Trade Talk (Part Four)

[Wolveswin]

Unprotected 2021 from the only franchise in the league run worse than the Wolves? Immediate YES!


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I think the best Knicks deal is...

#8 + Randle + Knox + 2021 or 2022 (unprotected Wolves option) + 2021 Dallas (unprotected)

FOR

#1 + Johnson + Spellman

The question becomes, can Wolves get the other Dallas 1st owed?

I am not sure I have seen a team trade a pick with the option to defer, but I know of no rule against it. It would have made the Stepian Rule tougher for NYK’s front office, but they have unprotected DAL picks to avoid it. This option would potentially give MIN two chances to get a top 4 lottery pick, so I estimate that it increases the value of their pick by 50%. I think that would make it too rich for the Knicks.

I love this out of the box thinking!

Thanks Shrink. I wish I could take credit. The Lakers did it with Pelicans (or maybe the Pelicans did it to Lakers). And I am pretty sure I have heard of it before that trade.

As for the deal, Knicks would have some value gain dumping Randle. Only 4MM guaranteed next year, but for a team still owing 6+MM to Noah next year, and wanting to be free agent players, seems like some value gain for them.

[Slim Tubby]

I would like to be able to squeeze Mitch Robinson out of their hands, but not sure it'd be possible. Has more perimeter/movement ability than people realize.

This is not a shot at you in any way, Klomp, but why would we want Robinson? Those of us that are proponents of taking Wiseman #1 have been told ad nauseam that it’s illegal to play 2 bigs at the same time in the current NBA.

Read my last sentence for the explanation why. It's never been about the player's size. It's about their skill and movement ability. I never completely ruled out the Wolves taking Wiseman if they felt he had the requisite skill set. Don't just watch Robinson's Knicks highlights. Go back and try to find some high school footage. Find some videos of him in a practice gym. There's an ease and greater comfort on the perimeter and with the ball than even Wiseman has.

That’s a fair explanation, Klomp!


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[KGdaBom]

I would like to be able to squeeze Mitch Robinson out of their hands, but not sure it'd be possible. Has more perimeter/movement ability than people realize.

This is not a shot at you in any way, Klomp, but why would we want Robinson? Those of us that are proponents of taking Wiseman #1 have been told ad nauseam that it’s illegal to play 2 bigs at the same time in the current NBA.

Read my last sentence for the explanation why. It's never been about the player's size. It's about their skill and movement ability. I never completely ruled out the Wolves taking Wiseman if they felt he had the requisite skill set. Don't just watch Robinson's Knicks highlights. Go back and try to find some high school footage. Find some videos of him in a practice gym. There's an ease and greater comfort on the perimeter and with the ball than even Wiseman has.

Klomp is Robinson about to set the NBA on fire with his 3 point shooting and slashing ability?
Seriously I thought you were only on board with a big if he had 3 point shooting, slashing, and perimeter defending ability. Any player without all three of those shouldn't be considered. Even Larry Nance who is somewhat talented at all of those you turned away.

[Klomp]

Klomp is Robinson about to set the NBA on fire with his 3 point shooting and slashing ability?
Seriously I thought you were only on board with a big if he had 3 point shooting, slashing, and perimeter defending ability. Any player without all three of those shouldn't be considered. Even Larry Nance who is somewhat talented at all of those you turned away.

Go find footage of him to see for yourself. Personally, I believe he'd be better-suited for the PF position in Minnesota than Wiseman or Nance or Dieng. Ultimately, he might play more C than PF here, but the need for a defensive C is still here if that's what they want to add to the rotation.

[KGdaBom]

Klomp is Robinson about to set the NBA on fire with his 3 point shooting and slashing ability?
Seriously I thought you were only on board with a big if he had 3 point shooting, slashing, and perimeter defending ability. Any player without all three of those shouldn't be considered. Even Larry Nance who is somewhat talented at all of those you turned away.

Go find footage of him to see for yourself. Personally, I believe he'd be better-suited for the PF position in Minnesota than Wiseman or Nance or Dieng. Ultimately, he might play more C than PF here, but the need for a defensive C is still here if that's what they want to add to the rotation.

Robinson is elite defensively if he can stay out of foul trouble. I'm not going to argue him being a better overall player than Nance or not. However, does he have all the skills you were requiring Nance to have before saying you'd turn down Nance for the #17 pick?

[shrink]

This is not a shot at you in any way, Klomp, but why would we want Robinson? Those of us that are proponents of taking Wiseman #1 have been told ad nauseam that it’s illegal to play 2 bigs at the same time in the current NBA.

Read my last sentence for the explanation why. It's never been about the player's size. It's about their skill and movement ability. I never completely ruled out the Wolves taking Wiseman if they felt he had the requisite skill set. Don't just watch Robinson's Knicks highlights. Go back and try to find some high school footage. Find some videos of him in a practice gym. There's an ease and greater comfort on the perimeter and with the ball than even Wiseman has.

That’s a fair explanation, Klomp!

First, I wanted to express kudos to Slim Tubby. Too often in an internet discussion, people refuse to listen to people with other views, and simply argue against them. It’s good to see this type of discussion, and even better to see someone acknowledge it.

Along those lines, I will admit I’ve been one of those posters that have said the Wolves will only play one big. I said this because it was what Rosas and Saunders kept repeating, and even against huge teams where using two bigs would clearly have been an option, they refused, saying, “we want them to adjust to us.” To their credit, this did happen - most notably when Utah was forced to move Gobert out from under the basket where he is a DPOY candidate, and play man on KAT. The goal was always to get the players to learn that scheme, regardless of the consequences.

This year, I have not heard the front office pound this home. Perhaps this is simply to keep people guessing whether they might take Wiseman, but still, other pundits have suggested that the Wolves may try a two big line up. I personally doubt it - offensively, one big maximizes Towns ability to create lanes if the “PF” can shoot three’s, and defensively, Towns biggest problem is his decision making, and if he can’t do that well as a center, he sure can’t do it making more decisions as a PF. Still, I think that if Wiseman is the best choice, he will get selected and they will figure it out - and I agree with Klomp, it would be Wiseman on the perimeter and not KAT. It is possible we see a change this year.

[KGdaBom]

Read my last sentence for the explanation why. It's never been about the player's size. It's about their skill and movement ability. I never completely ruled out the Wolves taking Wiseman if they felt he had the requisite skill set. Don't just watch Robinson's Knicks highlights. Go back and try to find some high school footage. Find some videos of him in a practice gym. There's an ease and greater comfort on the perimeter and with the ball than even Wiseman has.

That’s a fair explanation, Klomp!

First, I wanted to express kudos to Slim Tubby. Too often in an internet discussion, people refuse to listen to people with other views, and simply argue against them. It’s good to see this type of discussion, and even better to see someone acknowledge it.

Along those lines, I will admit I’ve been one of those posters that have said the Wolves will only play one big. I said this because it was what Rosas and Saunders kept repeating, and even against huge teams where using two bigs would clearly have been an option, they refused, saying, “we want them to adjust to us.” To their credit, this did happen - most notably when Utah was forced to move Gobert out from under the basket where he is a DPOY candidate, and play man on KAT. The goal was always to get the players to learn that scheme, regardless of the consequences.

This year, I have not heard the front office pound this home. Perhaps this is simply to keep people guessing whether they might take Wiseman, but still, other pundits have suggested that the Wolves may try a two big line up. I personally doubt it - offensively, one big maximizes Towns ability to create lanes if the “PF” can shoot three’s, and defensively, Towns biggest problem is his decision making, and if he can’t do that well as a center, he sure can’t do it making more decisions as a PF. Still, I think that if Wiseman is the best choice, he will get selected and they will figure it out - and I agree with Klomp, it would be Wiseman on the perimeter and not KAT. It is possible we see a change this year.

How about Okongwu?

[Klomp]

Klomp is Robinson about to set the NBA on fire with his 3 point shooting and slashing ability?
Seriously I thought you were only on board with a big if he had 3 point shooting, slashing, and perimeter defending ability. Any player without all three of those shouldn't be considered. Even Larry Nance who is somewhat talented at all of those you turned away.

Go find footage of him to see for yourself. Personally, I believe he'd be better-suited for the PF position in Minnesota than Wiseman or Nance or Dieng. Ultimately, he might play more C than PF here, but the need for a defensive C is still here if that's what they want to add to the rotation.

Robinson is elite defensively if he can stay out of foul trouble. I'm not going to argue him being a better overall player than Nance or not. However, does he have all the skills you were requiring Nance to have before saying you'd turn down Nance for the #17 pick?

Nance to me profiles like Taj Gibson. And we have intel from Saunders' interim season that he felt Gibson was better at C than PF.

Robinson has a different level of mobility and athleticism. His offensive game isn't super polished or refined, but it shows potential.

[Slim Tubby]

Read my last sentence for the explanation why. It's never been about the player's size. It's about their skill and movement ability. I never completely ruled out the Wolves taking Wiseman if they felt he had the requisite skill set. Don't just watch Robinson's Knicks highlights. Go back and try to find some high school footage. Find some videos of him in a practice gym. There's an ease and greater comfort on the perimeter and with the ball than even Wiseman has.

That’s a fair explanation, Klomp!

First, I wanted to express kudos to Slim Tubby. Too often in an internet discussion, people refuse to listen to people with other views, and simply argue against them. It’s good to see this type of discussion, and even better to see someone acknowledge it.

Along those lines, I will admit I’ve been one of those posters that have said the Wolves will only play one big. I said this because it was what Rosas and Saunders kept repeating, and even against huge teams where using two bigs would clearly have been an option, they refused, saying, “we want them to adjust to us.” To their credit, this did happen - most notably when Utah was forced to move Gobert out from under the basket where he is a DPOY candidate, and play man on KAT. The goal was always to get the players to learn that scheme, regardless of the consequences.

This year, I have not heard the front office pound this home. Perhaps this is simply to keep people guessing whether they might take Wiseman, but still, other pundits have suggested that the Wolves may try a two big line up. I personally doubt it - offensively, one big maximizes Towns ability to create lanes if the “PF” can shoot three’s, and defensively, Towns biggest problem is his decision making, and if he can’t do that well as a center, he sure can’t do it making more decisions as a PF. Still, I think that if Wiseman is the best choice, he will get selected and they will figure it out - and I agree with Klomp, it would be Wiseman on the perimeter and not KAT. It is possible we see a change this year.

Hypothetically, if we selected Wiseman, why would you put him on the perimeter with KAT in the lane even though Karl is the better proven 3-point shooter at this point? I’m not saying you guys are wrong...just curious about your thought process on this.


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[SO_MONEY]

Go find footage of him to see for yourself. Personally, I believe he'd be better-suited for the PF position in Minnesota than Wiseman or Nance or Dieng. Ultimately, he might play more C than PF here, but the need for a defensive C is still here if that's what they want to add to the rotation.

Robinson is elite defensively if he can stay out of foul trouble. I'm not going to argue him being a better overall player than Nance or not. However, does he have all the skills you were requiring Nance to have before saying you'd turn down Nance for the #17 pick?

Nance to me profiles like Taj Gibson. And we have intel from Saunders' interim season that he felt Gibson was better at C than PF.

Robinson has a different level of mobility and athleticism. His offensive game isn't super polished or refined, but it shows potential.

Nance and Robinson... really? Not happening.

[shrink]

Hypothetically, if we selected Wiseman, why would you put him on the perimeter with KAT in the lane even though Karl is the better proven 3-point shooter at this point? I’m not saying you guys are wrong...just curious about your thought process on this.

I am saying defensively, KAT will stay down low, and Wiseman would be forced to guard out to the perimeter. It could be ugly either way.

Offensively, you are right, KAT will stay up top and run a lot of pick and roll with Russell, regardless of who they draft. But they can use KAT all over the court.

If I have this wrong, all you guys who are better at the X’s and O’s are free to chime in and correct me.

[KGdaBom]

Go find footage of him to see for yourself. Personally, I believe he'd be better-suited for the PF position in Minnesota than Wiseman or Nance or Dieng. Ultimately, he might play more C than PF here, but the need for a defensive C is still here if that's what they want to add to the rotation.

Robinson is elite defensively if he can stay out of foul trouble. I'm not going to argue him being a better overall player than Nance or not. However, does he have all the skills you were requiring Nance to have before saying you'd turn down Nance for the #17 pick?

Nance to me profiles like Taj Gibson. And we have intel from Saunders' interim season that he felt Gibson was better at C than PF.

Robinson has a different level of mobility and athleticism. His offensive game isn't super polished or refined, but it shows potential.

Other than being male basketball players Nance has about NOTHING in common with Taj. Nance has a quite polished offensive game in just about every facet of offense while also being a pretty good defensive player inside and out. Robinson's offensive game is very limited showing far less potential or otherwise than Nance.

[shangrila]

The New York Knicks call and say “#1 for #8 and 2021 Unprotected First”. Do we say yes or no?

Unprotected 2021 from the only franchise in the league run worse than the Wolves? Immediate YES!


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I think the best Knicks deal is...

#8 + Randle + Knox + 2021 or 2022 (unprotected Wolves option) + 2021 Dallas (unprotected)

FOR

#1 + Johnson + Spellman

The question becomes, can Wolves get the other Dallas 1st owed?

I'm resigning myself to the reality that this pick just doesn't have that type of value. Not even the Knicks are going to want to give up a pick next year to move up in this one. So while I don't hate your deal, even though I'm not a fan of Randle, I just can't see it happening.

At this point I'd probably accept a deal around all the other Knicks' picks. If they offered me #8, #27, both Dallas 1sts and the two '21 2nds they have from Detroit and Charlotte...I'd take that. It might seem like splitting a dollar into pennies but whatever. That much draft capital would be nice.

[Slim Tubby]

Unprotected 2021 from the only franchise in the league run worse than the Wolves? Immediate YES!


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I think the best Knicks deal is...

#8 + Randle + Knox + 2021 or 2022 (unprotected Wolves option) + 2021 Dallas (unprotected)

FOR

#1 + Johnson + Spellman

The question becomes, can Wolves get the other Dallas 1st owed?

I'm resigning myself to the reality that this pick just doesn't have that type of value. Not even the Knicks are going to want to give up a pick next year to move up in this one. So while I don't hate your deal, even though I'm not a fan of Randle, I just can't see it happening.

At this point I'd probably accept a deal around all the other Knicks' picks. If they offered me #8, #27, both Dallas 1sts and the two '21 2nds they have from Detroit and Charlotte...I'd take that. It might seem like splitting a dollar into pennies but whatever. That much draft capital would be nice.

Personally, I’d much rather have your proposed deal than staying at #1 and drafting Edwards or Ball. If we’re not taking the guy with the highest floor in the draft in Wiseman then I hope we do trade back for additional assets.


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[Wolveswin]

Unprotected 2021 from the only franchise in the league run worse than the Wolves? Immediate YES!


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I think the best Knicks deal is...

#8 + Randle + Knox + 2021 or 2022 (unprotected Wolves option) + 2021 Dallas (unprotected)

FOR

#1 + Johnson + Spellman

The question becomes, can Wolves get the other Dallas 1st owed?

I'm resigning myself to the reality that this pick just doesn't have that type of value. Not even the Knicks are going to want to give up a pick next year to move up in this one. So while I don't hate your deal, even though I'm not a fan of Randle, I just can't see it happening.

At this point I'd probably accept a deal around all the other Knicks' picks. If they offered me #8, #27, both Dallas 1sts and the two '21 2nds they have from Detroit and Charlotte...I'd take that. It might seem like splitting a dollar into pennies but whatever. That much draft capital would be nice.

Moving 8 to 1 is a huge jump in any draft. Typically teams are top 5 (top 3 really) looking for more of a swap to #1. And that takes at least 1 Future 1st. Not sure how Knicks don’t add two future 1sts for that fact and moving Randle as some sweetener.

[shangrila]

I think the best Knicks deal is...

#8 + Randle + Knox + 2021 or 2022 (unprotected Wolves option) + 2021 Dallas (unprotected)

FOR

#1 + Johnson + Spellman

The question becomes, can Wolves get the other Dallas 1st owed?

I'm resigning myself to the reality that this pick just doesn't have that type of value. Not even the Knicks are going to want to give up a pick next year to move up in this one. So while I don't hate your deal, even though I'm not a fan of Randle, I just can't see it happening.

At this point I'd probably accept a deal around all the other Knicks' picks. If they offered me #8, #27, both Dallas 1sts and the two '21 2nds they have from Detroit and Charlotte...I'd take that. It might seem like splitting a dollar into pennies but whatever. That much draft capital would be nice.

Moving 8 to 1 is a huge jump in any draft. Typically teams are top 5 (top 3 really) looking for more of a swap to #1. And that takes at least 1 Future 1st. Not sure how Knicks don’t add two future 1sts for that fact and moving Randle as some sweetener.

...did you not read my post?

[minimus]

Unprotected 2021 from the only franchise in the league run worse than the Wolves? Immediate YES!

I think the best Knicks deal is...

#8 + Randle + Knox + 2021 or 2022 (unprotected Wolves option) + 2021 Dallas (unprotected)
FOR
#1 + Johnson + Spellman

The question becomes, can Wolves get the other Dallas 1st owed?

I am not sure I have seen a team trade a pick with the option to defer, but I know of no rule against it. It would have made the Stepian Rule tougher for NYK’s front office, but they have unprotected DAL picks to avoid it. This option would potentially give MIN two chances to get a top 4 lottery pick, so I estimate that it increases the value of their pick by 50%. I think that would make it too rich for the Knicks.

I love this out of the box thinking!

Slightly different scenario:
#1, Culver, Nowell, Spellman, Evans for #8 + 2021 Dallas (unprotected)+ 2022 NYK (unprotected)

Why for MIN: trade for two lottery future picks
Why for NYK: get Ball, speed up the development process by filling the roster with Culver, Nowell, Spellman

Then
#8, JJ for Caris LeVert
Why for MIN: trade for starting SF who can hit threes, slash and handle the ball
Why for BRO: they can aggregate #8, Dinwiddie, Allen, Prince and try to get third star.

Draft Tillman(#17), Grant Riller(#33). Re-sign Beasley, JMac, Juancho, Martin.

KAT/Reid/Tillman
Tillman/Juancho/Vanderbilt
LeVert/Layman/Martin
Beasley/Okogie/Riller
DLo/JMac/LeVert

Tillman will add defense, passing and finishing at rim. KAT-LeVert-Beasley-DLo is an elite shooting unit. LeVert is a dynamic slasher and ballhandler which might fit well next to DLo.

[Neeva]

I think Lavert’s trade value is more like the mid to late teens.

[minimus]

I think Lavert’s trade value is more like the mid to late teens.

Yes, he is not a legit star yet. But he has been productive averaging 19ppg, 4apg, 4rpg, 42% FG, 36% from 3PT. In this playoff he averaged 20ppg, 6rpg, 9.5apg, 37%(???) FG, 42%(!!!) from 3PT as BRO leader.

I think he would be a perfect 3rd, 4th player to compliment KAT/DLo/Beasley. He is young, still developing, athletic wing. Maybe Prigioni can get the best from him.

Watch on YouTube

[KGdaBom]

I think Lavert’s trade value is more like the mid to late teens.

Yes, he is not a legit star yet. But he has been productive averaging 19ppg, 4apg, 4rpg, 42% FG, 36% from 3PT. In this playoff he averaged 20ppg, 6rpg, 9.5apg, 37%(???) FG, 42%(!!!) from 3PT as BRO leader.

I think he would be a perfect 3rd, 4th player to compliment KAT/DLo/Beasley. He is young, still developing, athletic wing. Maybe Prigioni can get the best from him.

Watch on YouTube

Caris is a very good basketball player. Neeva says he is worth a draft pick in the mid to late teens and that just goes to show how much people overrate draft picks and underrate LeVert. I'm not sure about his contract situation, but we have JJ to take care of most of that. If he has an expiring contract that becomes a concern.