Andrew Wiggins and the wolves future

[minimus]

I think there is still a decent chance that Wiggins can take a step forward and be an all-star level player. For me it all comes down to on-court effort on both ends of the court. On offense he needs to stop settling for long 2s and drive to basket more frequently. Defensively, he can't stand around and he has to utilize his athletic ability to be more disruptive (tipping balls, apply pressure on-ball, be more aggressive on help defense, ...).

I'd like to see Thibs reduce the length of each on-court stretch. Tell him to go all out for 4-6 minutes and then give him a break. I'd rather see 30-32 minutes of higher effort Wiggins than 36-38 minutes of what we've seen throughout his career.

Exactly, I think Wiggins has stamina issues as well but it does have this effect of low effort. Same thing with KAT. And I think it is not only about physical things, but also mental. I hope that this year they both are more mature, consistent without any distraction.

[vagelis]

Let's see how he will play without Butler and if he has worked hard enough in the summer

[Worm Guts]

Yeah, I don't think Wiggins was really ever statistically on schedule to be superstar. One of the reasons I wanted Butler is because if we wanted to keep Wiggins we needed someway to change his intensity level. The 2 ways I thought we could affect that were to surround him with players who have a high intensity level and to force him to play in higher intensity situations. That seems to have backfired. I've definitely reached the point where I think the better gamble would be to get rid of him and his contract.

We have all seen Cleveland and Toronto Wiggins, right?

What happens in those games? A good coach talks to Andrew and figures out a way to get that out of him more. Its not ability or skill, its focus and drive. But Wiggins doesnt appear to be a headcase or a problem which tells me you just need to figure out how to not FORCE him into trying to be that player, but make him want to for himself.

Going out there and bitching at him and telling him how soft he is will just make him curl up as weve seen. He needs a psychologist coach who support him and lead Wiggins to finding his motivation, not a taskmaster to scream "YOURE IN THE NBA NOW THIS IS A JOB!". Sorry if that hurts peoples feelings, omg he might not just react how I think he should because hes human! Sorry if you might have to cater to a persons individual personality to get the best out of them rather than just screaming "WHY CANT YOU WORK LIKE THE WINNER JIMMY?!?".

I just have a hard time believing that you can gain intensity from being coddled. Over the course of an 82 game season, you have to find your own motivation. It would be great if we had a coach who could bring out the best in Andrew on a nightly basis, I just don't know how likely that is. I've seen Wiggins with 4 head coaches now including at Kansas and he's always been the same guy.

[Foye]

KAT and Wiggins is our future. I think the only way to make it work is have a PG or offensive system that can feed, load both KAT and Wiggins in offense. We speak about defense as the biggest flaw, but I think if we can make both KAT and Wiggins happy in offense, it would be much easier to build adefensive identity.

If Wiggins improved his outside shooting, then Yes, Rubio would be about the perfect 4th guy. It would take another all around stud type who was more of a shooter than Rubio to balance it all out though. Like a Rubio/Wiggins/Porter/Defender/Towns lineup could be pretty damn dangerous, especially if you had a good stretch 4 to really spread it out if needed.

Rubio would have been a perfect fit either way.
Scoring was never our problem.

Rubio-Butler-Wiggins-Gibson-Kat would‘ve been a tremendous lineup both offensively and defensively!
We could‘ve addressed the lack of shooting by signing a couple shooters for the bench. I dont even think the shooting would‘ve been a concern, though. Just pound it inside every single freaking time. But Thibs was too stubborn to realize this.

We blew this big time...

[Rashodamus]

As to Wiggins, I bash him because he's been terrible and it's kind of funny how people often still can't see it. As to this "unprecedented regression", it's funny because I predicted most of it. I said to hold off on signing him because he'd have to adjust to being a third option, he's never shown the ability to do other things than score, and his PPG would decrease. I didn't expect the free throw shooting to drop but this is not something that has no precedent in the NBA. LeBron James shot .675 from the free throw line in 2017 even though he's a career .739 FT shooter. Tim Duncan was a career .700 FT shooter but he shot .599 his 7th season in his career. That's just a couple examples off the top of my head.

Wiggins has gained the ability to occasionally finish with a finger roll, and sometimes uses a floater now, that's about the extent of his improvements since coming into the NBA. He's not a smart player, and he has a low motor, that combination is typically a death knell for someone's potential to be a star, but we will see I suppose.

As far as all the KG vs KAT stuff, I feel bad you spent so much mental energy on that argument. I wasnt trying to make some hardcore comparison between the two, I was making a very generic statement about our franchise centerpiece and putting pieces around him. However you want to quantify KATs value, or KGs, or Sprewells, or Wiggins, is up to you and the debate mostly falls in how we weigh things. What I dont think is debated is we need to reach a certain level as a team in order to be a contender, and we agree Towns can be a/the primary part of that (I think we agree). To really generically put it in numerical terms (video game terms basically) if players are judged overall 1-100 KG was a 96 or something extremely high, KAT is a 90 or something extremely high but not as high but with potential to get up there. Again I dont care about how exact these numbers are, I dont want to argue KG is 98 and KATs an 88, thats not the point. The point is for a team to be a contender the entirety of the team has to add up to something. You arent a contender with a 95 and a bunch of 65's. Obviously theres the overall mix of skills, coach strategy, all sorts of other intangibles but those kind of go into the players "score". My argument is mostly that we can still achieve a contending "score" as a team with Wiggins as part of it.

If Thibs is gone before the season, I will bet you anything Wiggins has his best season this year. If Thibs remains im not sure what will happen, I expect him to bounce back from his very bad season last year regardless.

That being said I want you to understand I fully get where you are coming from. It is completely logical to expect his shots to go down, to expect him to struggle as a third wheel because his skillset simply isnt suited for it. I think most of us had hoped the additional space he might get and easier opportunities would lead to an increase in efficiency but the opposite happened, everything got worse. So again, I totally see what you see and understand how you are coming to your conclusion, I just disagree because I take a different approach to looking at it.

I look at 3 things, coaching, personality, and role.

Wiggins has been coached by Flip, Mitchell, and Thibs, 3 old school guys who love some mid range jumpers, so his natural reliance on it has been coddled rather than weened. A good coach would simply not allow that shot, and Wiggins doesnt come across as an insubordinate player. Unfortunately our coaches have been the type which didnt see the evil in it, especially for him. Its the shot which most destroys him, that if it were eliminated would transform him as an offensive player. Hes an elite finisher near the rim and is capable of being a high free throw rate guy. If it wasnt for his poor hands hed be among the elite cutter options in the league, but even with that issue hes still deadly with any space going at the rim. Put him in some easy PnR decisions with Towns, hes got a great first step and explosion, literally just tell him take one dribble and if you have the corner then attack, if you dont then kick it. Theres so many easy ways to utilize what he can do to make him a more valuable player.

Personality wise I believe Flip was much better suited for getting the most out of Andrew, and the Mitchell/Thibs type is the absolute worst. The problem I have is people want to knock him and tell him to man up and I think that is an idiotic way to view it. I want to get the most out of him, however it must be done, not just demand he give effort my way cuz I say. Thats why I never wanted Thibs, thats why I never bought the "Butler will motivate him" garbage. You cant force a guy like that to give a damn, you have to figure out what makes him give a damn and make him want it himself. I have seen the Cleveland/Toronto Wiggins, we both know hes not the same guy...my coach finds a way to get that guy every game. Thats something I think Flip might have gotten to eventually through a relationship where Wiggins trusted and gave a **** about him, and the teammates around him. I think there was also obviously some tension with Butler based on his brothers tweet, it seems like the kind of thing that could effect his game. Maybe thats him being weak minded, so what? Build an environment which has the opposite effect instead of whining about his imperfections. Theres real world things at play, its not all told by a box score.

As far as his role, thats where hes kind of a double edged blade. At the moment hes one of those guys who has a star mentality in terms of taking shots, but doesnt produce at star production for that use. But if you attempt to give him a lesser role his value is even more diminished as he gives you less of what he can do alright and more of what he does poorly. Understand in all of these things I understand your viewpoint completely, I dont deny his shortcomings. He has talent beyond his physical ability, its just pretty raw and we only see glimpses of glimpses of it. If he played 100% we would see glimpses all the time like the Cleveland/Toronto games. But his talents revolve almost exclusively around scoring, that doesnt have to be the end of the world as scoring is pretty damn important. He is content as the "#2" behind Towns here, and I think would even be content as a quasi 2A like he would have been with Lavine. I think he would even be fine with being the 3rd wheel if the guy came in naturally, like we drafted a dude and they got along well and he just turned out to be awesome. I think Wiggins would be fine in that case. So can we be successful with Wiggins as our 2A "star"? How he is now? No, of course not. But I dont just see the world how it is now because theres factors shaping how it is now, factors which can be changed. I believe with a coaching change and Butler gone the answer to that question changes immediately. What he and Towns ultimately can become determines was we need in pieces 3/4 both in terms of quality and style, but I think a real coach putting him in positions to succeed based on logic makes him good enough to be the somewhat empty scoring Sprewell of our group.

[Rashodamus]

I just have a hard time believing that you can gain intensity from being coddled. Over the course of an 82 game season, you have to find your own motivation. It would be great if we had a coach who could bring out the best in Andrew on a nightly basis, I just don't know how likely that is. I've seen Wiggins with 4 head coaches now including at Kansas and he's always been the same guy.

I have a hard time believing you can make people want something because you do, not because they do. That doesnt mean he cant be motivated it just means he has to find the reason for himself, a coach should help that. Mitchell and Thibs were failures in that regard, they are peg pushers, you fit through the hole or you are just a bad peg. Flip was more personable and relationship oriented, this is much more what Andrew needs. However Flip shared Thibs/Mitchells 90's long 2 disorder so saw no need to coach it out of Wiggins. We need to find a guy who understands why the long 2 is a bad shot, builds relationship and trust with his players, and is bright enough to creatively use his players in ways which maximizes their abilities and minimizes their shortcomings.

[Rashodamus]

If Wiggins improved his outside shooting, then Yes, Rubio would be about the perfect 4th guy. It would take another all around stud type who was more of a shooter than Rubio to balance it all out though. Like a Rubio/Wiggins/Porter/Defender/Towns lineup could be pretty damn dangerous, especially if you had a good stretch 4 to really spread it out if needed.

Rubio would have been a perfect fit either way.
Scoring was never our problem.

Rubio-Butler-Wiggins-Gibson-Kat would‘ve been a tremendous lineup both offensively and defensively!
We could‘ve addressed the lack of shooting by signing a couple shooters for the bench. I dont even think the shooting would‘ve been a concern, though. Just pound it inside every single freaking time. But Thibs was too stubborn to realize this.

We blew this big time...

I dont like the Butler/Gibson part of that, that team is still destined to fail as it doesnt line up with the top players windows. Rubio/Wiggins/Towns would be fine, those 3 pieces and you immediately know what you need to add around them. You need at least one knock down shooter and one big time defender, prob a 3 and a 4 if you want to push Wiggins to the 2. Markkenen could have potentially qualified as the shooter but would have made the defense a concern, as the 4 is likely our best chance to add an impact team defender next to Towns. Anyway, I would have liked having a lock down defender like Dunn off the bench to pick up 1/2's as well. There was talk about Memphis moving the #4 to move Parsons, we would have had space and assets without Teague/Butler/Gibson to make a move and grab a guy like JJJ who can possibly add defense and shooting at the 4. Then you make a consolidation trade to target a Richardson/Covington type 3.

Rubio/Wiggins/Covington/JJJ/Towns

Lavine would have looked good to a team like the sixers who had plenty of space and a bunch of bigs lined up but no guards. We would have kept our lotto pick rather than the Okogie pick we could have grabbed Bridges or something to take over for Covington. Its also likely a deal with Covington coming our way would include more on their end in the form of a pick(s).

Butler still walks in a year. If he doesnt thats even worse, cuz that means we pay him huge $$$ as he breaks down. Were dodging a bullet not paying his next contact.

[Worm Guts]

I just have a hard time believing that you can gain intensity from being coddled. Over the course of an 82 game season, you have to find your own motivation. It would be great if we had a coach who could bring out the best in Andrew on a nightly basis, I just don't know how likely that is. I've seen Wiggins with 4 head coaches now including at Kansas and he's always been the same guy.

I have a hard time believing you can make people want something because you do, not because they do. That doesnt mean he cant be motivated it just means he has to find the reason for himself, a coach should help that..

That's kind of the point though, if Wiggins isn't motivated on his own because he wants to become a great basketball player, there probably isn't a coach who can help him.

[Alwaysrightguy]

pretty sure glen knew he was skrewed before the ink dried on wiggz sig. I personally would have never done it. there are players who bust their tail and thrive for greatness and then there is wiggz. with KAT I see potential but wiggz the vision is blurry. anyway you slice it, my wolves are F%@!&*

[KGdaBom]

If Wiggins improved his outside shooting, then Yes, Rubio would be about the perfect 4th guy. It would take another all around stud type who was more of a shooter than Rubio to balance it all out though. Like a Rubio/Wiggins/Porter/Defender/Towns lineup could be pretty damn dangerous, especially if you had a good stretch 4 to really spread it out if needed.

Rubio would have been a perfect fit either way.
Scoring was never our problem.

Rubio-Butler-Wiggins-Gibson-Kat would‘ve been a tremendous lineup both offensively and defensively!
We could‘ve addressed the lack of shooting by signing a couple shooters for the bench. I dont even think the shooting would‘ve been a concern, though. Just pound it inside every single freaking time. But Thibs was too stubborn to realize this.

We blew this big time...

I dont like the Butler/Gibson part of that, that team is still destined to fail as it doesnt line up with the top players windows. Rubio/Wiggins/Towns would be fine, those 3 pieces and you immediately know what you need to add around them. You need at least one knock down shooter and one big time defender, prob a 3 and a 4 if you want to push Wiggins to the 2. Markkenen could have potentially qualified as the shooter but would have made the defense a concern, as the 4 is likely our best chance to add an impact team defender next to Towns. Anyway, I would have liked having a lock down defender like Dunn off the bench to pick up 1/2's as well. There was talk about Memphis moving the #4 to move Parsons, we would have had space and assets without Teague/Butler/Gibson to make a move and grab a guy like JJJ who can possibly add defense and shooting at the 4. Then you make a consolidation trade to target a Richardson/Covington type 3.

Rubio/Wiggins/Covington/JJJ/Towns

Lavine would have looked good to a team like the sixers who had plenty of space and a bunch of bigs lined up but no guards. We would have kept our lotto pick rather than the Okogie pick we could have grabbed Bridges or something to take over for Covington. Its also likely a deal with Covington coming our way would include more on their end in the form of a pick(s).

Butler still walks in a year. If he doesnt thats even worse, cuz that means we pay him huge $$$ as he breaks down. Were dodging a bullet not paying his next contact.

Yeah you and your crystal ball that just knows that Jimmy is going to break down. However, Wiggins is going to achieve greatness. Right.

[Rashodamus]

I just have a hard time believing that you can gain intensity from being coddled. Over the course of an 82 game season, you have to find your own motivation. It would be great if we had a coach who could bring out the best in Andrew on a nightly basis, I just don't know how likely that is. I've seen Wiggins with 4 head coaches now including at Kansas and he's always been the same guy.

I have a hard time believing you can make people want something because you do, not because they do. That doesnt mean he cant be motivated it just means he has to find the reason for himself, a coach should help that..

That's kind of the point though, if Wiggins isn't motivated on his own because he wants to become a great basketball player, there probably isn't a coach who can help him.

Is a player who is driven by a motivation to be a great player any better than a player who is driven by a motivation to get a big contract? Take pride in their job? Purely for fame and money? Purely out of ego and arrogance?

In the end it doesnt matter what makes the player move their ass. If being a great player isnt the most important thing in the world to them, so? Losers like Thibs are the simple minded types who say "this guys not a winner!" and discard them because they are too stupid to think outside of their archaic box. Ive seen Wiggins play hard in different circumstances, theres triggers which make him want it, whining about "he is what he is" is merely admitting your own failure as a coach.

Thibs will be gone eventually and Wiggins wont be, so long as they dont bring in another hardass dumpster fire im confident we will be able to revisit this.

[Rashodamus]

Yeah you and your crystal ball that just knows that Jimmy is going to break down. However, Wiggins is going to achieve greatness. Right.

Show me where I said anything about Wiggins and greatness you child.

I dont need a crystal ball to predict the guy who misses 15-20 games every year and plays recklessly and physically would miss 15-20 games and continue to get worse in that regard. Apparently that something that can only be predicted by mystical forces because logic and perception arent options for you.

Its funny watching you claim that I put words in peoples mouths when I dont, then do exactly that to me. In all my attempts to "converse" with you, you have yet to add a single articulated thought. All you do is autistically screech your feelings which are never backed by any form of actual thought out intelligent logic. Theres never any statistical backing, no articulation of your reasoning, no examples or comparisons, its literally just me having to put up with some braindead internet stranger spewing out their feelings like an angsty little child.

I asked you multiple times to stop bothering me yet you feel no reason to acquiesce and instead insist on giving me your worthless input. Please, with sugar on top, stop replying to my posts with your wastes of time, I dont want your shortbus trying to merge into my lanes on conversation.

Thanks.

[KGdaBom]

Yeah you and your crystal ball that just knows that Jimmy is going to break down. However, Wiggins is going to achieve greatness. Right.

Show me where I said anything about Wiggins and greatness you child.

I dont need a crystal ball to predict the guy who misses 15-20 games every year and plays recklessly and physically would miss 15-20 games and continue to get worse in that regard. Apparently that something that can only be predicted by mystical forces because logic and perception arent options for you.

Its funny watching you claim that I put words in peoples mouths when I dont, then do exactly that to me. In all my attempts to "converse" with you, you have yet to add a single articulated thought. All you do is autistically screech your feelings which are never backed by any form of actual thought out intelligent logic. Theres never any statistical backing, no articulation of your reasoning, no examples or comparisons, its literally just me having to put up with some braindead internet stranger spewing out their feelings like an angsty little child.

I asked you multiple times to stop bothering me yet you feel no reason to acquiesce and instead insist on giving me your worthless input. Please, with sugar on top, stop replying to my posts with your wastes of time, I dont want your shortbus trying to merge into my lanes on conversation.

Thanks.

This thread is about Wiggins being the Wolves future. Put me on enemies list please. Then I can mock you in peace.

[TaylorTag]

Wiggins goes against KD and Thompson, two of the best wings in the league, and everyone is up in arms because Wiggins struggled last night... Don't get it

[Rashodamus]

This thread is about Wiggins being the Wolves future. Put me on enemies list please. Then I can mock you in peace.

In what way have you successfully mocked me?

I came here a year ago and flat out told you what would happen with the Butler deal, you mocked me then too remember? So as Thibs and Butler are a dumpster fire burning around you and im smugly taking my victory lap, you still think you are the one mocking me? Every time I respond to you my notifications light up with and 1's for simply making you look silly yet you arent even cognizant enough to realize it, and apparently delusional enough to think you are somehow making a good showing for yourself.

Do you just long for a sadist, or do you genuinely not see the score here?

[MN7725]

Wiggins goes against KD and Thompson, two of the best wings in the league, and everyone is up in arms because Wiggins struggled last night... Don't get it

Ball handling is still loose and very bad
Shot mechanics are inconsistent from jump-shot to jump-shot

Competition level doesn't have anything to do with those things

[KGdaBom]

This thread is about Wiggins being the Wolves future. Put me on enemies list please. Then I can mock you in peace.

In what way have you successfully mocked me?

I came here a year ago and flat out told you what would happen with the Butler deal, you mocked me then too remember? So as Thibs and Butler are a dumpster fire burning around you and im smugly taking my victory lap, you still think you are the one mocking me? Every time I respond to you my notifications light up with and 1's for simply making you look silly yet you arent even cognizant enough to realize it, and apparently delusional enough to think you are somehow making a good showing for yourself.

Do you just long for a sadist, or do you genuinely not see the score here?

You were wrong in every one of your points in the thread that you started last year. You're taking a smug victory lap after being wrong about everything? OMG you are proud of getting and 1s? I just went and looked. You have hardly any and 1s, so you are even wrong about that. All you have shown me is that you are an extremely negative, extremely unhappy person trying to drag others into your misery.

[Loyal[]Wolf]

Wiggins goes against KD and Thompson, two of the best wings in the league, and everyone is up in arms because Wiggins struggled last night... Don't get it

Wiggins isn't the type to care about his preseason performance. I'm a huge Wiggins supporter, but if he is not balling during the first 10 games of the regular season, then even I will be negative towards him.

[vagelis]

Yes, from me too.
I want to see him in the first games of regular season. If he does not produce again with Butler gone I give up on him.
He should have improved his game in off season but I saw regress. Let's see the next games.
But I insist that he should play as sg in order to become more involved.
Start Rose as pg and Wiggins as sg.
Teague can score but he is a bad pg

[AirP.]

Is a player who is driven by a motivation to be a great player any better than a player who is driven by a motivation to get a big contract? Take pride in their job? Purely for fame and money? Purely out of ego and arrogance?

Absolutely, this is how you get players who have great last years of their contracts by busting their #)($ one year and then once they sign they let off the gas.

I'll take the guy who is always wanting to be better every day then the guy who's only chasing the next contract if their abilities are somewhat the same.