Trade Talk (Part Six)

[TRik]

The only team LaVine is coming off the bench for is the All-Star team.

Except no, that isn't quite true. I mean it's a good quip and all.....but in reality the teams that do want to compete in the playoffs actually really care about this thing called defense, which, up to this point in Lavine's career, he hasn't been good at and hasn't shown a willingness to improve.

The dude has offensive talent, but so does Lou Williams. Zach, like Lou, can (well maybe a couple years ago for Lou) be a valued guy on a contending team....but by coming off the bench.

[Jedzz]

The only team LaVine is coming off the bench for is the All-Star team.

Except no, that isn't quite true. I mean it's a good quip and all.....but in reality the teams that do want to compete in the playoffs actually really care about this thing called defense, which, up to this point in Lavine's career, he hasn't been good at and hasn't shown a willingness to improve.

The dude has offensive talent, but so does Lou Williams. Zach, like Lou, can (well maybe a couple years ago for Lou) be a valued guy on a contending team....but by coming off the bench.

In all Lou's years of play he's only once gotten to 22ppg and twice avg at least 20ppg. Small difference in what LaVine is showing capable of.

I have a feeling you had this conversation back in the days of Wiggins/LaVine in MN and have held on to it. Many claimed he was sixth man back then too. People just don't correct themselves enough.

[TRik]

The only team LaVine is coming off the bench for is the All-Star team.

Except no, that isn't quite true. I mean it's a good quip and all.....but in reality the teams that do want to compete in the playoffs actually really care about this thing called defense, which, up to this point in Lavine's career, he hasn't been good at and hasn't shown a willingness to improve.

The dude has offensive talent, but so does Lou Williams. Zach, like Lou, can (well maybe a couple years ago for Lou) be a valued guy on a contending team....but by coming off the bench.

In all Lou's years of play he's only once gotten to 22ppg and twice avg at least 20ppg. Small difference in what LaVine is showing capable of.

I have a feeling you had this conversation back in the days of Wiggins/LaVine in MN and have held on to it. Many claimed he was sixth man back then too. People just don't correct themselves enough.

You got them spidey senses do you. lol. Tell you what, I'll happily eat crow if Lavine is ever one of the best players (starting, not coming off the bench) on a championship contending team. Until then, all he's really shown is that he can chuck on mediocre teams while not making his teammates better. Guess what, Jamal Crawford did that also before realizing his talents were better suited to be a sixth man on good teams.

[Jedzz]

Lavine is getting overated, do people
Realize he does not play any defense still..:

The Timberwolves have 10+ players or nore that are bad defenders. Hairs on my back stand up every time I read ithis stuff.

Maybe you like having 95% of your team that shoots 30% or below 8 games out of every 10 but everyone else is probably tired of it. Having a few elite scorers can let you have a bunch of bum scorers like this team loves to do.

Maybe one day when the team stops drafting hype and projection and starts drafting real two way studs. Have you seen one drafted in the past 20 years? I haven't. They aren't signing Kawhi anytime soon. Only one they are getting in a trade is someone with one foot in retirement.

[Klomp]

Except no, that isn't quite true. I mean it's a good quip and all.....but in reality the teams that do want to compete in the playoffs actually really care about this thing called defense, which, up to this point in Lavine's career, he hasn't been good at and hasn't shown a willingness to improve.

The dude has offensive talent, but so does Lou Williams. Zach, like Lou, can (well maybe a couple years ago for Lou) be a valued guy on a contending team....but by coming off the bench.

In all Lou's years of play he's only once gotten to 22ppg and twice avg at least 20ppg. Small difference in what LaVine is showing capable of.

I have a feeling you had this conversation back in the days of Wiggins/LaVine in MN and have held on to it. Many claimed he was sixth man back then too. People just don't correct themselves enough.

You got them spidey senses do you. lol. Tell you what, I'll happily eat crow if Lavine is ever one of the best players (starting, not coming off the bench) on a championship contending team. Until then, all he's really shown is that he can chuck on mediocre teams while not making his teammates better. Guess what, Jamal Crawford did that also before realizing his talents were better suited to be a sixth man on good teams.

I think this has more to do with what people expect from each position group. Fact is there is no one way to build a championship team. Just because Manu didn't start in San Antonio doesn't mean his play type can't start on a title contender. Just because LaVine and Beasley aren't Jordan or Bryant doesn't mean they can't start on a championship team. Luc Longley started for a championship team. JaVale McGee started for a championship team. I guess the Timberwolves should trade Towns and Reid to build around Ed Davis at center because that's all a championship team needs.

[TRik]

In all Lou's years of play he's only once gotten to 22ppg and twice avg at least 20ppg. Small difference in what LaVine is showing capable of.

I have a feeling you had this conversation back in the days of Wiggins/LaVine in MN and have held on to it. Many claimed he was sixth man back then too. People just don't correct themselves enough.

You got them spidey senses do you. lol. Tell you what, I'll happily eat crow if Lavine is ever one of the best players (starting, not coming off the bench) on a championship contending team. Until then, all he's really shown is that he can chuck on mediocre teams while not making his teammates better. Guess what, Jamal Crawford did that also before realizing his talents were better suited to be a sixth man on good teams.

I think this has more to do with what people expect from each position group. Fact is there is no one way to build a championship team. Just because Manu didn't start in San Antonio doesn't mean his play type can't start on a title contender. Just because LaVine and Beasley aren't Jordan or Bryant doesn't mean they can't start on a championship team. Luc Longley started for a championship team. JaVale McGee started for a championship team. I guess the Timberwolves should trade Towns and Reid to build around Ed Davis at center because that's all a championship team needs.

I hear you. Very reasonably stated.

I just don't think Lavine's game, as currently constructed, would mesh well with what is usually needed to start on a team vying for a championship. As I said, I would totally be cool with being proven wrong. I would also love to see him light it up coming off the bench for the Nuggets or some other similar team.

Watching the Bulls games, he sure can put up numbers. But lordly he could really be passing more as well to help make his teammates better. I won't mention the defense again. lol

[Klomp]

You got them spidey senses do you. lol. Tell you what, I'll happily eat crow if Lavine is ever one of the best players (starting, not coming off the bench) on a championship contending team. Until then, all he's really shown is that he can chuck on mediocre teams while not making his teammates better. Guess what, Jamal Crawford did that also before realizing his talents were better suited to be a sixth man on good teams.

I think this has more to do with what people expect from each position group. Fact is there is no one way to build a championship team. Just because Manu didn't start in San Antonio doesn't mean his play type can't start on a title contender. Just because LaVine and Beasley aren't Jordan or Bryant doesn't mean they can't start on a championship team. Luc Longley started for a championship team. JaVale McGee started for a championship team. I guess the Timberwolves should trade Towns and Reid to build around Ed Davis at center because that's all a championship team needs.

I hear you. Very reasonably stated.

I just don't think Lavine's game, as currently constructed, would mesh well with what is usually needed to start on a team vying for a championship. As I said, I would totally be cool with being proven wrong. I would also love to see him light it up coming off the bench for the Nuggets or some other similar team.

Watching the Bulls games, he sure can put up numbers. But lordly he could really be passing more as well to help make his teammates better. I won't mention the defense again. lol

That's why I think it's important to note the fact most people have preconceived notions about roles and player types. But just based purely on talent, LaVine certainly has what it takes. What you're talking about has more to do with player roles. Most sixth men nowadays are scoring guards, so people automatically want to put the scoring guards in a sixth man role when constructing their own championship roster.

[TRik]

I think this has more to do with what people expect from each position group. Fact is there is no one way to build a championship team. Just because Manu didn't start in San Antonio doesn't mean his play type can't start on a title contender. Just because LaVine and Beasley aren't Jordan or Bryant doesn't mean they can't start on a championship team. Luc Longley started for a championship team. JaVale McGee started for a championship team. I guess the Timberwolves should trade Towns and Reid to build around Ed Davis at center because that's all a championship team needs.

I hear you. Very reasonably stated.

I just don't think Lavine's game, as currently constructed, would mesh well with what is usually needed to start on a team vying for a championship. As I said, I would totally be cool with being proven wrong. I would also love to see him light it up coming off the bench for the Nuggets or some other similar team.

Watching the Bulls games, he sure can put up numbers. But lordly he could really be passing more as well to help make his teammates better. I won't mention the defense again. lol

That's why I think it's important to note the fact most people have preconceived notions about roles and player types. But just based purely on talent, LaVine certainly has what it takes. What you're talking about has more to do with player roles. Most sixth men nowadays are scoring guards, so people automatically want to put the scoring guards in a sixth man role when constructing their own championship roster.

Fair. I said I wouldn't mention defense, however, when you say he has the talent I think a fair caveat would be to mention that his defensive talent could be improved. Just saying.

[Jedzz]

I think this has more to do with what people expect from each position group. Fact is there is no one way to build a championship team. Just because Manu didn't start in San Antonio doesn't mean his play type can't start on a title contender. Just because LaVine and Beasley aren't Jordan or Bryant doesn't mean they can't start on a championship team. Luc Longley started for a championship team. JaVale McGee started for a championship team. I guess the Timberwolves should trade Towns and Reid to build around Ed Davis at center because that's all a championship team needs.

I hear you. Very reasonably stated.

I just don't think Lavine's game, as currently constructed, would mesh well with what is usually needed to start on a team vying for a championship. As I said, I would totally be cool with being proven wrong. I would also love to see him light it up coming off the bench for the Nuggets or some other similar team.

Watching the Bulls games, he sure can put up numbers. But lordly he could really be passing more as well to help make his teammates better. I won't mention the defense again. lol

That's why I think it's important to note the fact most people have preconceived notions about roles and player types. But just based purely on talent, LaVine certainly has what it takes. What you're talking about has more to do with player roles. Most sixth men nowadays are scoring guards, so people automatically want to put the scoring guards in a sixth man role when constructing their own championship roster.

I think it's fair to say Trik isn't going to hear out what anyone says about this. Preconcieved notions was a good way to put it Klomp as I think many should rethink their thoughts on LaVine and see him reaching scoring numbers compared to other true starting scorers of this league. The good ones. It seems to me there are only a rare few true two way studs and people seem to forget it's a team game. A lot of scoring players' defensive numbers over the years have benefit from being on better defensive teams around them and or stacked teams around them. Plenty of champion teams had pure offensive players, but I'm watching a still improving player in LaVine every season yet.

Klomp, your other good thought was champion teams being pieced together in many ways. We can look no futher than last year with Lakers and seeing starting -> 5 players starting outside Lebron/AD that would never be approved by people here and are all worse than LaVine.
MacGee - enough said
Danny Green (42/37/69, 3rpg, 1.3apg for Lakers) 68 starts
Avery Bradley (44/36/83, 2rpg, 1.3apg for Lakers) 44 starts
Kentavious Pope (47/39/78, 2rpg, 1.6apg for Lakers) 26 starts
Kyle Kuzma (44/32/74, 5rpg, 1.3apg for Lakers) 9 starts

But their argument will then be that LaVine can't be a #1 or #2 guy. I disagree there as well. He can be one of the two or three star players on a built team, his scoring numbers prove it. And if players like Beal can be desirable starters, then so can LaVine. I'll circle back to the Beal comparison.

TRik is using faulty player examples like Luo Williams and Jamal Crawford who don't even belong in this conversation with LaVine now at all. Neither has reached the scoring level and efficiency LaVine has.

Trik described LaVine as "chucking"!
LaVine shoots no more than say Lebron James does now as a annual winner, using Lebron as the pinnacle player of this generation to gauge here and James has never shot as efficiently as LaVine does now. Is Lebron James a chucker? Lebron needed over 22-23 shots/g to reach his two seasons of 30ppg. LaVine hasn't ever had a season yet over 20 shots/g. LaVine at 19.6 shots/g right now with 28.5ppg. 52/44/85 isn't chucking. LaVine is currently having the 121st best scoring season of the NBA ever and to put that into perspective that 121 seasons includes 5 seasons from Wilt, 9 from Jordan, 6 from West, many multiples from past greats, Harden has 5, Kobe 4, Lebron 3, Curry 2, Beal 2 now with this season, Giannis has 1 season in that range. Luka already 2 now with this season but he's chucking compared to LaVine! Luka's best so far is 47/34/80 on 21shots/g. Trae Young has 1 season in that range now and he's chucking in comparison at 44/36/86 for 29ppg on 21 shots/g. Kawhi Leonard's best scoring season ranked him at 200th best scoring season at 27ppg of 47/38/89 on 20shots/g, 7 rpg, 5apg. LaVine is near to eclipsing Kawhi's best right now as we speak.

TRik claimed low passing , but just like almost every stat of his, it's climbing every year. He's at 5apg and 5rpg this season. He's only had 3.5 seasons of starting games so far. This guy's situation is more unique. But let's compare him to Bradley Beal for one example since everyone is so high on him these days.


It took until Beal's 7th season to reach 25 ppg.

B. Beal yr 7: 25.5ppg, 19.7 shots/g. 5rpg, 5apg on 48/35/80 efficiency with a TS% of .581, 37mpg
LaVine yr 7: 28.5ppg, 19.6 shot/g, 5rpg, 5apg on 52/44/85 efficiency with a TS% of .649, 36mpg

LaVine only has 380 games to his career now into 7th season. 293 starts so far.
Beal had 408 games in through 6 seasons. 372 starts through 6 seasons. 535 starts to date.

Beal, yr9, after 535 starts is 47/34/90 this yr, shooting 24 shots/g, 5rpg, 5apg, 32ppg in 35 mpg.
Shouldn't Beal be passing more, have more efficiency etc in order to be considered a starter in this league according to TRik?

LaVine 11,800 minutes played
Beal 13,751 minutes played before 7th season started. 19,678 minutes played to date
So Imagine what LaVine will be capable of in seasons 8.9 like Beal has.

Tell me LaVine isn't capable of the exact same or better since he's showing efficiency Beal hasn't yet. People just need to adjust their early career preconcieved notions of these players. We had a very similar discussions on Beasley with disbelievers in him as a starter. Many still refuse to see what these players are really doing. Beasley is a few years behind these guys with his own climbing trajectory.

LaVine has to carry this years numbers through to the end of the season for sure, but that's the level he's showing is possible with the same or less amount of shots as any of these other starters around the league.

I rest my case on this topic. Lavine is worth a trade offer if Bradley Beal is.

[winforlose]

So I just read an interesting article about Boston needing a veteran center and some extra help moving forward. They also have a 28.5 million trade exception. Rubio and Davis to the Celtics could be a thing, the question is whether they would give us anything we want. It would also be ironic if Teague got displaced by Rubio this time around.

Anyone more familiar with Boston have any ideas on what we could ask in return?

[TheZachAttack]

So I just read an interesting article about Boston needing a veteran center and some extra help moving forward. They also have a 28.5 million trade exception. Rubio and Davis to the Celtics could be a thing, the question is whether they would give us anything we want. It would also be ironic if Teague got displaced by Rubio this time around.

Anyone more familiar with Boston have any ideas on what we could ask in return?

I mean I think it would be along the lines of being free in exchange for cap space for the Wolves. Maybe we could pick up a struggling Nesmith?

[winforlose]

So I just read an interesting article about Boston needing a veteran center and some extra help moving forward. They also have a 28.5 million trade exception. Rubio and Davis to the Celtics could be a thing, the question is whether they would give us anything we want. It would also be ironic if Teague got displaced by Rubio this time around.

Anyone more familiar with Boston have any ideas on what we could ask in return?

I mean I think it would be along the lines of being free in exchange for cap space for the Wolves. Maybe we could pick up a struggling Nesmith?

I disagree. I could see the wolves at least getting a 2nd but probably their first. Who else offers a semi starting PG for 2 years without demanding value back. Nesmith doesn’t really fit our needs given our existing logjam at wing with Ant, Beasley, Nowell, Culver, Okogie, and Layman.

[TheZachAttack]

So I just read an interesting article about Boston needing a veteran center and some extra help moving forward. They also have a 28.5 million trade exception. Rubio and Davis to the Celtics could be a thing, the question is whether they would give us anything we want. It would also be ironic if Teague got displaced by Rubio this time around.

Anyone more familiar with Boston have any ideas on what we could ask in return?

I mean I think it would be along the lines of being free in exchange for cap space for the Wolves. Maybe we could pick up a struggling Nesmith?

I disagree. I could see the wolves at least getting a 2nd but probably their first. Who else offers a semi starting PG for 2 years without demanding value back. Nesmith doesn’t really fit our needs given our existing logjam at wing with Ant, Beasley, Nowell, Culver, Okogie, and Layman.

Okay, sure... a 2nd round pick haha. Missing the forest for the trees. The point is that a team taking on 25m in cap space for bench players is worth arguably more than the value of the players they are getting in themselves. You're literally kidding yourself with any other narrative.

[Wolveswin]

So I just read an interesting article about Boston needing a veteran center and some extra help moving forward. They also have a 28.5 million trade exception. Rubio and Davis to the Celtics could be a thing, the question is whether they would give us anything we want. It would also be ironic if Teague got displaced by Rubio this time around.

Anyone more familiar with Boston have any ideas on what we could ask in return?

I mean I think it would be along the lines of being free in exchange for cap space for the Wolves. Maybe we could pick up a struggling Nesmith?

I would see if the struggling Celtics and warm-seat Ainge are desperate. And that doesn’t mean a meh trade of Rubio and Davis. Yes, I mean Towns.

Towns + Russell + Filler

FOR

Brown + Walker + Filler + DRAFT CAPITAL

Then of course see if Warriors prefer Brown vs. Towns (I think they would) and acquire Wiseman + 2021 Wolves 1st + DRAFT CAPITAL in return.

But this must be just me. The board here has spoken, this is blasphemy crazy talk I guess. Seems most here prefer keeping Towns and play the 40% or less game of chance with their owed 1st versus a guaranteed future of:

Suggs or Cunningham
Wiseman
Edwards
Culver
2022 Tank 1st (another top 5 1st)

Ladder future seems much brighter and seems like an actual plan — one in which Wolves control own destiny while not relying on chance (hope or prayers or wishes).

[winforlose]

I mean I think it would be along the lines of being free in exchange for cap space for the Wolves. Maybe we could pick up a struggling Nesmith?

I disagree. I could see the wolves at least getting a 2nd but probably their first. Who else offers a semi starting PG for 2 years without demanding value back. Nesmith doesn’t really fit our needs given our existing logjam at wing with Ant, Beasley, Nowell, Culver, Okogie, and Layman.

Okay, sure... a 2nd round pick haha. Missing the forest for the trees. The point is that a team taking on 25m in cap space for bench players is worth arguably more than the value of the players they are getting in themselves. You're literally kidding yourself with any other narrative.

Kemba is struggling with a knee issue. Teague has imploded. Prichard is playing fairly well but has knee issues of his own and is likely to run into the rookie wall. So the question is simple, what would you give to add a healthy vet backup who could play playoff level basketball. I think they give a first to potentially save their season. Especially if we throw in a Davis or Juancho to meet another of their needs.

[shrink]

... and warm-seat Ainge are desperate.

“Warm-seat!” I like it!

[Wolveswin]

My ultimate Wolves tear it down plan...

Trade 1: Grizzlies
Beasley FOR Winslow + 2024 Warriors 1st

Trade 2: Celtics and Warriors
Towns + Russell
FOR
Wiseman
Walker
2021 Wolves 1st (returned)
2021 Celtics 1st (top 8 protected)
2021 Warriors 1st (21-30 protected) OR 2021 Wolves 2nd
2022 Warriors 1st Swap (unprotected)
2023 Warriors 1st (unprotected)
2024 Warriors 1st Swap (works because Wolves own it from Beasley trade and “return” it for more legal draft capital coming from Warriors)
2025 Warriors 1st (unprotected)
2026 Warriors 1st Swap (unprotected)
2027 Warriors 1st (limited protections)

Wiseman | Reid
McDaniels | Vanderbilt | Hernangomez
Culver | Winslow | Layman
Edwards | Nowell | Okogie
Walker* | Rubio | McJordan
*Plenty of rest DNPs as Wolves try and heal his knee and value for future trade when his contract is less years.

2021 draft: Suggs or Cunningham
2021 draft: trade into lotto with 2021 Celtics 1st + 2021 Wolves 2nd + Youth (as needed) for forward of future to push McDaniels and/or Culver.

[Baseline81]

My ultimate Wolves tear it down plan...

Trade 1: Grizzlies
Beasley FOR Winslow + 2024 Warriors 1st

Trade 2: Celtics and Warriors
Towns + Russell
FOR
Wiseman
Walker
2021 Wolves 1st (returned)
2021 Celtics 1st (top 8 protected)
2021 Warriors 1st (21-30 protected) OR 2021 Wolves 2nd
2022 Warriors 1st Swap (unprotected)
2023 Warriors 1st (unprotected)
2024 Warriors 1st Swap (works because Wolves own it from Beasley trade and “return” it for more legal draft capital coming from Warriors)
2025 Warriors 1st (unprotected)
2026 Warriors 1st Swap (unprotected)
2027 Warriors 1st (limited protections)

Wiseman | Reid
McDaniels | Vanderbilt | Hernangomez
Culver | Winslow | Layman
Edwards | Nowell | Okogie
Walker* | Rubio | McJordan
*Plenty of rest DNPs as Wolves try and heal his knee and value for future trade when his contract is less years.

2021 draft: Suggs or Cunningham
2021 draft: trade into lotto with 2021 Celtics 1st + 2021 Wolves 2nd + Youth (as needed) for forward of future to push McDaniels and/or Culver.

Here you have the Warriors dealing unprotected picks in 2023 and 2025 when they already owe their 2024 to Memphis. Unless I am mistaken, that would be three in a row, which is not possible.

[shrink]

... and MIN isn’t trading Towns now.

[Wolveswin]

My ultimate Wolves tear it down plan...

Trade 1: Grizzlies
Beasley FOR Winslow + 2024 Warriors 1st

Trade 2: Celtics and Warriors
Towns + Russell
FOR
Wiseman
Walker
2021 Wolves 1st (returned)
2021 Celtics 1st (top 8 protected)
2021 Warriors 1st (21-30 protected) OR 2021 Wolves 2nd
2022 Warriors 1st Swap (unprotected)
2023 Warriors 1st (unprotected)
2024 Warriors 1st Swap (works because Wolves own it from Beasley trade and “return” it for more legal draft capital coming from Warriors)
2025 Warriors 1st (unprotected)
2026 Warriors 1st Swap (unprotected)
2027 Warriors 1st (limited protections)

Wiseman | Reid
McDaniels | Vanderbilt | Hernangomez
Culver | Winslow | Layman
Edwards | Nowell | Okogie
Walker* | Rubio | McJordan
*Plenty of rest DNPs as Wolves try and heal his knee and value for future trade when his contract is less years.

2021 draft: Suggs or Cunningham
2021 draft: trade into lotto with 2021 Celtics 1st + 2021 Wolves 2nd + Youth (as needed) for forward of future to push McDaniels and/or Culver.

Here you have the Warriors dealing unprotected picks in 2023 and 2025 when they already owe their 2024 to Memphis. Unless I am mistaken, that would be three in a row, which is not possible.

See trade 1 and where I referenced it in pick details.