Trade Talk (Part 17): Early Offseason Planning

[Klomp]

Trade - any trade - more so trading Randle - is to better the roster. Better the chances at a chip and pushing through the WCF ceiling.

The difficult needle to thread is what I think Tim Connelly has done pretty well to this point - keeping the team good enough now, but also setting up the team for future growth and financial flexibility.

For a trade to go through, I have envisioned two different trade constructs that Connelly would be looking for in return for a package headlined by Julius Randle:
-Someone under team control for 3 or more years within $5-10 million of Randle's contract who has been or could be either a No. 2 option or fully buy into the team's defensive culture. This makes up most of my list above.
-A larger expiring contract (probably over $20 million) and a high-end prospect still on a rookie contract. This was where I was going with my Porzingis mention (though my initial idea was with Dyson Daniels, who would now be poison-pilled making that specific idea unlikely). Another idea could be Kentavious Caldwell-Pope with one or more of their young guys.

[Klomp]

Oh boy, we moved on from talking player production and into the realm of their preferred living scenarios. I think we may have jumped the shark.

Players who want to be on your team, in your city, increases their relative trade value to your team. It affects extension negotiations, team chemistry, and keeping them from leaving for nothing, and should be a factor in any trade valuation.

We get it. But when I bake a cake, I am more concerned about the quality of the flour and purity of the sugar. Concerning myself with the sprinkles on the cake before I have solved for the major ingredients does not make for a championship cake.

I would argue that Tim Connelly, Chris Finch, Anthony Edwards, Jaden McDaniels and Naz Reid are this franchise's flour and sugar.

[shrink]

Oh boy, we moved on from talking player production and into the realm of their preferred living scenarios. I think we may have jumped the shark.

Players who want to be on your team, in your city, increases their relative trade value to your team. It affects extension negotiations, team chemistry, and keeping them from leaving for nothing, and should be a factor in any trade valuation.

We get it. But when I bake a cake, I am more concerned about the quality of the flour and purity of the sugar. Concerning myself with the sprinkles on the cake before I have solved for the major ingredients does not make for a championship cake.

I think you are underestimating the importance here. Naz wanting to be here rather than explore free agency was a big deal. Jaden and Ant not asking for a fifth year player option mattered. Keeping players that want to be here, and are Ant’s buddies, matters.

I get that the Wolves aren’t used to players like this. In the past, we never attracted star free agents, and we often needed to add extra salary or extra years to even get rotation players. Providing a chance to win helps. But if we are going to give up a lot of trade assets to get a new player, it’s a bigger risk if he might leave for nothing because he has no attachment to Minnesota.

[Klomp]

Players who want to be on your team, in your city, increases their relative trade value to your team. It affects extension negotiations, team chemistry, and keeping them from leaving for nothing, and should be a factor in any trade valuation.

We get it. But when I bake a cake, I am more concerned about the quality of the flour and purity of the sugar. Concerning myself with the sprinkles on the cake before I have solved for the major ingredients does not make for a championship cake.

I think you are underestimating the importance here. Naz wanting to be here rather than explore free agency was a big deal. Jaden and Ant not asking for a fifth year player option mattered. Keeping players that want to be here, and are Ant’s buddies, matters.

I get that the Wolves aren’t used to players like this. In the past, we never attracted star free agents, and we often needed to add extra salary or extra years to even get rotation players. Providing a chance to win helps. But if we are going to give up a lot of trade assets to get a new player, it’s a bigger risk if he might leave for nothing because he has no attachment to Minnesota.

To be fair, I believe you spouted the same reasoning as why trading Towns for Randle was a mistake. As it turns out, Randle also wanted to be here.

Of course it's a risk. Any transaction is a risk.

[shrink]

We get it. But when I bake a cake, I am more concerned about the quality of the flour and purity of the sugar. Concerning myself with the sprinkles on the cake before I have solved for the major ingredients does not make for a championship cake.

I think you are underestimating the importance here. Naz wanting to be here rather than explore free agency was a big deal. Jaden and Ant not asking for a fifth year player option mattered. Keeping players that want to be here, and are Ant’s buddies, matters.

I get that the Wolves aren’t used to players like this. In the past, we never attracted star free agents, and we often needed to add extra salary or extra years to even get rotation players. Providing a chance to win helps. But if we are going to give up a lot of trade assets to get a new player, it’s a bigger risk if he might leave for nothing because he has no attachment to Minnesota.

To be fair, I believe you spouted the same reasoning as why trading Towns for Randle was a mistake. As it turns out, Randle also wanted to be here.

Of course it's a risk. Any transaction is a risk.

I still think that’s true. KAT may have been one of the best players that wanted to be here, and that has value specific to this franchise. I wasn’t aware of Randle’s love of Finch until the press conference.

I don’t think I ever said the trade was a mistake. I understood the reasoning for moving Towns’ supermax because of the second apron, and the belief that DDV would be a great contract (I still think he can be). I would still do that trade today, even after KAT’s great season in NYK.

[winforlose]

We get it. But when I bake a cake, I am more concerned about the quality of the flour and purity of the sugar. Concerning myself with the sprinkles on the cake before I have solved for the major ingredients does not make for a championship cake.

I think you are underestimating the importance here. Naz wanting to be here rather than explore free agency was a big deal. Jaden and Ant not asking for a fifth year player option mattered. Keeping players that want to be here, and are Ant’s buddies, matters.

I get that the Wolves aren’t used to players like this. In the past, we never attracted star free agents, and we often needed to add extra salary or extra years to even get rotation players. Providing a chance to win helps. But if we are going to give up a lot of trade assets to get a new player, it’s a bigger risk if he might leave for nothing because he has no attachment to Minnesota.

To be fair, I believe you spouted the same reasoning as why trading Towns for Randle was a mistake. As it turns out, Randle also wanted to be here.

Of course it's a risk. Any transaction is a risk.

Both Randle and DDV hated being traded here. Randle found he liked it and wanted to stay. DDV says he likes it here, but who knows? The issue of who wants to be here is important, but absent a crystal ball we cannot know. Maybe someone who wants to be here has a bad experience and demands out. Maybe someone who doesn’t want to be here likes it and wants to stay. This is like trying to time the market with stock prices from 3 days ago.

The bigger issue is roster balance. KAT was our backup C and we didn’t replace that role in last years trade. The result was a year of being undersized and off balance when Rudy sat. It hurt us in the playoffs and we responded by drafting two Cs. Trading our starting PF for a PG is fine, but only if we balance the roster. In the present proposal we have Naz and no one else who can properly play PF. Miller is unproven, Jaden is needed elsewhere, and no one else is big enough. Joan is nowhere near ready to play significant minutes at PF. He and Rudy would be non shooters with no handle. It would be a catastrophe. Suggs is also a defensive focused guard which does nothing to help Ant. This is the pickup you make when Suggs is on a rookie deal and looking like a bargain contract is in his future. Suggs for DDV if they cost the same thing might make sense, they don’t. Paying 35 million and losing our only trade bait to not solve the PG problem while also creating a small ball team with a PF problem is not gonna win us anything. We need someone like Coby White or DJM who have a track record of leading a team in scoring. DJM did not fair well after leaving SAS, he is also coming off an injury. Can he be used well enough and brought back to SAS form? Can White improve his defense, and function as a 2nd option? Outside of those 2 I have no good suggestions for a worthwhile PG 1 we can afford.

[minimus]

P.S. Beringer/McDaniels/Black/Clark/Suggs unit would absolutely destroy opponents.

We'd be destroying teams 12-8 for the quarter...

(Provided they didn't counter with size and beat the crap out of us)

I don’t care, I want to see it!

P.S. Is Black a PG? Can he be a new Lonzo Ball in terms of 3&D development and passing?

[Klomp]

Both Randle and DDV hated being traded here.

I don't think that's at all accurate for Randle, especially not after the reports that have come out this summer. Certainly caught off-guard by it, but pretty quickly he embraced the fresh start.

[winforlose]

Both Randle and DDV hated being traded here.

I don't think that's at all accurate for Randle, especially not after the reports that have come out this summer. Certainly caught off-guard by it, but pretty quickly he embraced the fresh start.

Randle embraced playing for Finch. But he was not happy about being traded. But for the sake of conversation let’s assume this is true. So what. The premise is still correct even if the example is bad. A player can say I want to play with Ant and the Wolves and then not like it. By the same token a player can say I don’t want to go to Minnesota and discover they do like it.

[Klomp]

P.S. Is Black a PG? Can he be a new Lonzo Ball in terms of 3&D development and passing?

This one is very interesting. Why? The Timberwolves met with Black at the 2023 NBA Draft Combine, despite only having the No. 53 pick at the time.

[Klomp]

Both Randle and DDV hated being traded here.

I don't think that's at all accurate for Randle, especially not after the reports that have come out this summer. Certainly caught off-guard by it, but pretty quickly he embraced the fresh start.

Randle embraced playing for Finch. But he was not happy about being traded. But for the sake of conversation let’s assume this is true. So what. The premise is still correct even if the example is bad. A player can say I want to play with Ant and the Wolves and then not like it. By the same token a player can say I don’t want to go to Minnesota and discover they do like it.

That was more about his disdain for being cast aside in New York than any dislike for the Minnesota market.

[BlacJacMac]

P.S. Beringer/McDaniels/Black/Clark/Suggs unit would absolutely destroy opponents.

We'd be destroying teams 12-8 for the quarter...

(Provided they didn't counter with size and beat the crap out of us)

I don’t care, I want to see it!

P.S. Is Black a PG? Can he be a new Lonzo Ball in terms of 3&D development and passing?

I think Black he has a chance defensively to be near Lonzo. But he hasn't shown any real ability to shoot and he's not anywhere near Lonzo as a passer.

He's interesting, but he's a well below average player to this point.

[BlacJacMac]

Both Randle and DDV hated being traded here.

I don't think that's at all accurate for Randle, especially not after the reports that have come out this summer. Certainly caught off-guard by it, but pretty quickly he embraced the fresh start.

Randle embraced playing for Finch. But he was not happy about being traded. But for the sake of conversation let’s assume this is true. So what. The premise is still correct even if the example is bad. A player can say I want to play with Ant and the Wolves and then not like it. By the same token a player can say I don’t want to go to Minnesota and discover they do like it.

I think "not happy" is a mischaracterization. It sounds like he was more shocked the trade happened than upset about it. And dude fell in love with Minnesota almost instantly.

https://www.nba.com/news/the-athletic-julius-randle-opens-up-on-knicks-wolves-trade-and-finding-happiness-in-minnesota

[Klomp]

I feel a decent likelihood that a trade will be made before the trade deadline. I'm at around a 40% chance. Maybe it won't be as big as a Randle trade....but I think it could be some level of consolidation for a guard.

I think a trade will involve at least one of Julius Randle, Donte DiVincenzo, or Rob Dillingham. I currently can't envision anyone else being dealt.

[KGdaBom]

I think you are underestimating the importance here. Naz wanting to be here rather than explore free agency was a big deal. Jaden and Ant not asking for a fifth year player option mattered. Keeping players that want to be here, and are Ant’s buddies, matters.

I get that the Wolves aren’t used to players like this. In the past, we never attracted star free agents, and we often needed to add extra salary or extra years to even get rotation players. Providing a chance to win helps. But if we are going to give up a lot of trade assets to get a new player, it’s a bigger risk if he might leave for nothing because he has no attachment to Minnesota.

To be fair, I believe you spouted the same reasoning as why trading Towns for Randle was a mistake. As it turns out, Randle also wanted to be here.

Of course it's a risk. Any transaction is a risk.

I still think that’s true. KAT may have been one of the best players that wanted to be here, and that has value specific to this franchise. I wasn’t aware of Randle’s love of Finch until the press conference.

I don’t think I ever said the trade was a mistake. I understood the reasoning for moving Towns’ supermax because of the second apron, and the belief that DDV would be a great contract (I still think he can be). I would still do that trade today, even after KAT’s great season in NYK.

Because of Le Berricade?

[KGdaBom]

I feel a decent likelihood that a trade will be made before the trade deadline. I'm at around a 40% chance. Maybe it won't be as big as a Randle trade....but I think it could be some level of consolidation for a guard.

I think a trade will involve at least one of Julius Randle, Donte DiVincenzo, or Rob Dillingham. I currently can't envision anyone else being dealt.

I would prefer trading none of those three.

[Klomp]

I would prefer trading none of those three.

I get that. I was speaking more to what I think will happen, not my personal preferences.

[Wolveswin]

To Pistons: Randle/DDV

To Bulls: Dilly/Tobias/_____ (from Pistons)

To Wolves: Giddey/White/Jalen Smith

The _____ from Pistons TBD. Would Pistons prefer Ivey, or Holland (probably Bulls ideal choice), Picks based package - what would Pistons be willing to spend to turn Tobias into Randle (and DDV)?

Wolves try out Giddey as PGOF next to Edwards with backup plan in tow…White. White looks better as SG - so coming off bench with Conley - while closing games with Edwards, when Giddey’s offensive struggles might limit him.

Jalen Smith is a placeholder big fighting with all the other Wolves bench youth for PT behind now starter Reid.

Note: Giddey isn’t my favorite choice. Maybe 4th or 5th on my list.

[Klomp]

To Pistons: Randle/DDV

To Bulls: Dilly/Tobias/_____ (from Pistons)

To Wolves: Giddey/White/Jalen Smith

The _____ from Pistons TBD. Would Pistons prefer Ivey, or Holland (probably Bulls ideal choice), Picks based package - what would Pistons be willing to spend to turn Tobias into Randle (and DDV)?

Wolves try out Giddey as PGOF next to Edwards with backup plan in tow…White. White looks better as SG - so coming off bench with Conley - while closing games with Edwards, when Giddey’s offensive struggles might limit him.

Jalen Smith is a placeholder big fighting with all the other Wolves bench youth for PT behind now starter Reid.

Those two definitely fit the Detroit culture.

How do people think DiVincenzo and LeVert stack up against each other? Similar? Thought about a simpler swap involving them.

[Loaf_of_bread]

Again half true. Naz is the natural starting PF, but playing Jaden at PF means he isn’t guarding a guard or SF. Having just lost NAW and having serious doubts about Clark’s offense this is not a good long term solution. Unless you want Leonard Miller stepping into the backup PF or have someone else in mind? Any trade involving Randle must return a competent backup PF as well as a starting PG. this is extra difficult when you factor in we cannot take back more money than we send out.

Not true. Reid can play PF and McDaniels SF. No reason why not.

Not true that one trade has to solve all problems. It can be a multiple step process.

Correct, but when Naz sits who plays PF? Also what happens if Naz or Rudy miss any length of time? You fail to address the depth question. Others have suggested Jaden play backup PF, and that is what I was talking about. Jaden is needed elsewhere, and we have no next man up.

Jaden is a very good rim protector. Would like to see him at pf more personally. Jaylen might even be better than jaden defensively against guards and most sf..

Jaden, jaylen, Rudy is a problem offensively.. and we have no backup c. at the end of the day though, our roster construction sucks. So much incohesive talent when it comes to playoff basketball. Possible we do well in the RS, but time to hunt for a championship.

We make a trade to make a more balanced lineup, and Finch has no clue what he's doing..

Fanbase thinks he needs a full year to figure out how to play bb with a one to 1.5 player roster change.