Trade Talk (Part 14): 2023-24 Edition

[BlacJacMac]

Great post.

I just wanted to mention that I’ve given more thought to Gordon Hayward, and while he’d be a great pick up, I think he probably won’t want to be bought out. While a guy like Kyle Lowry is at the end of his career, Hayward is probably looking for one more decent contract. If he does a buy out, he loses his Bird rights for the summer. At that point he can only get a contract through cap space (which is limited to mostly bad teams), or he’s limited to the MLE. His better bet is to stay with CHA, get paid more than the MLE through his Bird rights, then get traded to a contender.

Projected 2024 Cap Space
1. DET: $50.3M
2. CHA: $45.5M (up from $21.7M)
3. ORL: $42.0M
4. PHI: $40.9M
5. UTA: $35.8M
6. TOR: $31.5M
7. SAS: $19.8M

I wonder if he'll get more than the MLE? He'll turn 34 during this season and hasn't been "healthy" since 2018. Games played since his major injury:

2017: 1
2018: 72 (18 starts, severe minutes restriction)
2019: 52
2020: 44
2021: 49
2022: 50
2023: 25 (has not played since 12/26 with a calf injury)

[cmoss84]

Would Detroit be willing to build a core around Cade, KAT, and Duren?

KAT and WMJ ($38M and change) for Ivey, Bojan, and Burks ($38M and change)?
I'm sure picks can be involved too---just not sure which ones...

Yuck

LOL why yuck? We get 3 good role players for our run this year, including 3pt shooting and PG insurance. We 'd have Bojan for next year as well. We save enough money to sign Conley and have him mentor Ivey for a year or two. We have our (potentially star) PG of the future (yes, I do believe Ivey can play the point next to ANT). Naz can slide into KAT's role. Add a couple protected picks for icing on the cake to recoup what we lost in Rudy trade. I love KAT and his is playing amazing. But this is ultimately a business with difficult decisions to be made.

[jpatrick]

Would Detroit be willing to build a core around Cade, KAT, and Duren?

KAT and WMJ ($38M and change) for Ivey, Bojan, and Burks ($38M and change)?
I'm sure picks can be involved too---just not sure which ones...

Yuck

LOL why yuck? We get 3 good role players for our run this year, including 3pt shooting and PG insurance. We 'd have Bojan for next year as well. We save enough money to sign Conley and have him mentor Ivey for a year or two. We have our (potentially star) PG of the future (yes, I do believe Ivey can play the point next to ANT). Naz can slide into KAT's role. Add a couple protected picks for icing on the cake to recoup what we lost in Rudy trade. I love KAT and his is playing amazing. But this is ultimately a business with difficult decisions to be made.

I think there is a good chance KAT is traded, this offseason makes sense if we don’t make a playoff run. But I think we need need to get back someone that can be a #2. That guy isn’t in the roster and with Rudy’s age, we don’t have time to try and draft/develop them. For example, if the deal is with Detroit, it’d have to be Cade coming back, giving Detroit a core of Duren, Ivey, KAT, Thompson. If they keep some of their vets (Bogdanovic, Burks, etc), that’s a playoff team next year with upside. I really like Duren’s future.

[wolves_89]

Great post.

I just wanted to mention that I’ve given more thought to Gordon Hayward, and while he’d be a great pick up, I think he probably won’t want to be bought out. While a guy like Kyle Lowry is at the end of his career, Hayward is probably looking for one more decent contract. If he does a buy out, he loses his Bird rights for the summer. At that point he can only get a contract through cap space (which is limited to mostly bad teams), or he’s limited to the MLE. His better bet is to stay with CHA, get paid more than the MLE through his Bird rights, then get traded to a contender.

Projected 2024 Cap Space
1. DET: $50.3M
2. CHA: $45.5M (up from $21.7M)
3. ORL: $42.0M
4. PHI: $40.9M
5. UTA: $35.8M
6. TOR: $31.5M
7. SAS: $19.8M

I think it will come down to how much Hayward values the chance at a playoff run with a contending team. There are financial and stability benefits from staying in Charlotte, but at his age there won't be many (or maybe any) more chances at a making a title run.

[KGdaBom]

Would Detroit be willing to build a core around Cade, KAT, and Duren?

KAT and WMJ ($38M and change) for Ivey, Bojan, and Burks ($38M and change)?
I'm sure picks can be involved too---just not sure which ones...

Yuck

LOL why yuck? We get 3 good role players for our run this year, including 3pt shooting and PG insurance. We 'd have Bojan for next year as well. We save enough money to sign Conley and have him mentor Ivey for a year or two. We have our (potentially star) PG of the future (yes, I do believe Ivey can play the point next to ANT). Naz can slide into KAT's role. Add a couple protected picks for icing on the cake to recoup what we lost in Rudy trade. I love KAT and his is playing amazing. But this is ultimately a business with difficult decisions to be made.

I bolded why yuck. You don't trade stars for not stars if you want to win.

[thinktank]

KAT trade ideas are a complete waste of time right now. 0% chance. Let’s agree to move on.

[Domejandro]

Not to be a hater, but I really don’t understand why it isn’t obvious that Minnesota will only trade Karl-Anthony Towns if it maintains or tangibly improves the chances that Minnesota will win a championship this season.

First seeds don’t break stars into a hodgepodge of assets.

[KGdaBom]

Not to be a hater, but I really don’t understand why it isn’t obvious that Minnesota will only trade Karl-Anthony Towns if it maintains or tangibly improves the chances that Minnesota will win a championship this season.

First seeds don’t break stars into a hodgepodge of assets.

Thank you.

[Klomp]

I'm going to make a bold claim right now: We trade for two 2023-24 rotation pieces at the trade deadline. Kyle Anderson is used to get one of them, while Leonard Miller helps us get the other.

[winforlose]

Not to be a hater, but I really don’t understand why it isn’t obvious that Minnesota will only trade Karl-Anthony Towns if it maintains or tangibly improves the chances that Minnesota will win a championship this season.

First seeds don’t break stars into a hodgepodge of assets.

Unless the hodgepodge includes lesser stars that fit the teams needs perfectly and make the team better overall.

[KGdaBom]

Not to be a hater, but I really don’t understand why it isn’t obvious that Minnesota will only trade Karl-Anthony Towns if it maintains or tangibly improves the chances that Minnesota will win a championship this season.

First seeds don’t break stars into a hodgepodge of assets.

Unless the hodgepodge includes lesser stars that fit the teams needs perfectly and make the team better overall.

Hodgepodge strongly implies that the assets aren't stars of any kind.

[winforlose]

Not to be a hater, but I really don’t understand why it isn’t obvious that Minnesota will only trade Karl-Anthony Towns if it maintains or tangibly improves the chances that Minnesota will win a championship this season.

First seeds don’t break stars into a hodgepodge of assets.

Unless the hodgepodge includes lesser stars that fit the teams needs perfectly and make the team better overall.

Hodgepodge strongly implies that the assets aren't stars of any kind.

I suggested this a while back. Karl, Kyle, and Wendell out for Murray, Jalen Johnson, and Okongwu. Murray is a star, JJ has star potential and Okongwu is a role player who fits well behind Rudy or next to Naz. The money makes sense, ATL gets by far the best player in the deal, and Kyle is far from value less on a team that struggles with defense. This is a 3 for 2 (Wendell is cap space,) some could call that a hodgepodge. But, that hodgepodge gives us the PG of the future, a rising star in JJ, and a solid role player, all in all I think that makes us better, even if we lose the best player in the deal.

[KGdaBom]

Unless the hodgepodge includes lesser stars that fit the teams needs perfectly and make the team better overall.

Hodgepodge strongly implies that the assets aren't stars of any kind.

I suggested this a while back. Karl, Kyle, and Wendell out for Murray, Jalen Johnson, and Okongwu. Murray is a star, JJ has star potential and Okongwu is a role player who fits well behind Rudy or next to Naz. The money makes sense, ATL gets by far the best player in the deal, and Kyle is far from value less on a team that struggles with defense. This is a 3 for 2 (Wendell is cap space,) some could call that a hodgepodge. But, that hodgepodge gives us the PG of the future, a rising star in JJ, and a solid role player, all in all I think that makes us better, even if we lose the best player in the deal.

Murray is a star so it isn't a hodgepodge. However, not good enough IMO. Now get us Murray and Markkanen like a lot of people are talking about and I would support that non hodgepodge deal.

[cmoss84]

Yuck

LOL why yuck? We get 3 good role players for our run this year, including 3pt shooting and PG insurance. We 'd have Bojan for next year as well. We save enough money to sign Conley and have him mentor Ivey for a year or two. We have our (potentially star) PG of the future (yes, I do believe Ivey can play the point next to ANT). Naz can slide into KAT's role. Add a couple protected picks for icing on the cake to recoup what we lost in Rudy trade. I love KAT and his is playing amazing. But this is ultimately a business with difficult decisions to be made.

I bolded why yuck. You don't trade stars for not stars if you want to win.

...and if you want to build a sustainable winning franchise, tough decisions will need to be made. I guess I value Ivey over most of you. I think he will be an multi-all star.
@KGdaBom: do you think THIS years team gets worse by making this trade? to you KAT > Ivey, Bojan, and Burkes?

[KGdaBom]

LOL why yuck? We get 3 good role players for our run this year, including 3pt shooting and PG insurance. We 'd have Bojan for next year as well. We save enough money to sign Conley and have him mentor Ivey for a year or two. We have our (potentially star) PG of the future (yes, I do believe Ivey can play the point next to ANT). Naz can slide into KAT's role. Add a couple protected picks for icing on the cake to recoup what we lost in Rudy trade. I love KAT and his is playing amazing. But this is ultimately a business with difficult decisions to be made.

I bolded why yuck. You don't trade stars for not stars if you want to win.

...and if you want to build a sustainable winning franchise, tough decisions will need to be made. I guess I value Ivey over most of you. I think he will be an multi-all star.
@KGdaBom: do you think THIS years team gets worse by making this trade? to you KAT > Ivey, Bojan, and Burkes?

We get far worse by making that trade. Not a little worse a huge amount worse.

[cmoss84]

I bolded why yuck. You don't trade stars for not stars if you want to win.

...and if you want to build a sustainable winning franchise, tough decisions will need to be made. I guess I value Ivey over most of you. I think he will be an multi-all star.
@KGdaBom: do you think THIS years team gets worse by making this trade? to you KAT > Ivey, Bojan, and Burkes?

We get far worse by making that trade. Not a little worse a huge amount worse.

We disagree on this...all good...

Bojan: 20/3/3 while shooting 41% on 7 3s/gm. Depth.
Burks: 13/2/2 while shooting 40% on 5 3s/gm. Depth.
Ivey: All-Star potential. PG of future. Can split minutes with Mike. 14/4/4. Can start learning from Mike NOW.
(NAZ starts in place of KAT)

[KGdaBom]

...and if you want to build a sustainable winning franchise, tough decisions will need to be made. I guess I value Ivey over most of you. I think he will be an multi-all star.
@KGdaBom: do you think THIS years team gets worse by making this trade? to you KAT > Ivey, Bojan, and Burkes?

We get far worse by making that trade. Not a little worse a huge amount worse.

We disagree on this...all good...

Bojan: 20/3/3 while shooting 41% on 7 3s/gm. Depth.
Burks: 13/2/2 while shooting 40% on 5 3s/gm. Depth.
Ivey: All-Star potential. PG of future. Can split minutes with Mike. 14/4/4. Can start learning from Mike NOW.
(NAZ starts in place of KAT)

Championships are won by stars. Almost never by a group of good players. The last team to win without a star was Detroit in 2004. We would have beat them if our star Sam Cassell hadn't got injured during the WCF.

[shrink]

Murray is a star so it isn't a hodgepodge. However, not good enough IMO.

Everyone draws their line at “star” differently. For me, it’s All NBA votes, which are limited to 15 winners, and a few other also-rans.

For his career, Dijounte Murray has received one, third place vote, two years ago. For points, Towns has a 385-to-1 lead, and has actually made All NBA twice.

Now, I’ll admit that Towns got some of those extra 384 votes by benefitting from being a center, and Towns or Gobert has been the third best center in the NBA. But where would you rank Dijounte Murray among guards? Is he even in the top 25? Being better than your opponent, night after night, is a big advantage for a team, and while Murray fits the Timberwolves, he is not better than most of the guards he faces.

Like I said, we all draw our “star” lines differently. I wouldn’t contradict your belief that Murray is a star. For me, he doesn’t rise to that level, particularly if we’re trying to put him in the same group as Towns. Sounds like you’d agree, since you would want Markkanen too.

[winforlose]

...and if you want to build a sustainable winning franchise, tough decisions will need to be made. I guess I value Ivey over most of you. I think he will be an multi-all star.
@KGdaBom: do you think THIS years team gets worse by making this trade? to you KAT > Ivey, Bojan, and Burkes?

We get far worse by making that trade. Not a little worse a huge amount worse.

We disagree on this...all good...

Bojan: 20/3/3 while shooting 41% on 7 3s/gm. Depth.
Burks: 13/2/2 while shooting 40% on 5 3s/gm. Depth.
Ivey: All-Star potential. PG of future. Can split minutes with Mike. 14/4/4. Can start learning from Mike NOW.
(NAZ starts in place of KAT)

Ivey isn’t ready, Burks is a less expensive Beasley, and Bojan is a role player with a limited skill set. You don’t even have a replacement for Naz in here. If Naz is the starter instead of the 6th man, who is the backup big who can sustain the defense when Naz or Rudy are in foul trouble? Plus Ivey isn’t necessarily a great fit with Ant. This is a sell low, and I don’t see think you are gonna find much support for it.

[KGdaBom]

Murray is a star so it isn't a hodgepodge. However, not good enough IMO.

Everyone draws their line at “star” differently. For me, it’s All NBA votes, which are limited to 15 winners, and a few other also-rans.

For his career, Dijounte Murray has received one, third place vote, two years ago. For points, Towns has a 385-to-1 lead, and has actually made All NBA twice.

Now, I’ll admit that Towns got some of those extra 384 votes by benefitting from being a center, and Towns or Gobert has been the third best center in the NBA. But where would you rank Dijounte Murray among guards? Is he even in the top 25? Being better than your opponent, night after night, is a big advantage for a team, and while Murray fits the Timberwolves, he is not better than most of the guards he faces.

Like I said, we all draw our “star” lines differently. I wouldn’t contradict your belief that Murray is a star. For me, he doesn’t rise to that level, particularly if we’re trying to put him in the same group as Towns. Sounds like you’d agree, since you would want Markkanen too.

I'm a big fan of Murray. He's not a STAR, but I think he's a star. He's definitely not on KAT's level, but what about him and Markkanen? Is that enough for you?