Trade Talk (Part Seven)

[shangrila]

If we’re going to forget about salary issues and assume MN wants to acquire Simmons while holding on to DLo, KAT, and Edwards, what does that look like?

I really don’t want to move McDaniels. That’s leaves some combo of Beasley, Rubio, Culver, Nowell, and Reid. These are the only other guys, to me, that arguably have positive or even neutral value on their contracts.

So Beasley plus others plus a couple of lightly protected picks? Philly isn’t going to want picks, so I’m assuming those picks would have to go to a third team that flips a player to Philly.

Maybe something like Beasley to Philly. Picks to Toronto for s/t Lowry. Simmons to MN. Then filler to make the deal work. Philly ends up with Lowry and Beasley, which isn’t a bad end result for them.

We could easily do a straight Rubio+Beasley swap for Simmons. That works financially, though it would have us taking on an extra mil which isn't ideal. We could maybe add Layman, which swings it to us shedding 3 mil, and at that point I'd include a lightly protected 1st as well. Whatever Philly wants to do with the pick after that is their business.

Although I'd also be canvassing the late 1st/early 2nd pick holders to see if they're interested in Okogie and/or Culver, which should save us money. Something like Okogie to Denver for 26 or the Nets for 27, then maybe Culver to Houston for either 23 or 24. That would then save us a little extra to hopefully sign some vets to round out the roster.

[LibertyPrime]

If we're going to go all out on another big piece, I'd much prefer it to be Collin Sexton than Simmons. At least he's still young enough to lose some bad habits.

I'll admit I'm curious as to what a front-line of Simmons/D'Lo/Ant/PF/KAT would look like, but not thrilled about what it does to the money/free-agent situation.

Simmons is our PF if he is on the team.

Is he though? He started half of the games this year at guard; the year before that 50+ games at guard; the year before that almost all at guard (according to ESPN, anyhow). That's AFTER the big announcement that he was going to play PF last summer. I don't watch that many Sixers games, so maybe I'm missing something. I get the feeling that PG is what he WANTS to play which is why Philly has been bending over backwards for him.

[Dalvin]

I wanna ask, is there any possible way we can get Simmons without giving away: KAT, Ant, Rubio, D'Lo, Beasley, J McD?

[MN7725]

I wanna ask, is there any possible way we can get Simmons without giving away: KAT, Ant, Rubio, D'Lo, Beasley, J McD?

no, need to get salary to like $25 mil heading out
you listed the five highest paid players and McDaniels

[Baseline81]

If the deal could be Beasley, Rubio, and a couple #1s (plus spare parts), I think McDaniels starts over Vanderbilt, which helps spacing.

Morey will ask for more, but that is probably as high of an offer as Rosas can give. Whether a third team becomes involved is another matter.

There will be posters who think it's an overpay, and, to some degree, they are correct. However, the Wolves do not have the assets other teams do -- better player or higher pick(s).

Rosas should throw his chips in if he believes in Russell, Edwards and Towns. Again, what other path do they have in the summer? Not much can be done outside of internal development (no cap space, no pick). And because the Wolves will push for a playoff spot, at least play-in game, they won't be receiving high lottery odds.

[BlacJacMac]

I wanna ask, is there any possible way we can get Simmons without giving away: KAT, Ant, Rubio, D'Lo, Beasley, J McD?

Absolutely.

But you’d be very disappointed when you found out we traded for Jonathan Simmons…

[Dalvin]

I wanna ask, is there any possible way we can get Simmons without giving away: KAT, Ant, Rubio, D'Lo, Beasley, J McD?

no, need to get salary to like $25 mil heading out
you listed the five highest paid players and McDaniels

Yeah, guess not. I'm not interested then

[Dalvin]

I wanna ask, is there any possible way we can get Simmons without giving away: KAT, Ant, Rubio, D'Lo, Beasley, J McD?

Absolutely.

But you’d be very disappointed when you found out we traded for Jonathan Simmons…

is he still playing?

[Macwolf527]

If anything happens between the Wolves and Sixers, expect Toronto to be involved. I truly believe the Sixers want Lowry. I think seeds were planted at the deadline when we heard about Toronto’s interest in Rubio. The interesting part for me is how they make up the salary difference. I don’t think it will Beasley but sadly some combination of McDaniels, Reid, or Culver, with Juancho or Layman tossed in as fodder.

I truly believe the Wolves are players with Golden State as our main competitor. I definitely believe they want Simmons in the West.

[Klomp]

If anything happens between the Wolves and Sixers, expect Toronto to be involved. I truly believe the Sixers want Lowry. I think seeds were planted at the deadline when we heard about Toronto’s interest in Rubio. The interesting part for me is how they make up the salary difference. I don’t think it will Beasley but sadly some combination of McDaniels, Reid, or Culver, with Juancho or Layman tossed in as fodder.

I truly believe the Wolves are players with Golden State as our main competitor. I definitely believe they want Simmons in the West.

I agree with basically all of this.

Rubio, Naz to TOR
Lowry, Culver to PHI
Simmons to MIN

The Toronto inclusion actually I think makes it easier to not have to include Beasley.

[old school 34]

Yep.

Twolves going all-in on Simmons.

Modified the trade based on the need for MN to get Lowery in this deal.

MN IN: Ben Simmons / 33mil / 4 yrs

TOR IN: Ricky Rubio / 17.8mil / 1 yr
Gary Clarke / 2mil / 1 yr
Timberwolves 2022 1st round pick


PHI IN: Malik Beasley / 14.3mil / 3yrs
Timberwolves 2023 2nd round pick
Timberwolves 2024 1st round pick
Kyle Lowry / S&T 20mil/ 3 yrs


Steep price.

But Rosas is going to attempt to grab Simmons and put all the chips in middle of table.

Not sure I'd do it, but that seems like a reasonable, well-thought out trade that works for all 3 teams.

Not an easy thing to accomplish.

That's a pretty similar deal to the one Minimus had earlier & my variation is very similar as well...but first, I'd like some clarity on the Stepian rule...how can we trade 22 frp when we just dealt this year's 21 to GSW? Don't we need to start with 23 frp's here?

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[old school 34]

Here's my trade variation for Simmons (essentially a 4-teamer that maybe needs to be broken down into parts to work around the draft & S&T, but with these 4 GM's they can get that worked out).

Philly gets MN frp's 22 & 24, Lowery (S& T), Okogie, & Beasley for Simmons, G.Hill, & this year's frp

OKC gets Culver for 2-2nd's (34 &55)

Tor gets 34, Rubio, & Hill for Lowery

Min gets Phi frp (26?), 55, & Simmons for Rubio, Beasley, Okogie, Culver, & frp's in 22 & 24

Why for each...

Philly needs to move on & Morey still will get more for Simmons than what folks hope (he won't panic)...Lowery & Beasley fit Embid & JO gives them a POA defender for this year's frp which then allows them to get MN's 22 & 24 vs the 23 & 25 assuming my Stepian rule interpretation is correct?

OKC...free look @ JC & they consolidate a couple picks...they really won't keep all 6 current pucka that they have? This is MN's best trade partner on moving JC to imo without having to pay.

Tor...now that they have #4 in hand...move Kyle to a contender for rook guard whisperer RR (where they most likely draft Suggs or Green)...gain a valuable high 2nd...& with Hill & Baynes both on roster...that's like 17 mil of non-guaranteed deals for future trade

Min...if you don't believe Simmons will figure it out...you see it as massive overpay....I feel he can still be pretty damn good & is a really good fit. Dlo & him were successful together...granted in HS, but he helps a ton from the defensive side, gives us another playmaker on the floor or be the one setting the picks as well (which again could eliminate say 1 offensive foul a game for KAT) operating very Draymond like (DG who didn't put a lower ceiling on GSW come playoffs if I remember right)...is he perfect--nope...but confident that we now have a coach like Finch that can hide his flaws since the starting 5 would compliment each other so well.

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[Merc_Porto]

The opportunity is now to get Ben. I'm sorry but some of the offers here for Ben are hilarious. In 2 months of the season his trade value would rise again to the level of getting a James Harden in return...

We are talking about an 3× NBA All-Star (2019–2021)All-NBA Third Team (2020)
2× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2020, 2021)

The best perimeter defender in the league that just finished 2nd for DPOY, and a gifted playmaker. All of this with 24yo...

Put the right pieces around him and we would have the playoffs guaranteed next season.

I mean, getting Ben by giving away only Rubio, Naz and Culver. That one was funny Klomp, nice one

[Neeva]

He’s overated. Secret is out already,gms will lowball Philly, why shouldn’t they?

[Nick K]

I loved Simmons coming out of the draft. That said, I believe he is over-rated in a lot of ways. He's a great defender for sure and can get to the basket but he has major weaknesses.

On the Wolves he'll have to play the PF and be the 4th option. Can he do that? Can he play inside and rebound and rim protect like a demon? If he can't do that we should look elsewhere for that because that's what we need.

I don't know if Simmons can be great inside. If I knew he could be I would go all out to get him but I'm not convinced.

We just ram Wiggins out of town for lack of passion and killer instinct. Isn't that Ben Simmons?

If Simmons is so great why is Philly trying to run him out of town?

I could give up Ricky and Beasley but those are two very good players that are great pieces for a team. Philly would be a better team with those two guys. In fact they are perfect for Philly but two future 1st rd picks are too much.

Lastly, he's still owed 140 million frickin dollars! That's 4 more years. He'll be the highest paid guy on the team. Can you pay that kind of money to the 4th option. How will Kat feel about that. Kat is a far better overall player.

Being a great defender only gets you so far in a team game like basketball.

There is 1.2 seconds left on the clock and you are down by 2 and they foul Simmons. How confident are you he ties the game.

[Norseman79]

Kicking around 3 team Simmons' trades...I think this is the simplest one I can find...

Phi in: Barnes, Beasley
Out: Simmons, Hill

Why? Phi moves Simmons for two legit shooters. Curry, Beasley, Barnes, Harris and Embiid gives them as many shooters as possible. Plus gives Phi two smaller contracts to be able to use in event of roster blow up, that is a better "team" than what they currently have and fits Embiid way better and is win now.

Sac in: Hill, Rubio, Reid
Out: Barnes, Jones

Why? Sac town is young, I toyed with using Heild instead of Barnes, and that would work, just thought Phili prefer Barnes as a replacement for Simmons...better shooting, not as dynamic type of forward on much better contract and a career 37% 3pt shooter. This is simply a case of Sac getting two big expiring contracts to be able to supplement their young core of Fox and Haliburton...(as well as two solid vets for mentoring in Hill and Rubio) and a young prospect in Reid who matches their core.

MN in: Simmons, Jones
Out: Rubio, Beasley

Why? We get Simmons and make playoffs or ditch Kat, DLo, and Russell next offseason...to build around Ant. Damian Jones as a defensive big man to put behind Kat and replaces Naz.


Where I did get stuck was draft pick compensation...I am sure some would be needed, but if I am Sacramento and Phili, even without the picks, I feel good about this trade.

Rip away.

[Norseman79]

I loved Simmons coming out of the draft. That said, I believe he is over-rated in a lot of ways. He's a great defender for sure and can get to the basket but he has major weaknesses.

On the Wolves he'll have to play the PF and be the 4th option. Can he do that? Can he play inside and rebound and rim protect like a demon? If he can't do that we should look elsewhere for that because that's what we need.

I don't know if Simmons can be great inside. If I knew he could be I would go all out to get him but I'm not convinced.

We just ram Wiggins out of town for lack of passion and killer instinct. Isn't that Ben Simmons?

If Simmons is so great why is Philly trying to run him out of town?

I could give up Ricky and Beasley but those are two very good players that are great pieces for a team. Philly would be a better team with those two guys. In fact they are perfect for Philly but two future 1st rd picks are too much.

Lastly, he's still owed 140 million frickin dollars! That's 4 more years. He'll be the highest paid guy on the team. Can you pay that kind of money to the 4th option. How will Kat feel about that. Kat is a far better overall player.

Being a great defender only gets you so far in a team game like basketball.

There is 1.2 seconds left on the clock and you are down by 2 and they foul Simmons. How confident are you he ties the game.

You make great points...the only one I would address is the last one...I wouldn't be confident in Simmons making 2of2...but I wouldn't be confident in KAT doing it either, especially if it's a big game.

[shangrila]

Yep.

Twolves going all-in on Simmons.

Modified the trade based on the need for MN to get Lowery in this deal.

MN IN: Ben Simmons / 33mil / 4 yrs

TOR IN: Ricky Rubio / 17.8mil / 1 yr
Gary Clarke / 2mil / 1 yr
Timberwolves 2022 1st round pick


PHI IN: Malik Beasley / 14.3mil / 3yrs
Timberwolves 2023 2nd round pick
Timberwolves 2024 1st round pick
Kyle Lowry / S&T 20mil/ 3 yrs


Steep price.

But Rosas is going to attempt to grab Simmons and put all the chips in middle of table.

Not sure I'd do it, but that seems like a reasonable, well-thought out trade that works for all 3 teams.

Not an easy thing to accomplish.

That's a pretty similar deal to the one Minimus had earlier & my variation is very similar as well...but first, I'd like some clarity on the Stepian rule...how can we trade 22 frp when we just dealt this year's 21 to GSW? Don't we need to start with 23 frp's here?

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Stepien only applies to future picks. Since this pick has been conveyed at this point, it no longer counts towards it.

[shangrila]

Here's my trade variation for Simmons (essentially a 4-teamer that maybe needs to be broken down into parts to work around the draft & S&T, but with these 4 GM's they can get that worked out).

Philly gets MN frp's 22 & 24, Lowery (S& T), Okogie, & Beasley for Simmons, G.Hill, & this year's frp

OKC gets Culver for 2-2nd's (34 &55)

Tor gets 34, Rubio, & Hill for Lowery

Min gets Phi frp (26?), 55, & Simmons for Rubio, Beasley, Okogie, Culver, & frp's in 22 & 24

Why for each...

Philly needs to move on & Morey still will get more for Simmons than what folks hope (he won't panic)...Lowery & Beasley fit Embid & JO gives them a POA defender for this year's frp which then allows them to get MN's 22 & 24 vs the 23 & 25 assuming my Stepian rule interpretation is correct?

OKC...free look @ JC & they consolidate a couple picks...they really won't keep all 6 current pucka that they have? This is MN's best trade partner on moving JC to imo without having to pay.

Tor...now that they have #4 in hand...move Kyle to a contender for rook guard whisperer RR (where they most likely draft Suggs or Green)...gain a valuable high 2nd...& with Hill & Baynes both on roster...that's like 17 mil of non-guaranteed deals for future trade

Min...if you don't believe Simmons will figure it out...you see it as massive overpay....I feel he can still be pretty damn good & is a really good fit. Dlo & him were successful together...granted in HS, but he helps a ton from the defensive side, gives us another playmaker on the floor or be the one setting the picks as well (which again could eliminate say 1 offensive foul a game for KAT) operating very Draymond like (DG who didn't put a lower ceiling on GSW come playoffs if I remember right)...is he perfect--nope...but confident that we now have a coach like Finch that can hide his flaws since the starting 5 would compliment each other so well.

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I don't think this deal could happen. Or at least it would be such obvious tampering that the league would be all but forced to investigate.

The problem is that everyone would have to know what contract Lowry was going to get. Which would require someone communicating with him, which is illegal before FA starts. Maybe it's one of those wink-wink nudge-nudge situations where everyone looks the other way but I kind of doubt it. And sure, maybe you could line the ducks up but if Lowry pulls a Bogdan then everyone is stuck with whichever draftees they had for the other teams.

I think it's simpler to cut out some of the current draft picks and consumate the deal in FA. So something like;

PHI gets: Lowry (S&T), Beasley, Okogie, future 1st/s
TOR gets: Rubio, Hill
MIN gets: Simmons

But I still don't like it. I just don't see why Toronto would agree to take on someone like Rubio. I'm not entirely convinced they take Suggs either as I'd be surprised if they're keen to replicate the mini-backcourt that they're moving on from if Lowry is gone. I'm also not sure why Philly would be interested in Okogie as they've already got Thybulle, on top of the fact that I think (according to the capulator anyway) that Simmons might have a no-trade clause, which significantly increases his salary. So I'd actually make it a lot more complicated and bring Boston in, doing;

PHI gets: Lowry (S&T), Beasley, Hernangomez, future 1st/s
TOR gets: Thompson, Nesmith, Hill
BOS gets: Rubio
MIN gets: Simmons

Now I stick Philly with Juancho to cover the increase in Simmons' salary and he's not totally worthless for them. Boston gives up Nesmith, who had a disappointing year, but gets a passing PG that they haven't had since Rondo. Toronto takes on some expiring vets and gets a look at Nesmith. And we get Simmons.

[TaylorTag]

Has anyone thrown out the idea of Bolmaro being a trade chip? The Wolves FO has done a good job pumping his tires. It does seem like he had a good year in Europe.. Would another franchise, perhaps Toronto, be interested in someone like that -- even if Bolmaro doesn't come over this year, his potential would seem to make his rights (which we own) a positive asset.

I'm not sure how that works money wise, I believe Bolmaro's draft slot would dictate what his salary would be.. so not much.. But if we can package Bolmaro in a bigger trade, he may be able to tip the scale enough