to get for the $33mil difference?

And I know it is a trap, you know it is a trap that is why you won't respond. The difference isn't worth $33mil. You just don't want to expose that flaw in your assessment.

SPOILER: any moderately honest person would concede this and the board knows who is or isn't being honest here and who is or isn't acting in good faith. You are not a victim here!!! You haven't been polite and I have not been any ruder or dismissive my contemporary.

As always given any opportunity you act like a jerk. I tried to be nice. I'm not going to respond to the crap you've typed here and you are on ignore permanently so you can get the last word.

[shrink]

I thought people might want to hear this. It’s from the NBA Front Office Podcast.

“I know we’ve heard Simmons wants to be in California somewhere, and he’s all about that lifestyle. But if I’m Ben Simmons though, this may not be the worst thing if he ends up on the Timberwolves. Out of the spotlight, you’re on a franchise that has been down in the dumps for years and years and years now. You’re not going to make things any worse by coming there - in fact, if anything, your arrival, if they suddenly become a playoff team - guess what? You get to be the hero that helped lift this franchise up, and the expectations are not going to be as high. But in terms of getting his career back on track - I don’t think this is the worst outcome.”


“Karl-Anthony Towns has never said he wants to be traded, or anything like that. He’s been extremely loyal, and there has never even been buzz except from every other fanbase, who says KAT needs to go somewhere else. So if you’re the Wolves, you say, “yeah, we don’t even want to get it to that point.” We don’t want a Lillard situation, where maybe I’m sorta thinking about a trade. We don’t want that. Karl-Anthony towns, in Minnesota, is starting to feel a little like KG in Minnesota, where KG never wanted to leave! It’s something with Minnesota .. guys like it there! I know, it seems cold all the time .. and you, you’ve basically been a southern climate kind of guy for a longtime, I have been too, so we’re like, “yeah, Minnesota seems like, awful. It’s terrible in the winter!” But guys LOVE it there! Nobody ever wants to leave when they get there, so it’s one of those things where they’re doing something right. I’ve only been there twice in my life, and everybody was so nice, so that’s part of it too.

[Domejandro]

If you expect McDaniels to improve in his numbers and you understand Simmons role here would reduce his numbers….

This is such a ridiculous premise that it deserves to be directly called out. No, Ben Simmons’ stats would not significantly decline in Minnesota, especially within the context of Minnesota sending out some sort of scorer (whether it be D’Angelo Russell or Malik Beasley). Only counting starters, Ben Simmons’ usage rate was lower than Karl-Anthony Towns, D’Angelo Russell, Anthony Edwards, and Malik Beasley. Ben Simmons is hyper-efficient within the context of an already low usage rate.

The frustrating thing about wasting time engaging with this is that every time a long post is made about his defense or him being the League best cutter (for non-centers), this gets hand-waved away and those aspects of his game are called overrated. When his three All-Star appearances and Third Team All NBA appearances are continually called “undeserved”, it reeks of such unbelievable bad faith that it pretty much leaves no room for honest discussion.

Everyone in favour of trading for Simmons acknowledges his undeniably massive hole as a shooter and have each placed varying levels of value that they would trade for Ben Simmons. It’s a little lame to then see that his undeniable strengths as a defender, creator, and paint scorer are then twisted as not that impressive. I’ve already explained the usage rate data before, and we still live in a world where Ben Simmons’ stats crater as a player on the Timberwolves.

[SO_MONEY]

I will no longer respond to anything So Money has to say about Simmons. He doesn't discuss in good faith. He claims I'm not backing up my belief in Simmons which I am. He claims I did not answer his question which I did. My answer So Money if you read it here is we turn a never was player into an all star is what makes it worth the 33 million. I tried to be polite to him pointing out the difference in how we look at it and acknowledging I could be wrong and he just keeps coming back with uncalled for rude retorts. I don't want to put him on ignore again, but the path is leading that way.

I am the only one between us acting in good faith, you know exactly where I stand. Your idea of bad faith is asking questions or giving my own assessments or bring up points that conflict with your world view. It is getting old.

That is why I have gone for the jugular...it is tiring having you revert to the same points that don't mean anything...put up or shut up. Answer the question what do you expect the difference statistically to be between Simmons and McDaniels year by year for the next 3 years? That way we know what you expect to get for the $33mil difference?

And I know it is a trap, you know it is a trap that is why you won't respond. The difference isn't worth $33mil. You just don't want to expose that flaw in your assessment.

SPOILER: any moderately honest person would concede this and the board knows who is or isn't being honest here and who is or isn't acting in good faith. You are not a victim here!!! You haven't been polite and I have not been any ruder or dismissive my contemporary.

As always given any opportunity you act like a jerk. I tried to be nice. I'm not going to respond to the crap you've typed here and you are on ignore permanently so you can get the last word.

We get it you want to play the victim to conceal the fact you won't answer a question that would demonstrate you would be willing to pay $33mil for marginal statistical differences, ignoring all other outgoing players.

I thought you weren't going to respond.

Maybe that is for the best? Huh?

I have made my point and you are only drawing attention to my position being reasonable by not answering...even though over and over you claimed it wasn't.

[ChuckDurn]

What is a decent starting contributor? Stats or an example player?

He can't answer because it is marginally different than what Simmons puts up and he knows it will expose his terrible assessment of how you commit the difference in salary. He knows it, I know it, the entire board knows it. And this isn't even Simmons vs McDaniels, because more would need to be outgoing.

The unrealzied upside of Mcdaniels is Jonathan Isaac or Otto Porter in my opinion. That's if everything works out. That is a level far below the realized version of Ben Simmons that we have now. And by the time Mcdaniels adds 20 lbs and eventually realizes that potential (big if), it will be time to pay him is market rate. Until then, do you want to win now and maximize Towns/Russell's prime or no?

Greetings..... I'm a Warriors fan, though years ago I was a regular visitor to this board (or maybe it was when ESPN had message boards...... I can't recall. It's been a while.....)

Just checked in on this conversation, and reviewed the last 15-20 comments. As a fairly independent observer, this comment seems spot-on. McDaniels has potential, but that's all it is right now, and he has a long way to go to achieve it..... I suspect McDaniels would start on at most 5 teams right now, if that, and none of those teams would be playoff contenders. If he does reach his potential, he's going to get paid. But comparing him to Simmons right now is laughable, or using McDaniels as a reason not to pursue Simmons is lunacy. Yes, Simmons melted down in the playoffs, and has a well-identified limitation. But he's an elite DPOY candidate every year, and also a problem for teams to defend as long as he has shooters around him (i.e. when there's spacing that allows him to get to the hoop, which he does easily). I think his free throw shooting in the playoffs is fixable (while not great, he shoots 60% in the regular season, and if he hit that in the playoffs, it would be fine), and then he wouldn't be afraid to go to the hoop there. Much of what he does, and the value he brings, doesn't show up in conventional stats, and the advanced stats show that Simmons is excellent.

Put another way - as a Warriors fan, I'd be way more concerned having to go against a team with Simmons, KAT, Edwards, and Russell than any incarnation that doesn't include Simmons.

[KGdaBom]

He can't answer because it is marginally different than what Simmons puts up and he knows it will expose his terrible assessment of how you commit the difference in salary. He knows it, I know it, the entire board knows it. And this isn't even Simmons vs McDaniels, because more would need to be outgoing.

The unrealzied upside of Mcdaniels is Jonathan Isaac or Otto Porter in my opinion. That's if everything works out. That is a level far below the realized version of Ben Simmons that we have now. And by the time Mcdaniels adds 20 lbs and eventually realizes that potential (big if), it will be time to pay him is market rate. Until then, do you want to win now and maximize Towns/Russell's prime or no?

Greetings..... I'm a Warriors fan, though years ago I was a regular visitor to this board (or maybe it was when ESPN had message boards...... I can't recall. It's been a while.....)

Just checked in on this conversation, and reviewed the last 15-20 comments. As a fairly independent observer, this comment seems spot-on. McDaniels has potential, but that's all it is right now, and he has a long way to go to achieve it..... I suspect McDaniels would start on at most 5 teams right now, if that, and none of those teams would be playoff contenders. If he does reach his potential, he's going to get paid. But comparing him to Simmons right now is laughable, or using McDaniels as a reason not to pursue Simmons is lunacy. Yes, Simmons melted down in the playoffs, and has a well-identified limitation. But he's an elite DPOY candidate every year, and also a problem for teams to defend as long as he has shooters around him (i.e. when there's spacing that allows him to get to the hoop, which he does easily). I think his free throw shooting in the playoffs is fixable (while not great, he shoots 60% in the regular season, and if he hit that in the playoffs, it would be fine), and then he wouldn't be afraid to go to the hoop there. Much of what he does, and the value he brings, doesn't show up in conventional stats, and the advanced stats show that Simmons is excellent.

Put another way - as a Warriors fan, I'd be way more concerned having to go against a team with Simmons, KAT, Edwards, and Russell than any incarnation that doesn't include Simmons.

I remember you. Nice of you to check in since I totally agree with you.

[VeritasTri]

I am the only one between us acting in good faith, you know exactly where I stand. Your idea of bad faith is asking questions or giving my own assessments or bring up points that conflict with your world view. It is getting old.

That is why I have gone for the jugular...it is tiring having you revert to the same points that don't mean anything...put up or shut up. Answer the question what do you expect the difference statistically to be between Simmons and McDaniels year by year for the next 3 years? That way we know what you expect to get for the $33mil difference?

And I know it is a trap, you know it is a trap that is why you won't respond. The difference isn't worth $33mil. You just don't want to expose that flaw in your assessment.

SPOILER: any moderately honest person would concede this and the board knows who is or isn't being honest here and who is or isn't acting in good faith. You are not a victim here!!! You haven't been polite and I have not been any ruder or dismissive my contemporary.

Do teams play for stats or do they play for wins? You keep regurgitating this notion that Simmons simply scores a couple more points, grabs a couple more rebounds, and gets a few more assists and thats the extent of the impact differential between the two players, its laughable. McDaniels will never have Simmons BBIQ, feel, and ability to control the game, he has zero offensive impact that cant be had from guys like Prince. He will never be more than a 4th option here, a spot up shooter and cutter. And thats probably what suits him best considering his lack of a handle, high center of gravity, and weighing 40 lbs less than our shooting guard.

Since raw stats is all you look to for your "argument" then it shouldnt be difficult to determine which of the below players helps your team win.

24/3/4
16/4/9
21/3/7

Based on your "logic" you would rather have John Wall or Collin Sexton on your team than Chris Paul.

[SO_MONEY]

He can't answer because it is marginally different than what Simmons puts up and he knows it will expose his terrible assessment of how you commit the difference in salary. He knows it, I know it, the entire board knows it. And this isn't even Simmons vs McDaniels, because more would need to be outgoing.

The unrealzied upside of Mcdaniels is Jonathan Isaac or Otto Porter in my opinion. That's if everything works out. That is a level far below the realized version of Ben Simmons that we have now. And by the time Mcdaniels adds 20 lbs and eventually realizes that potential (big if), it will be time to pay him is market rate. Until then, do you want to win now and maximize Towns/Russell's prime or no?

Greetings..... I'm a Warriors fan, though years ago I was a regular visitor to this board (or maybe it was when ESPN had message boards...... I can't recall. It's been a while.....)

Just checked in on this conversation, and reviewed the last 15-20 comments. As a fairly independent observer, this comment seems spot-on. McDaniels has potential, but that's all it is right now, and he has a long way to go to achieve it..... I suspect McDaniels would start on at most 5 teams right now, if that, and none of those teams would be playoff contenders. If he does reach his potential, he's going to get paid. But comparing him to Simmons right now is laughable, or using McDaniels as a reason not to pursue Simmons is lunacy. Yes, Simmons melted down in the playoffs, and has a well-identified limitation. But he's an elite DPOY candidate every year, and also a problem for teams to defend as long as he has shooters around him (i.e. when there's spacing that allows him to get to the hoop, which he does easily). I think his free throw shooting in the playoffs is fixable (while not great, he shoots 60% in the regular season, and if he hit that in the playoffs, it would be fine), and then he wouldn't be afraid to go to the hoop there. Much of what he does, and the value he brings, doesn't show up in conventional stats, and the advanced stats show that Simmons is excellent.

Put another way - as a Warriors fan, I'd be way more concerned having to go against a team with Simmons, KAT, Edwards, and Russell than any incarnation that doesn't include Simmons.

Respectfully this is the same argument that has been made and ignores all the counterpoints. But really you are repeating their mistake by making this strictly about Simmons vs McDaniels, that isn't the argument. The argument is if McDaniels is worth keeping because he offers irreplaceable value and if it would be wiser targeting a different player while keeping some assets, that is if a deal for Simmons without McDaniels can't happen...and if the cumulative effect of that path is a better use of the teams funds to maximize production.

[KGdaBom]

I am the only one between us acting in good faith, you know exactly where I stand. Your idea of bad faith is asking questions or giving my own assessments or bring up points that conflict with your world view. It is getting old.

That is why I have gone for the jugular...it is tiring having you revert to the same points that don't mean anything...put up or shut up. Answer the question what do you expect the difference statistically to be between Simmons and McDaniels year by year for the next 3 years? That way we know what you expect to get for the $33mil difference?

And I know it is a trap, you know it is a trap that is why you won't respond. The difference isn't worth $33mil. You just don't want to expose that flaw in your assessment.

SPOILER: any moderately honest person would concede this and the board knows who is or isn't being honest here and who is or isn't acting in good faith. You are not a victim here!!! You haven't been polite and I have not been any ruder or dismissive my contemporary.

Do teams play for stats or do they play for wins? You keep regurgitating this notion that Simmons simply scores a couple more points, grabs a couple more rebounds, and gets a few more assists and thats the extent of the impact differential between the two players, its laughable. McDaniels will never have Simmons BBIQ, feel, and ability to control the game, he has zero offensive impact that cant be had from guys like Prince. He will never be more than a 4th option here, a spot up shooter and cutter. And thats probably what suits him best considering his lack of a handle, high center of gravity, and weighing 40 lbs less than our shooting guard.

Since raw stats is all you look to for your "argument" then it shouldnt be difficult to determine which of the below players helps your team win.

24/3/4
16/4/9
21/3/7

Based on your "logic" you would rather have John Wall or Collin Sexton on your team than Chris Paul.

Well stated, but IMO any responses to So Money I now have to consider feeding the troll.

[SO_MONEY]

I am the only one between us acting in good faith, you know exactly where I stand. Your idea of bad faith is asking questions or giving my own assessments or bring up points that conflict with your world view. It is getting old.

That is why I have gone for the jugular...it is tiring having you revert to the same points that don't mean anything...put up or shut up. Answer the question what do you expect the difference statistically to be between Simmons and McDaniels year by year for the next 3 years? That way we know what you expect to get for the $33mil difference?

And I know it is a trap, you know it is a trap that is why you won't respond. The difference isn't worth $33mil. You just don't want to expose that flaw in your assessment.

SPOILER: any moderately honest person would concede this and the board knows who is or isn't being honest here and who is or isn't acting in good faith. You are not a victim here!!! You haven't been polite and I have not been any ruder or dismissive my contemporary.

Do teams play for stats or do they play for wins? You keep regurgitating this notion that Simmons simply scores a couple more points, grabs a couple more rebounds, and gets a few more assists and thats the extent of the impact differential between the two players, its laughable. McDaniels will never have Simmons BBIQ, feel, and ability to control the game, he has zero offensive impact that cant be had from guys like Prince. He will never be more than a 4th option here, a spot up shooter and cutter. And thats probably what suits him best considering his lack of a handle, high center of gravity, and weighing 40 lbs less than our shooting guard.

Since raw stats is all you look to for your "argument" then it shouldnt be difficult to determine which of the below players helps your team win.

24/3/4
16/4/9
21/3/7

Based on your "logic" you would rather have John Wall or Collin Sexton on your team than Chris Paul.

You have no idea what my logic is because you are teeing this up for me...

Based on "advanced" stats McDaniels wins you games because on a crap team with crap defenders around him +/- says this is what he does, that he is a winning player, that in his rookie season he had a massive impact.

In short I view both Simmons and McDaniels as winning players, so yes the next thing you would want to compare are stats and production to weight how to maximize production per dollar.

[Battletrigger]

I think that one person pointed before that the real Simmons haters talked like people that have never seen him play or only a very few games and It seems to be clear as water.

[VeritasTri]

You have no idea what my logic is because you are teeing this up for me...

Based on "advanced" stats McDaniels wins you games because on a crap team with crap defenders around him +/- says this is what he does, that he is a winning player, that in his rookie season he had a massive impact.

In short I view both Simmons and McDaniels winning players, so yes the next thing you would want to compare are stats.

What advanced stats show McDaniels wins you games? his .046 WS/48? his negative OBPM, negative DBPM, negative BPM, negative VORP...those advanced stats? Maybe you mean his 116 Drtg? How about you actually quantify one thing you have said with anything to back it?

You know who McDaniels advanced stats resemble? Guys like Prince.
WS/48 .046 vs .038
OBPM -3.4 vs -1.6
DBPM -0.3 vs -0.3
BPM -3.8 vs -1.9
VORP -0.7 vs 0.1

Shooting (mac/Prince)
.447/.364/.600 vs .411/.370/.823 (apparently McDaniels 60% ft shooting is just fine since hes incapable of drawing fouls anyways)

TRB% 8.3 vs 8.8, AST% 6.4 vs 11.4

You cant even make a strong statistical argument that McDaniels is a better player than a journeyman nobody like Prince, but you want to pretend you can make a comparison to Simmons?

I feel bad going after McDaniels like this because I do like him and love his fit on the team, he fills a void we need for a low usage defender who can knock down shots. But thats what he is, a role player, a low usage guy who feeds off the scraps others create for him and helps the team without demanding the ball. I would love to keep him if we dealt for Simmons, pairing those 2 guys at the 3/4 would be fantastic for us.

Please stop, this is never going to get any better for you.

[TheProdigy]

What is a decent starting contributor? Stats or an example player?

He can't answer because it is marginally different than what Simmons puts up and he knows it will expose his terrible assessment of how you commit the difference in salary. He knows it, I know it, the entire board knows it. And this isn't even Simmons vs McDaniels, because more would need to be outgoing.

The unrealzied upside of Mcdaniels is Jonathan Isaac or Otto Porter in my opinion. That's if everything works out. That is a level far below the realized version of Ben Simmons that we have now. And by the time Mcdaniels adds 20 lbs and eventually realizes that potential (big if), it will be time to pay him is market rate. Until then, do you want to win now and maximize Towns/Russell's prime or no?

This is a strange comparison. Both Porter and Isaac have seen their careers derailed by injuries at young age and can hardly stay on the court now. Are there any other examples of healthy players that would reflect your opinion of McDaniels' unrealized upside?

[KGdaBom]

He can't answer because it is marginally different than what Simmons puts up and he knows it will expose his terrible assessment of how you commit the difference in salary. He knows it, I know it, the entire board knows it. And this isn't even Simmons vs McDaniels, because more would need to be outgoing.

The unrealzied upside of Mcdaniels is Jonathan Isaac or Otto Porter in my opinion. That's if everything works out. That is a level far below the realized version of Ben Simmons that we have now. And by the time Mcdaniels adds 20 lbs and eventually realizes that potential (big if), it will be time to pay him is market rate. Until then, do you want to win now and maximize Towns/Russell's prime or no?

This is a strange comparison. Both Porter and Isaac have seen their careers derailed by injuries at young age and can hardly stay on the court now. Are there any other examples of healthy players that would reflect your opinion of McDaniels' unrealized upside?

I think Taurean Prince when he was a rising star a few years ago, but he was putting up much bigger numbers than McDaniels has so far. Who's the guy who went from Washington to Phoenix and has now moved on again? I can't recall his name, but he could be a good comparison for McDaniels to grow into.

[Note30]

If we did get Simmons for Prince and Beasley + Picks then lets do it.

Question I do have is could we still offer the MLE to Paul Millsap if we did?

A lineup of

DLo/ Bev
Edwards/Okogie
Simmons/McDaniels
Towns / Vando
Millsap / Reid

Could be pretty solid.

Obviously we would have to stagger DLo and Edwards with the second unit.

Then for small ball we could combine any variation of Beverly and Mc Daniels.

We'd still be one piece away in FA from there but if we bring in Bolmaro to back up the 2 spot and he does well it could be a pretty well rounded team. We'd still need a good addition to the 4/5 for the following seasons but we would be in a good spot.

[SmokeyPaw]

The unrealzied upside of Mcdaniels is Jonathan Isaac or Otto Porter in my opinion. That's if everything works out. That is a level far below the realized version of Ben Simmons that we have now. And by the time Mcdaniels adds 20 lbs and eventually realizes that potential (big if), it will be time to pay him is market rate. Until then, do you want to win now and maximize Towns/Russell's prime or no?

This is a strange comparison. Both Porter and Isaac have seen their careers derailed by injuries at young age and can hardly stay on the court now. Are there any other examples of healthy players that would reflect your opinion of McDaniels' unrealized upside?

I think Taurean Prince when he was a rising star a few years ago, but he was putting up much bigger numbers than McDaniels has so far. Who's the guy who went from Washington to Phoenix and has now moved on again? I can't recall his name, but he could be a good comparison for McDaniels to grow into.

Maybe you are thinking of oubre. Personnally not a fan of his. Ok on ball but poor team defender. Can score but one of the worst passing wings. Doesnt make anyone better.

Hoping for better.

[TheProdigy]

The unrealzied upside of Mcdaniels is Jonathan Isaac or Otto Porter in my opinion. That's if everything works out. That is a level far below the realized version of Ben Simmons that we have now. And by the time Mcdaniels adds 20 lbs and eventually realizes that potential (big if), it will be time to pay him is market rate. Until then, do you want to win now and maximize Towns/Russell's prime or no?

This is a strange comparison. Both Porter and Isaac have seen their careers derailed by injuries at young age and can hardly stay on the court now. Are there any other examples of healthy players that would reflect your opinion of McDaniels' unrealized upside?

I think Taurean Prince when he was a rising star a few years ago, but he was putting up much bigger numbers than McDaniels has so far. Who's the guy who went from Washington to Phoenix and has now moved on again? I can't recall his name, but he could be a good comparison for McDaniels to grow into.

You must have a much looser definition for "rising star" than I do.

McDaniels was a 20 year old rookie last year. His stats last year were better than Prince's were as a 22 year old rookie. If Prince ends up being McDaniels' ceiling, it will basically mean that McDaniels hasn't improved much at all from his rookie year. Furthermore, I'm not sure if this comparison holds since Prince is an average at best defender, while McDaniels projects to be much better than that.

For the record, I would agree that it's unlikely that McDaniels will reach the level Simmons is currently at. That being said, in a trade for Simmons, I would be very hesitant to send out McDaniels because he's a perfect fit on the court with Simmons (3&D).