Time for Saunders to go?

[Killboard]

Funny fact: so far in the preseason the wolves are at 101.3 DRTG in the 15th place around the league.
It drops to 109.7 20th place when only counting the first half, with fewer trash time minutes.

They rank 28th in ORTG (92.1 full game and 91.2 in first halves).

That means the offense was a bigger problem than the defense. And is not only because this team is build to be that way but because with so many empty offensive posessions opposing teams create more transition oportunities, for which if the ORTG goes up the DRTG could improve a little as well.

[PharmD]

I am shocked at how unprepared the team has looked through 2 exhibition games. We have no plays or sets or discernible organization of any kind.

[King Malta]

If we're really stinking it up 30 games in then I think he definitely will go, but after finally getting the two 'stars' of this team fit and bringing in some more help over the off-season it would be very unfair to fire Ryan after 2 awful pre-season games, in my opinion anyway.

Agree that the offense looked a bigger problem than the defense in these two games too, which we can hopefully rectify. A lot of our prospects rest on KAT though, obviously, and he hasn't been anywhere near himself so far.

[Chello1]

Whether it is or isn't about the coach, once you start the season with him, you should probably let him at least coach to start of the season. These games don't mean anything.

I agree kind of.... I don't think he should have gotten here myself. I believe a new coach is needed to see if we can get more out of this group. If we can't then we know it is time to move on from this core....

[Chello1]

I sincerely hope that in two months from now we can bump this thread and all of us can have a laugh, including Chello1, at how prematurely alarming these pre-season games were.

I would love to say I was wrong!

[Chello1]

The Timberwolves have a systemic problem and the coach is part of it, but replacing him alone won't be a solution, because the roots are much deeper and they will remain untouched.

The Wolves have been operating like a franchise with absolutely no direction for most of the past decade (even longer, actually), and certainly since the beginning of the Andrew Wiggins, Zach LaVine and later Karl-Anthony Towns era. This is a franchise that does not know what it wants the team to become, or how to get there. And above all it is a franchise that through different FOs and several coaches continues to promote self-entitlement and a profound lack of accountability. They were never willing to keep Zach accountable during the 3 years he spent here, they didn't do it with Wiggins in 5 and a half seasons, and they haven't done so with KAT at any point either. What's worse, while getting rid of Wiggins' contract, they brought Towns' best buddy to the team giving him even more power and tying their future to a pair of players that are not willing / not able to do what it takes to win.

The FO and the coach need to take a long look in the mirror and decide what the hell they want to do. If they want to take the easy way out for however long they have a job here and keep Towns and Russell happy above all things, then by all means keep coddling them on offense and letting them play no defense with absolutely no repercussions. If they want to turn this franchise into something semi-respectable at the very least, then make the hard choices and...

1. Send those two (and anyone else) to the bench when they don't even try to help the team win in any way they can.

2. Move Russell to the SG spot, which is his natural position regardless of what he prefers to play, and let Rubio run the offense and direct on defense (otherwise why the **** did you trade for him?).

3. Assume that if you want to win, and with the roster as currently constructed, you need to bring Edwards and Beasley off the bench. Edwards may have been your #1 pick, but he's not a true #1 project. He's too raw, he doesn't fit the starting 5 for the time being and you can't focus on giving him 30 to 35 mpg and try to win each night at the same time. And the same goes for Beasley, you can't start him at SG alongside Russell with their lack of defense, and he's too small to play SF. You wanted to re-sign him so you wouldn't lose him for nothing, now you have to bring him off the bench and deal with him if he doesn't like it.

4. Shake up the roster, get some balance and depth where you need it the most. You're going nowhere with a hole the size of the freaking Vredefort crater at both forward spots. RHJ is a solid defensive option but as long as he's not even willing to take 3's he's going to have a low ceiling and end up on the bench when you need to space the floor. Juancho and Layman will do a few things on limited roles, but they're not starters in this league and likely won't be in the future. Keeping Culver and Okogie together makes no sense, even less now that you have Edwards and that you've signed another non-shooter in Hollis-Jefferson. Trade Beasley if you're serious about building the right culture. And understand that absolutely no one should be untouchable.

Keep doing the same we've been seeing for years, keep repeating the same mistakes, and this franchise will continue to struggle to become even mediocre.

Well Put!

[Killboard]

The Timberwolves have a systemic problem and the coach is part of it, but replacing him alone won't be a solution, because the roots are much deeper and they will remain untouched.

The Wolves have been operating like a franchise with absolutely no direction for most of the past decade (even longer, actually), and certainly since the beginning of the Andrew Wiggins, Zach LaVine and later Karl-Anthony Towns era. This is a franchise that does not know what it wants the team to become, or how to get there. And above all it is a franchise that through different FOs and several coaches continues to promote self-entitlement and a profound lack of accountability. They were never willing to keep Zach accountable during the 3 years he spent here, they didn't do it with Wiggins in 5 and a half seasons, and they haven't done so with KAT at any point either. What's worse, while getting rid of Wiggins' contract, they brought Towns' best buddy to the team giving him even more power and tying their future to a pair of players that are not willing / not able to do what it takes to win.

The FO and the coach need to take a long look in the mirror and decide what the hell they want to do. If they want to take the easy way out for however long they have a job here and keep Towns and Russell happy above all things, then by all means keep coddling them on offense and letting them play no defense with absolutely no repercussions. If they want to turn this franchise into something semi-respectable at the very least, then make the hard choices and...

1. Send those two (and anyone else) to the bench when they don't even try to help the team win in any way they can.

2. Move Russell to the SG spot, which is his natural position regardless of what he prefers to play, and let Rubio run the offense and direct on defense (othewise why the **** did you trade for him?).

3. Assume that if you want to win, and with the roster as currently constructed, you need to bring Edwards and Beasley off the bench. Edwards may have been your #1 pick, but he's not a true #1 project. He's too raw, he doesn't fit the starting 5 for the time being and you can't focus on giving him 30 to 35 mpg and try to win each night at the same time. And the same goes for Beasley, you can't start him at SG alongside Russell with their lack of defense, and he's too small to play SF. You wanted to re-sign him so you wouldn't lose him for nothing, now you have to bring him off the bench and deal with him if he doesn't like it.

4. Shake up the roster, get some balance and depth where you need it the most. You're going nowhere with a hole the size of the freaking Vredefort crater at both forward spots. RHJ is a solid defensive option but as long as he's not even willing to take 3's he's going to have a low ceiling and end up on the bench when you need to space the floor. Juancho and Layman will do a few things on limited roles, but they're not starters in this league and likely won't be in the future. Keeping Culver and Okogie together makes no sense, even less now that you have Edwards and that you've signed another non-shooter in Hollis-Jefferson. Trade Beasley if you're serious about building the right culture. And understand that absolutely no one should be untouchable.

Keep doing the same we've been seeing for years, keep repeating the same mistakes, and this franchise will continue to struggle to become even mediocre.

Unfortunely this not going to get enough and1 as it should. The true hurts and this franchise became such a loser that people can't even see the simple things like this.

I agree with some of the takes here.

Still, you know what else people can't see? That this team has played two games after turning over half of the roster, after turning over the whole roster at the deadline last season, and played barely 14 games together without his main piece.

Beasley for example is shooting 7 from 21 so far in the preaseason. KAT is 7 from 25. Ricky has the same amount of assists than turnovers. Once they all are playing like their career averages then we can make relatively fair assumptions.

[UnFadeable21]

Read on Twitter

?s=21

Read on Twitter

?s=21

These quotes should worry you that we don’t play hard and are unprepared.

Ryan is friends with all the players but what these players need is someone to hold them accountable for effort and play on the court.

Does anyone think the players fear Ryan will pull them out of the game?

There’s a reason why Ryan is the lowest paid head coach in the NBA at 800k. Most D1 coaches are paid many times more than him.

[cpfsf]

I think minnesota doesnt fire enough coaches. We need to start firing them annually instead of every other year.

[Jedzz]

I sincerely hope that in two months from now we can bump this thread and all of us can have a laugh, including Chello1, at how prematurely alarming these pre-season games were.

Keeping it real, there is a good chance we are mediocre (35% win rate) and people are furious, even though Minnesota's schedule is brutal and the team is pretty imbalanced. Hoping you are right, but I am a bit concerned about this season being a mess.

I think it looks like a mess for one single solitary reason. Edwards, and how they are infusing him or testing him right now.

Many have prelocked into their brains that the #1 overall should look blessed enough that he would at least improve this roster as a rookie in high minutes or starts. Let's just cast aside my complete disagreement with that sentiment because a rookie that doesn't have ultra high BBIQ is going to be a mess half the time as a rookie and we have starting capable Vets. Casting that aside, we need to look at how they have chosen to play him in these two preseason games. Not as a SF or SG off ball only. No. We see him bringing the ball up on enough examples already in the preseason to know the team wants to see it in preseason to see what he's like. The team already had the DLO/Towns pair that still needed to play together and build that rapport yet. Dlo still needed to become a PG leader here yet. Not many games for him last spring. Then they brought in Rubio. Which seems nuts other than Rubio can play with others, and Dlo can play both on and off ball, so we could see some light still. But now, now we are seeing them dabble with Edwards running the offense? Right now? So the Lower BBIQ rookie is going to lead the two vet guards? I think this is why it all looks like a mess right now. Someone explain who's idea this is and what the idea is leading to as options.

Are they just getting a look because it's preseason and the regular season will start letting DLO/Rubio lead this thing, or are they really thinking about having him run the Georgia offense here as a rookie? Even if thinking that is a bit extreme already, are they wasting their preparatory time for this season on getting these looks at the rookie and losing time that could be getting the vet PGs and this offense going?

[Killboard]

Read on Twitter

?s=21

Read on Twitter

?s=21

These quotes should worry you that we don’t play hard and are unprepared.

Ryan is friends with all the players but what these players need is someone to hold them accountable for effort and play on the court.

Does anyone think the players fear Ryan will pull them out of the game?

There’s a reason why Ryan is the lowest paid head coach in the NBA at 800k. Most D1 coaches are paid many times more than him.

KAT and DLO are helding each other accountable, as it should be. Ryan can be long gone and those two still around getting all the blame. Is their reputation which is at their stakes.

Read on Twitter

?s=20

Read on Twitter

?s=20

[Klomp]

The problem is, I think fans are treating this roster like a finished product.....as if Rosas and Saunders put together this collection of players believing it will win the NBA championship in 2021.

Except that's not the case at all. Rosas knows it. Saunders knows it. But a number of fans don't seem to understand that notion.

[Baseline81]

The problem is, I think fans are treating this roster like a finished product.....as if Rosas and Saunders put together this collection of players believing it will win the NBA championship in 2021.

Except that's not the case at all. Rosas knows it. Saunders knows it. But a number of fans don't seem to understand that notion.

I don't think that's it at all, Klomp. If you recall the thread on 2021 projections, didn't the majority feel the team would compete for the 9th or 10th spot in the Western Conference (play-in game)?

[Killboard]

Funny fact: so far in the preseason the wolves are at 101.3 DRTG in the 15th place around the league.
It drops to 109.7 20th place when only counting the first half, with fewer trash time minutes.

They rank 28th in ORTG (92.1 full game and 91.2 in first halves).

That means the offense was a bigger problem than the defense. And is not only because this team is build to be that way but because with so many empty offensive posessions opposing teams create more transition oportunities, for which if the ORTG goes up the DRTG could improve a little as well.

Expanding a little more into the offensive problem this 2 preseason games, I went back to watch the start of the second game.


1st possession
Right side P&R between Dlo and KAT, Grizz hiding Morant on Malik, Okogie at top of the key.
Brooks leaves Okogie and tags DLo before he turns the corner, makes a steal, ends up on Anderson transition 2.

2nd possession
Pretty much the same set, Okogie at the top of the key, but this time KAT starts the motion instead of Dlo.
Malik back doors Jah (KAT can't pass because Melton, who was Okogie matchup, leaved him and sinked on Malik timely).
Posession ends in KAT open 3 that he missess.

3rd possession
Malik posts KAT, misses left hook.

4th possession
Left side P&R between KAT and Dlo
Malik is open but Dlo snakes, takes a FT ranged 2 pointer (makes)

5th possession
Malik right side P&R with KAT
Morant goes under, Malik does not shoot, dribbles left, Valanciunas switches on him, KAT backdoors Morant, Malik makes a bounce pass to him, which allows Melton to jump into the passing lane after leaving Okogie open in the opposite corner.
Ends up in Anderson floater.

6th posession:
Malik-KAT P&R, Beasley takes an uncontested one dribble pull up from 3, missess.

Ryan calls timeout.
7th possession
Dlo goes to the line for 3 att.

8th possession:
KAT makes open 3 after Okogie runs the court.

9th possession:
KAT iso'd Valanciunas, left handed layup, missess.
Anderson makes a 3.

11th possession:
Dlo and KAT middle P&R Dlo snakes, makes the long 2.

10th possession:
Dlo takes a transition off the dribble 3 after the grizzlies miss, hits the backboard

11th possession
Dlo tries to make the entry pass, Brooks deflects, Wolves keep possession.
-------------------------------------
Rubio, Edwards and Juancho check in.
-------------------------------------
Out of bounds play ends with Juancho finding Edwards for a layup (Ricky screen assists).

12th possession
KAT posts
Malik wants to play off a juancho screen and bumps Edwards who was making a cut to the rim. Ends up in Malik taking a semi contested 3, missess, take his rebound, attemps a forced layup, missess again.


I stopped watching here. Score was 20-11.

I'm not saying Beasley and Okogie can't play better, or can't start. Malik needs to play to his strenghts more, and improve as a passer. Not even as a live dribble passer but with his overal reads. And Okogie needs to play in the corner. He is not effective playing above the arc. And if he is in the corner and his defender cheats (which they will), his teamates must find him and he must shoot and do it well. He shot .348% from the corners last season. That's a good start.

If for whatever reasons that does not happen soon, then we need Ricky and likely Culver out there. They are equal or better as defenders. And in offense they are significantly better putting the ball in the floor or making plays for others when the defense cheats.

[Klomp]

The problem is, I think fans are treating this roster like a finished product.....as if Rosas and Saunders put together this collection of players believing it will win the NBA championship in 2021.

Except that's not the case at all. Rosas knows it. Saunders knows it. But a number of fans don't seem to understand that notion.

I don't think that's it at all, Klomp. If you recall the thread on 2021 projections, didn't the majority feel the team would compete for the 9th or 10th spot in the Western Conference (play-in game)?

Basketball seasons are rarely linear. A .500 team doesn't just alternate wins and losses.

The team is going to look rusty after nine months off. I also believe Memphis is not a good matchup for us. We're going to probably win games we "shouldn't" and lose some we "shouldn't." As the season goes on, it will level out more, and we will hopefully go on a run as older teams rest guys in the shortened season. Those are the types of games I expect to steal.

[Killboard]

The problem is, I think fans are treating this roster like a finished product.....as if Rosas and Saunders put together this collection of players believing it will win the NBA championship in 2021.

Except that's not the case at all. Rosas knows it. Saunders knows it. But a number of fans don't seem to understand that notion.

I don't think that's it at all, Klomp. If you recall the thread on 2021 projections, didn't the majority feel the team would compete for the 9th or 10th spot in the Western Conference (play-in game)?

I'm not Klomp but that should be totally the expectations going forward. Problem is most of the teams that we are measuring against (Memphis, Phoenix, Pelicans even Kings, Dallas or GS) have most their cores since the beggining of last season. You can't pretend that's an equal start for everybody and make your takes more valid without ponder that to some extent.

[Jedzz]

Still, you know what else people can't see? That this team has played two games after turning over half of the roster, after turning over the whole roster at the deadline last season, and played barely 14 games together without his main piece.

Beasley for example is shooting 7 from 21 so far in the preaseason. KAT is 7 from 25. Ricky has the same amount of assists than turnovers. Once they all are playing like their career averages then we can make relatively fair assumptions.

I'm giving it time to see what you are waiting for Killboard. Hope they can get their averages out of them the way they've constructed it. That's my concern, the roster construction allowing it. But I certainly see that they need time and haven't had any yet.

As for starting guards in league having defense: In regard to Sugarless' and others gripes.
(last season #s this year's rosters)

Bucks: (best?)
Jrue Holiday, 108 Orating, 112 Drating
Donte DiVincenzo, 108 Orating, 101 Drating

Raptors: (2nd best?)
Kyle Lowry, 116 Orating, 106 Drating
Fred VanVleet, 113 Orating, 106 Drating

Clippers: (3rd best?)
Patrick Beverley, 116 Orating, 107 Drating
Paul Georgem, 112 Orating, 106 Drating

Lakers: FInals Winner
Lebron James, 116 Orating, 106 Drating
Dennis Schroder, 108 Orating, 112 Drating

Celtics:
Kemba Walker, 116 Orating, 110 Drating
Marcus Smart, 110 Orating, 107 Drating

Thunder:
Shai G-A, 111 Orating, 109 Drating
H Diallo, 94 Orating, 109 Drating

Nets:
Kyrie Irving, 119 Orating, 109 Drating
Caris LeVert, 102 Orating, 110 Drating

Utah:
Mike Conley, 109 Orating, 112 Drating
Donovan Mitchell, 110 Orating, 111 Drating

76ers:
Ben Simmons, 116 Orating, 106 Drating
Seth Curry. 123 Orating, 115 Drating

Rockets:
John Wall, 104 Orating, 114 Drating (18-19 season)
James Harden, 120 Orating, 108 Drating

Pacers:
Malcolm Brogdon, 111 Orating, 111 Drating
Victor Oladipo, 94 Orating, 110 Drating

Spurs
Dejounte Murray, 105 Orating, 110 Drating
Derrick White, 118 Orating, 114 Drating

Mavericks:
Luka Doncic, 116 Orating, 110 Drating
Tim Hardcore Jr., 116 Orating, 115 Drating

Miami: FInals Loser
Goran Dragic, 110 Orating, 113 Drating
Duncan Robinson, 122 Orating, 113 Drating

Warriors:
Stephen Curry, 109 Orating, 113 Drating (120/110 prev season)
Andrew Wiggins, 106 Orating, 113 Drating

Minnesota:
Rubio, 113 Orating, 111 Drating
(JMAC, 121 Orating, 113 Drating)
Russell, 105 Orating, 113 Drating
Beasley, 111 Orating, 115 Drating
Culver, 94 Orating, 113 Drating
Okogie, 104 Orating, 113 Drating

Kings:
De'Aaron Fox, 111 Orating, 112 Drating
Buddy Hield, 106 Orating, 114 Drating

Grizzlies
Ja Morant, 109 Orating, 113 Drating
Dillon Brooks, 100 Orating, 113 Drating

Denver:
Jamal Murray, 112 Orating, 113 Drating
Garry Harris, 105 Orating, 113 Drating

Portland:
Damian Lillard, 126 Orating, 117 Drating
CJ McCollum, 111 Orating, 118 Drating

[Killboard]

Still, you know what else people can't see? That this team has played two games after turning over half of the roster, after turning over the whole roster at the deadline last season, and played barely 14 games together without his main piece.

Beasley for example is shooting 7 from 21 so far in the preaseason. KAT is 7 from 25. Ricky has the same amount of assists than turnovers. Once they all are playing like their career averages then we can make relatively fair assumptions.

I'm giving it time to see what you are waiting for Killboard. Hope they can get their averages out of them the way they've constructed it. That's my concern, the roster construction allowing it. But I certainly see that they need time and haven't had any yet.

Maybe I worded poorly but wasn't about total stats or even per game averages. That would be a stretch when we don't even know how the minute distribution will be. But in terms or efficency or even per minute average should not be far away. Even if the pieces don't fit very well KAT won't go 25% from the floor or Malik 33%. But Wolves won't have much time before the games are must win. January is a month full of macthups against bad teams. If we can't get some air out of it will be hard to catch up later.

Ryan needs to assess that short term even if some ego gets a hit by falling of the starting matchup early in the season.

[Merc_Porto]

The problem is, I think fans are treating this roster like a finished product.....as if Rosas and Saunders put together this collection of players believing it will win the NBA championship in 2021.

Except that's not the case at all. Rosas knows it. Saunders knows it. But a number of fans don't seem to understand that notion.

You guys and the finished product.
How the hell you improve from here to one day become a contendor (not a treamdill playoff team) with the cap situation we have and the picks that we don't have.

Do you remember 2017 right? And the part where many people told that there was no room to improve from that point with the situation we were back then, especially the cap situation and also the roster and the way it was constructed.

This is a deja vu situation.

Rosas with the direction he took this off season put this franchise in a dangerous situation by relying 75M on 3 players that only are good on one end of the floor.

[Sugarless]

The Timberwolves have a systemic problem and the coach is part of it, but replacing him alone won't be a solution, because the roots are much deeper and they will remain untouched.

The Wolves have been operating like a franchise with absolutely no direction for most of the past decade (even longer, actually), and certainly since the beginning of the Andrew Wiggins, Zach LaVine and later Karl-Anthony Towns era. This is a franchise that does not know what it wants the team to become, or how to get there. And above all it is a franchise that through different FOs and several coaches continues to promote self-entitlement and a profound lack of accountability. They were never willing to keep Zach accountable during the 3 years he spent here, they didn't do it with Wiggins in 5 and a half seasons, and they haven't done so with KAT at any point either. What's worse, while getting rid of Wiggins' contract, they brought Towns' best buddy to the team giving him even more power and tying their future to a pair of players that are not willing / not able to do what it takes to win.

The FO and the coach need to take a long look in the mirror and decide what the hell they want to do. If they want to take the easy way out for however long they have a job here and keep Towns and Russell happy above all things, then by all means keep coddling them on offense and letting them play no defense with absolutely no repercussions. If they want to turn this franchise into something semi-respectable at the very least, then make the hard choices and...

1. Send those two (and anyone else) to the bench when they don't even try to help the team win in any way they can.

2. Move Russell to the SG spot, which is his natural position regardless of what he prefers to play, and let Rubio run the offense and direct on defense (othewise why the **** did you trade for him?).

3. Assume that if you want to win, and with the roster as currently constructed, you need to bring Edwards and Beasley off the bench. Edwards may have been your #1 pick, but he's not a true #1 project. He's too raw, he doesn't fit the starting 5 for the time being and you can't focus on giving him 30 to 35 mpg and try to win each night at the same time. And the same goes for Beasley, you can't start him at SG alongside Russell with their lack of defense, and he's too small to play SF. You wanted to re-sign him so you wouldn't lose him for nothing, now you have to bring him off the bench and deal with him if he doesn't like it.

4. Shake up the roster, get some balance and depth where you need it the most. You're going nowhere with a hole the size of the freaking Vredefort crater at both forward spots. RHJ is a solid defensive option but as long as he's not even willing to take 3's he's going to have a low ceiling and end up on the bench when you need to space the floor. Juancho and Layman will do a few things on limited roles, but they're not starters in this league and likely won't be in the future. Keeping Culver and Okogie together makes no sense, even less now that you have Edwards and that you've signed another non-shooter in Hollis-Jefferson. Trade Beasley if you're serious about building the right culture. And understand that absolutely no one should be untouchable.

Keep doing the same we've been seeing for years, keep repeating the same mistakes, and this franchise will continue to struggle to become even mediocre.

Unfortunely this not going to get enough and1 as it should. The true hurts and this franchise became such a loser that people can't even see the simple things like this.

I agree with some of the takes here.

Still, you know what else people can't see? That this team has played two games after turning over half of the roster, after turning over the whole roster at the deadline last season, and played barely 14 games together without his main piece.

Beasley for example is shooting 7 from 21 so far in the preaseason. KAT is 7 from 25. Ricky has the same amount of assists than turnovers. Once they all are playing like their career averages then we can make relatively fair assumptions.

But it's not about the anecdotes. It's not Beasley or KAT shooting low percentages. It's not about Ricky having a low A/TO ratio in two preseason games. Nobody, absolutely nobody is talking about that. It's about how this team is built, what the rotation looks like to begin the season, and how we're seeing the same mistakes and flaws that have haunted this team and certain players for years.