Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition

[Klomp]

1. What do you believe Rob Dillingham’s ceiling will be? Likewise where do you expect his floor to be? You can answer for 2 years, 3 years, 5 years, or all of the above.

This is maybe the widest range of outcomes for anyone on the roster. Because there's almost nothing that would truly surprise me. I think one of the biggest things we need to determine though is how much infrastructure we need to build around him to maximize that talent. As a pure hooper, he has potential to be one of the best guards in the league. However, size concerns will likely limit that upside unless we build out the roster in a way to maximize him.

Because there is such a wide range of outcomes, I'm not unwilling to include him in the right deal.

2. Do you believe Naz Reid has 20/10 potential on efficient shooting when in his prime as a starting PF?

Probably. But maybe not.

3. Do you believe Leonard Miller will one day be a rotation worthy player for an NBA contender?

Unlikely.

4. Do you believe Jaylen Clark has enough consistent offense to be a top 8 rotation player for an NBA contender?

I think he has that potential, sure. But he'd probably be on the fringe on that Top 8 unless he can be a Bruce Bowen shutting opponents down and hitting your 3-pointers.

5. Do you believe Terrance Shannon has enough defensive potential and offensive tools to be a top 8 rotation player for an NBA contender?

I think it's possible.

6. What do you envision for the future of Jaden McDaniels?

I like his upside more as a PF than I do as a SF. Unless it was a team where your other star is a PG, then I think he could reach higher at SF.

[fattymcgee]

I will say it again: on paper aging KD at PF is an ideal fit next to Gobert. But also he is an ideal fit next to McDaniels. Also he is a good friend of Edwards. Also he could make much more enjoyable our offense without a true PG.

But. I would not trade neither Reid nor McDaniels to get KD.

This is where I'm at too.
If we can get KD with a package built around Randle, and NAW sign-n-trade, and some young players (not Dilly) and/or picks I would be happy to get Durant. KD has leverage with being an expiring this summer and refusing to sign an extension with teams he doesn't want to go to so that package could be enough for an aging KD.

[minimus]

As well as I remember in 2017 KD signed 25 mil per year contract instead of 35 mil, which allowed GSW to sign Iggy and Livingston, build quality bench and win championship. To me it speaks A LOT about him.

[guest81]

Randle, rob and detroit 1st for kd?

Suns could get way more

[minimus]

Randle, rob and detroit 1st for kd?

Suns could get way more

Like always injured, disgruntled Butler?

[Klomp]

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[Klomp]

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[Note30]

Ask the Suns how well it goes having a shallow and poorly constructed roster? Having talent is not enough, you need balance and depth. Take Jaden and DDV out for a month, does the team make the playoffs? Take Rudy and DDV out for a month does the team make the playoffs? Our current roster is only 6 games above .500 and it has depth to account for the injuries. The Suns are 2 games below .500 and they don’t.

We're already ****. Not sure what depth were really losing. Dilly Conley and Julius Randle for KD is the trade this looks like.

We can't trade NAW I assume he leaves in FA. If we could retain him that's one piece back. In which case were looking for a backup PG replacement. That's one player.

All of the things you mentioned could happen today and screw us

The original proposal included the first from Det. Losing two rookie scale contracts, not having the money to keep NAW, not having the money to do a taxpayer MLE, and being forced to sign a lot of undrafteds is more than just the guys you mentioned. KD is one player and an older expiring player at that. Dilly represents our 2031 1st and a 2030 top 1 protected pick swap. Giving that plus a mid teens Det 1st for a 37 year old expiring would be bad enough. Then you lose NAW and are forced to make downgrades all over the roster to boot. Finally, Randle and Mike are not worthless. Mike is a decent playoff depth PG even at 38, and Randle coming off the bench on a 22 or 23 million dollar deal is not the worst thing. We have plenty of talent and young guys to develop, what we need is patience and to balance the roster.

Yeah not a fan of giving up the DET pick. That being said we're **** until 2028.

Blame TC for this **** hole he put us in. Dilly was and is not worth that especially considering our pick was one of the more valuable ones that got flipped for Fox.

If you base every trade off of the value we pay we will never be able to trade Gobert.

Mike is a mid-tier backup PG, Randle is trash. If Dilly is what we have to pay to get Durant over those two Id do it in a heartbeat because Dilly is not worth what we paid for him, chalk that up to yet another mistake in TCs long line of mistakes.

I'd hope we can retain NAW and the DET pick.

[Note30]

Randle, rob and detroit 1st for kd?

Suns could get way more

So what? Who gives a ****. All trade values no longer mean anything after this past year.

[winforlose]

Not only that, but the Suns are a very badly constructed roster. Way too much offensive overlap, not nearly enough defense.

Replace Plumlee/Richards with Gobert. Replace Beal with Jaden. Replace Allen and O'Neale with Naz and DDV.

Put our guys around Durant and Booker and you have a much better team.

Now swap Booker for Ant because KD is on the Wolves and you have a very scary team. Even if its isn't very deep at the end of the bench.

I hear you. Before I respond I feel like these questions would aid our discussion.

1. What do you believe Rob Dillingham’s ceiling will be? Likewise where do you expect his floor to be? You can answer for 2 years, 3 years, 5 years, or all of the above.

2. Do you believe Naz Reid has 20/10 potential on efficient shooting when in his prime as a starting PF?

3. Do you believe Leonard Miller will one day be a rotation worthy player for an NBA contender?

4. Do you believe Jaylen Clark has enough consistent offense to be a top 8 rotation player for an NBA contender?

5. Do you believe Terrance Shannon has enough defensive potential and offensive tools to be a top 8 rotation player for an NBA contender?

6. What do you envision for the future of Jaden McDaniels?

1. Ceiling: Borderline All-Star, near neutral defender. Floor: Inefficient bench gunner. He could be Darius Garland. He could be Brandon Jennings. He could float around the league on "prove it" contracts after his rookie deal.

2. Yes.

3. I honestly have no idea. He clearly has talent, but there appears to be a key component missing. I get Anthony Randolph vibes from him.

4. Yes. I don't know if he'll ever be a 36% or better 3pt shooter, but his understanding of moving without the ball is very advanced for a "non-offensive" player. He's already showing smarter and more varied cutting ability than he ever did in college. He's also a crafty passer. I don't worry about his struggles finishing. I don't think he's completely over the mental aspect of the leg injury, so he tends to overprotect himself and not go up with full power at the rim.

5. Yes. I think he can be a more rounded Corey Maggette type player. People forget that he was his team defensive stopper at Texas Tech before reinventing himself as a high volume scorer at Illinois. He's a kid that will fit whatever role he's asked. And he seem much more committed and coachable than Minott and Miller.

6. I think he's a star in the making. I believe he has the talent to be part of a "Big 3" on a contender.

Let’s dig into this a bit.

You believe Dilly has an all star ceiling. You believe at worst he has a potential role on a good team, though you are not sold on it yet? Sound fair? Either way with a rookie with kind of upside it sounds like he is worth developing. If we keep DDV and start him at PG then all we need it a 3rd string PG next year. We have Mike under contract and it feels like he can at least be that 3rd string behind DDV and Dilly. Though I do want us to add another guard, even if that means DDV plays more backup 2 and less time at the one.

Between TSJ and Clark is sounds like you think we are good at backup 2/3. Would you favor keeping NAW if salary permits?

You are not sold on Miller, but given that he is two years in you have not given up hope, does that sound fair?

In light of your answers, I don’t see why you would want to trade for KD. If the alternative is developing Naz and Jaden as 2nd and 3rd options behind Ant as the top option and still having DDV’s firepower and Randle off the bench adding another high usage player at Naz’s position would interfere with both his and Jaden’s development. Moreover, since you believe in both Clark and Shannon, and see Dilly as worth developing you believe the team will naturally improve quite a bit in the next few years absent a splash trade. Having a mid first, a high second, and a tax payer MLE to balance the roster should both provide short term and long term improvement going forward? In light of being on a good path do you really want to rock the boat that much by dumping a potential future all star, a first in a deep draft, losing NAW who is still a top 7 rotation player (who plays well with Jaden and Clark,) all for a couple years of KD?

[winforlose]

1. What do you believe Rob Dillingham’s ceiling will be? Likewise where do you expect his floor to be? You can answer for 2 years, 3 years, 5 years, or all of the above.

This is maybe the widest range of outcomes for anyone on the roster. Because there's almost nothing that would truly surprise me. I think one of the biggest things we need to determine though is how much infrastructure we need to build around him to maximize that talent. As a pure hooper, he has potential to be one of the best guards in the league. However, size concerns will likely limit that upside unless we build out the roster in a way to maximize him.

Because there is such a wide range of outcomes, I'm not unwilling to include him in the right deal.

2. Do you believe Naz Reid has 20/10 potential on efficient shooting when in his prime as a starting PF?

Probably. But maybe not.

3. Do you believe Leonard Miller will one day be a rotation worthy player for an NBA contender?

Unlikely.

4. Do you believe Jaylen Clark has enough consistent offense to be a top 8 rotation player for an NBA contender?

I think he has that potential, sure. But he'd probably be on the fringe on that Top 8 unless he can be a Bruce Bowen shutting opponents down and hitting your 3-pointers.

5. Do you believe Terrance Shannon has enough defensive potential and offensive tools to be a top 8 rotation player for an NBA contender?

I think it's possible.

6. What do you envision for the future of Jaden McDaniels?

I like his upside more as a PF than I do as a SF. Unless it was a team where your other star is a PG, then I think he could reach higher at SF.

So using these answers I want to point out the following. Naz is a PF who can play SF, and in a pinch small ball C. Jaden is a SF who can also play PF, and in a pinch can play small ball C. KD is a PF, who can play SF, and in a pinch can play small ball C. Do you see how adding KD could step on both Naz and Jaden. That is before you factor in that Ant is a top offensive option, Naz wants to be, and Jaden getting more shots and more involved in the offense is key to his development. Whether that happens at SF or PF.

You talk about Clark being fringe and TSJ possibly being top 8, but that answer lacks confidence (fair?) So by removing Dilly, Mike, NAW, and Randle we would be promoting TSJ to a rotation spot you are unsure about, Clark to a spot you do not feel good about, and backfilling with players who are likely worse than what we have now. Putting aside the obvious issues, why is going even more top heavy on talent a priority at a time when OKC, Houston, Memphis, and others are finding success by playing more talented backups and lowering the strain on their key players? Did we not just burn out Ant in the Dallas series (and a little in the Denver series,) and lose the playoff chase last year with a similar issue? If you think TSJ, Clark, and Dilly have potential, why not give them another year to explore it?

Finally, as for the Ant improving by playing with KD argument, Ant played four years with KAT, three years with Rudy, 2.5 years with Mike, and has been to multiple international competitions now. He has played and worked beside excellent players. Does he really need another high usage high volume shooter beside him when he has DDV, Randle, Naz, and hopefully an increased usage Jaden?

[BlacJacMac]

You believe Dilly has an all star ceiling. You believe at worst he has a potential role on a good team, though you are not sold on it yet? Sound fair? Either way with a rookie with kind of upside it sounds like he is worth developing..

Not really at all what I said...

1. Ceiling: Borderline All-Star, near neutral defender. Floor: Inefficient bench gunner. He could be Darius Garland. He could be Brandon Jennings. He could float around the league on "prove it" contracts after his rookie deal.

You left off "borderline" in reference to All-Star. That's fine. Whatever.

But where does "Inefficient bench gunner." And "He could float around the league on "prove it" contracts after his rookie deal." automatically mean he has a role on a good team? Using my exact words he could be a guy who scores points for bad teams, but has no impact on winning (lots of those in the league) or even fighting to just try to stay in the League.

You added multiple levels to all my takes on Dilly and completely ignored the low end stuff.

I'm not a fan of trading for Durant, but depending on what we give up I can see the value - and I'm not bringing torches to TC's house like you seem to want to.

There are absolutely scenarios where a KD trade makes us much better for the next 2-3 seasons. Just like there are ones where we take a longer-term hit.

[BlacJacMac]

why is going even more top heavy on talent a priority at a time when OKC, Houston, Memphis, and others are finding success by playing more talented backups and lowering the strain on their key players?

And how has that translated to postseason success for those 3 teams?

You're putting the cart in front of the horse in order to make your point.

[winforlose]

You believe Dilly has an all star ceiling. You believe at worst he has a potential role on a good team, though you are not sold on it yet? Sound fair? Either way with a rookie with kind of upside it sounds like he is worth developing..

Not really at all what I said...

1. Ceiling: Borderline All-Star, near neutral defender. Floor: Inefficient bench gunner. He could be Darius Garland. He could be Brandon Jennings. He could float around the league on "prove it" contracts after his rookie deal.

You left off "borderline" in reference to All-Star. That's fine. Whatever.

But where does "Inefficient bench gunner." And "He could float around the league on "prove it" contracts after his rookie deal." automatically mean he has a role on a good team? Using my exact words he could be a guy who scores points for bad teams, but has no impact on winning (lots of those in the league) or even fighting to just try to stay in the League.

You added multiple levels to all my takes on Dilly and completely ignored the low end stuff.

I'm not a fan of trading for Durant, but depending on what we give up I can see the value - and I'm not bringing torches to TC's house like you seem to want to.

There are absolutely scenarios where a KD trade makes us much better for the next 2-3 seasons. Just like there are ones where we take a longer-term hit.

I apologize on the Dilly stuff. I was trying to pin it down a bit more. But I did not mean to misrepresent the spirit of your position. Thank you for clarifying. When I referred to the potential role (bench gunner,) I should have put more emphasis on inefficient, I apologize for that as well.

My overall point (forgive me my brain is still a bit scrambled from meds,) is that you like me seem to have a bit of optimism about the current slate of young wolves. Not just the rookies, but Jaden and Naz as well. I don’t see rushing to try and improve as the optimal path here, especially when KD would pose challenges to the development of both Jaden and Naz.

[winforlose]

why is going even more top heavy on talent a priority at a time when OKC, Houston, Memphis, and others are finding success by playing more talented backups and lowering the strain on their key players?

And how has that translated to postseason success for those 3 teams?

You're putting the cart in front of the horse in order to make your point.

I wasn’t even trying to address the post season. I was trying to make a point about the regular season. We have no clue how our current roster does in the post season either.

[BlacJacMac]

why is going even more top heavy on talent a priority at a time when OKC, Houston, Memphis, and others are finding success by playing more talented backups and lowering the strain on their key players?

And how has that translated to postseason success for those 3 teams?

You're putting the cart in front of the horse in order to make your point.

I wasn’t even trying to address the post season. I was trying to make a point about the regular season. We have no clue how our current roster does in the post season either.

No we don't. So we can't say one way is better than the other - yet.

[winforlose]

And how has that translated to postseason success for those 3 teams?

You're putting the cart in front of the horse in order to make your point.

I wasn’t even trying to address the post season. I was trying to make a point about the regular season. We have no clue how our current roster does in the post season either.

No we don't. So we can't say one way is better than the other - yet.

Somewhat agree and somewhat disagree. We don’t know how it shakes out in terms of results. But we know that the current records of all 3 teams are better than ours. We know that they have been able to weather key injuries fairly well, and we know that there elite players can afford less minutes per game. I just don’t think it is an all or nothing model with success and failure judged only by playoff progress.

[cmoss84]

Rudy and Randle. For KD and a center. 3 or 4 team trade.
Like I mentioned earlier, get your hands on a vet pg like Alvarado additionally. Boom.

[winforlose]

Rudy and Randle. For KD and a center. 3 or 4 team trade.
Like I mentioned earlier, get your hands on a vet pg like Alvarado additionally. Boom.

Downgrades the C and makes it hard if not impossible to keep Naz. Might need to dump DDV to make it work, and even then I am not sure. Better if you could move Mike into space or buy him out for dirt cheap and hire him as GM assistant for a large “signing bonus.”

[Loaf_of_bread]

We're already ****. Not sure what depth were really losing. Dilly Conley and Julius Randle for KD is the trade this looks like.

We can't trade NAW I assume he leaves in FA. If we could retain him that's one piece back. In which case were looking for a backup PG replacement. That's one player.

All of the things you mentioned could happen today and screw us

The original proposal included the first from Det. Losing two rookie scale contracts, not having the money to keep NAW, not having the money to do a taxpayer MLE, and being forced to sign a lot of undrafteds is more than just the guys you mentioned. KD is one player and an older expiring player at that. Dilly represents our 2031 1st and a 2030 top 1 protected pick swap. Giving that plus a mid teens Det 1st for a 37 year old expiring would be bad enough. Then you lose NAW and are forced to make downgrades all over the roster to boot. Finally, Randle and Mike are not worthless. Mike is a decent playoff depth PG even at 38, and Randle coming off the bench on a 22 or 23 million dollar deal is not the worst thing. We have plenty of talent and young guys to develop, what we need is patience and to balance the roster.

Yeah not a fan of giving up the DET pick. That being said we're **** until 2028.

Blame TC for this **** hole he put us in. Dilly was and is not worth that especially considering our pick was one of the more valuable ones that got flipped for Fox.

If you base every trade off of the value we pay we will never be able to trade Gobert.

Mike is a mid-tier backup PG, Randle is trash. If Dilly is what we have to pay to get Durant over those two Id do it in a heartbeat because Dilly is not worth what we paid for him, chalk that up to yet another mistake in TCs long line of mistakes.

I'd hope we can retain NAW and the DET pick.

Dilly not worth what we paid for him? We fleeced SA with that trade. It was the 8th pick, if FO believed in rob it's a robbery. 2031 could be our 20+ pick. Swap in 2030 could be 20+ as well. SA taking a chance the pick might be low, but 5 years in the future??

Also, NAW can go. Highly doubt he is with us next year.