Poll: Should Nowell return to the rotation

[winforlose]

7 Wins for Nowell feels like way too many.

Does that make KAT worth 20 wins? ANT 15? Vandy 10?

It’s more about replacing Beasley’s inefficiency with an efficient scorer. I am saying that I think Beasley only has between 7 and 10 good games in him, and more likely 7 than 10. If Beasley has 16 bad games I think the harm he does might cost us 7 winnable games. I can point to at least that many where Beasley has done real damage if not cost us the win. We have some good teams coming up (Griz, 76ers, Cavs, GSW, Bulls, Mavs, and Denver,) and we cannot afford to have a guy who has no positive contribution on an off night except floor spacing. Especially when you have a capable replacement already on your bench.

To your other point it is very hard to quantify wins, especially with good or great players. One way to look at it is how is record without Dlo. Stat muse says we are 5-9 without Dlo. Does that mean if Dlo played in all 9 losses we win every game, of course not. But could we maybe have won half of them, that seems reasonable. But ask yourself, what about the games where Dlo played, took a high volume of shots, and missed them. Would we have been better off for that game without him? On the one hand we only seem to win about 1/3 of our games without him, but on the other when he plays the worst games of the season he makes a negative impact. I bring this up to point out that my 7 game suggestion is not all just Nowell’s production, but also a function of Beasley’s negative impact.

[BlacJacMac]

Yeah...I just don't think it works that way. I don't think replacing a poor player with an "average-ish" one can result in a near 10% increase in wins over a season.

And I assume you're talking about 7 more wins over an 81 game season, and not 7 more over our final 23 games. Because obviously, that would be full-on crazy pants.

[winforlose]

Yeah...I just don't think it works that way. I don't think replacing a poor player with an "average-ish" one can result in a near 10% increase in wins over a season.

And I assume you're talking about 7 more wins over an 81 game season, and not 7 more over our final 23 games. Because obviously, that would be full-on crazy pants.

No I am definitely on the crazy pants route. Again you are missing the point. Beasley takes a huge volume of shots but also is disruptive to the offense. He cannot drive with any kind of consistency. He doesn’t defend well or rebound well. All Beasley does is space the floor and Nowell can do that. 11.4 FGA per game on 37.5% from the floor is toxic. His 2 point percentage is 43.1% and that number is seriously augmented with fast breaks. I think he costs us at least 4 or 5 winnable games by himself if not more. He also has a serious impact on a bunch more. I think we win more games playing literally anyone including Leo over Beasley. Nowell also spaces the floor, and collapses the defense, and gets to the line (which puts opposing players in foul trouble,) and plays nearly the same level defense. Nowell is a better passer and facilitator, and as a bonus is younger. Is it crazy to say the second unit playing significantly better is the difference in winning and losing a close game? Is it crazy to say we will have a lot of close games against good teams? I don’t quite see why my statement is crazy pants?

[BlacJacMac]

Yeah...I just don't think it works that way. I don't think replacing a poor player with an "average-ish" one can result in a near 10% increase in wins over a season.

And I assume you're talking about 7 more wins over an 81 game season, and not 7 more over our final 23 games. Because obviously, that would be full-on crazy pants.

No I am definitely on the crazy pants route. Again you are missing the point. Beasley takes a huge volume of shots but also is disruptive to the offense. He cannot drive with any kind of consistency. He doesn’t defend well or rebound well. All Beasley does is space the floor and Nowell can do that. 11.4 FGA per game on 37.5% from the floor is toxic. His 2 point percentage is 43.1% and that number is seriously augmented with fast breaks. I think he costs us at least 4 or 5 winnable games by himself if not more. He also has a serious impact on a bunch more. I think we win more games playing literally anyone including Leo over Beasley. Nowell also spaces the floor, and collapses the defense, and gets to the line (which puts opposing players in foul trouble,) and plays nearly the same level defense. Nowell is a better passer and facilitator, and as a bonus is younger. Is it crazy to say the second unit playing significantly better is the difference in winning and losing a close game? Is it crazy to say we will have a lot of close games against good teams? I don’t quite see why my statement is crazy pants?

You don't see how thinking Nowell would mean 7 more wins over Beasley over a 23 game stretch is insane?

So Nowell over Beasley for a full season would be like a 25 game swing? Like the difference between a 25 win team and a 50 win one?

I think you seriously, seriously overestimate how much a single (non-superstar) impacts winning and losing.

[BlacJacMac]

"11.4 FGA per game on 37.5% from the floor is toxic. His 2 point percentage is 43.1% and that number is seriously augmented with fast breaks."

I think you need to look deeper.

Beasley is having a poor shooting year. BUT, he takes 72% of his shots from 3 *8.2 of his 11.4).

He's hitting those at 35% (just above league average). But he's hitting 43% through 9 FEB games.

The 2 point% is bad in a vacuum. But he's only averaging three 2PT attempts per game. And he's taking the majority of his 2s inside of 3 feet, where he's at 59%. 59% is pretty bad (only better than PatBev, Okogie and Lea on the team), but it's not costing us multiple games.

[winforlose]

Yeah...I just don't think it works that way. I don't think replacing a poor player with an "average-ish" one can result in a near 10% increase in wins over a season.

And I assume you're talking about 7 more wins over an 81 game season, and not 7 more over our final 23 games. Because obviously, that would be full-on crazy pants.

No I am definitely on the crazy pants route. Again you are missing the point. Beasley takes a huge volume of shots but also is disruptive to the offense. He cannot drive with any kind of consistency. He doesn’t defend well or rebound well. All Beasley does is space the floor and Nowell can do that. 11.4 FGA per game on 37.5% from the floor is toxic. His 2 point percentage is 43.1% and that number is seriously augmented with fast breaks. I think he costs us at least 4 or 5 winnable games by himself if not more. He also has a serious impact on a bunch more. I think we win more games playing literally anyone including Leo over Beasley. Nowell also spaces the floor, and collapses the defense, and gets to the line (which puts opposing players in foul trouble,) and plays nearly the same level defense. Nowell is a better passer and facilitator, and as a bonus is younger. Is it crazy to say the second unit playing significantly better is the difference in winning and losing a close game? Is it crazy to say we will have a lot of close games against good teams? I don’t quite see why my statement is crazy pants?

You don't see how thinking Nowell would mean 7 more wins over Beasley over a 23 game stretch is insane?

So Nowell over Beasley for a full season would be like a 25 game swing? Like the difference between a 25 win team and a 50 win one?

I think you seriously, seriously overestimate how much a single (non-superstar) impacts winning and losing.

You cannot extrapolate like that because in theory it should only matter in close games and we are only likely to be in close games against good or great teams. My point also focuses on the difference in the second unit with a well rounded shot creator in Nowell vs a one dimensional Beasley. It is also worth noting that the majority of our offensive rebounding comes from V8 and KAT and Beasley rarely plays with either. If you assume Beasley will shoot 8 3s per game and hit 36% than you are 2.88 makes per game. Let’s round that up and say 3. In an ideal game Beasley scores 9 points on 8 shots. He plays poor defense, rebounds average or below, does nothing to collapse the defense (though he does space the floor,) and doesn’t often get opposing teams in foul trouble. My point is Beasley is more often than not a liability, whereas Nowell on a bad shooting night can still create for other people and facilitate.

But, for the sake of argument let’s humor you. Let’s say the actual number is 4 games of the next 23 or even 3. What is the margin of error between us getting 6th place and 7th? Can we afford to lose 3 or 4 games that we otherwise could have won? Also you never addressed the other point, which is Beasley’s value is already at an all time low. Between the off court issues (suggesting seriously bad judgment if not worse,) and on court season long shooting slump, do we really think Beasley has a ton of current value that evaporates if we go younger and try to develop Nowell?

[Klomp]

7 Wins for Nowell feels like way too many.

Does that make KAT worth 20 wins? ANT 15? Vandy 10?

It’s more about replacing Beasley’s inefficiency with an efficient scorer. I am saying that I think Beasley only has between 7 and 10 good games in him, and more likely 7 than 10. If Beasley has 16 bad games I think the harm he does might cost us 7 winnable games. I can point to at least that many where Beasley has done real damage if not cost us the win. We have some good teams coming up (Griz, 76ers, Cavs, GSW, Bulls, Mavs, and Denver,) and we cannot afford to have a guy who has no positive contribution on an off night except floor spacing. Especially when you have a capable replacement already on your bench.

To your other point it is very hard to quantify wins, especially with good or great players. One way to look at it is how is record without Dlo. Stat muse says we are 5-9 without Dlo. Does that mean if Dlo played in all 9 losses we win every game, of course not. But could we maybe have won half of them, that seems reasonable. But ask yourself, what about the games where Dlo played, took a high volume of shots, and missed them. Would we have been better off for that game without him? On the one hand we only seem to win about 1/3 of our games without him, but on the other when he plays the worst games of the season he makes a negative impact. I bring this up to point out that my 7 game suggestion is not all just Nowell’s production, but also a function of Beasley’s negative impact.

I think where you've misstepped in your argument is the assumption that Nowell is consistent and efficient. He has had plenty of duds as well, which is why he currently finds himself outside the rotation.

[BlacJacMac]

No I am definitely on the crazy pants route. Again you are missing the point. Beasley takes a huge volume of shots but also is disruptive to the offense. He cannot drive with any kind of consistency. He doesn’t defend well or rebound well. All Beasley does is space the floor and Nowell can do that. 11.4 FGA per game on 37.5% from the floor is toxic. His 2 point percentage is 43.1% and that number is seriously augmented with fast breaks. I think he costs us at least 4 or 5 winnable games by himself if not more. He also has a serious impact on a bunch more. I think we win more games playing literally anyone including Leo over Beasley. Nowell also spaces the floor, and collapses the defense, and gets to the line (which puts opposing players in foul trouble,) and plays nearly the same level defense. Nowell is a better passer and facilitator, and as a bonus is younger. Is it crazy to say the second unit playing significantly better is the difference in winning and losing a close game? Is it crazy to say we will have a lot of close games against good teams? I don’t quite see why my statement is crazy pants?

You don't see how thinking Nowell would mean 7 more wins over Beasley over a 23 game stretch is insane?

So Nowell over Beasley for a full season would be like a 25 game swing? Like the difference between a 25 win team and a 50 win one?

I think you seriously, seriously overestimate how much a single (non-superstar) impacts winning and losing.

You cannot extrapolate like that because in theory it should only matter in close games and we are only likely to be in close games against good or great teams. My point also focuses on the difference in the second unit with a well rounded shot creator in Nowell vs a one dimensional Beasley. It is also worth noting that the majority of our offensive rebounding comes from V8 and KAT and Beasley rarely plays with either. If you assume Beasley will shoot 8 3s per game and hit 36% than you are 2.88 makes per game. Let’s round that up and say 3. In an ideal game Beasley scores 9 points on 8 shots. He plays poor defense, rebounds average or below, does nothing to collapse the defense (though he does space the floor,) and doesn’t often get opposing teams in foul trouble. My point is Beasley is more often than not a liability, whereas Nowell on a bad shooting night can still create for other people and facilitate.

But, for the sake of argument let’s humor you. Let’s say the actual number is 4 games of the next 23 or even 3. What is the margin of error between us getting 6th place and 7th? Can we afford to lose 3 or 4 games that we otherwise could have won? Also you never addressed the other point, which is Beasley’s value is already at an all time low. Between the off court issues (suggesting seriously bad judgment if not worse,) and on court season long shooting slump, do we really think Beasley has a ton of current value that evaporates if we go younger and try to develop Nowell?

I just don't buy it.

I don't believe any of your premise - that Beasley is actively costing us games, or that Nowell can actively win them. At least not nearly in the quantity that you propose.

I'm sure if you toss this theory up on Canis, you'll get plenty of pushback from people a lot smarter than me.

[BlacJacMac]

7 Wins for Nowell feels like way too many.

Does that make KAT worth 20 wins? ANT 15? Vandy 10?

It’s more about replacing Beasley’s inefficiency with an efficient scorer. I am saying that I think Beasley only has between 7 and 10 good games in him, and more likely 7 than 10. If Beasley has 16 bad games I think the harm he does might cost us 7 winnable games. I can point to at least that many where Beasley has done real damage if not cost us the win. We have some good teams coming up (Griz, 76ers, Cavs, GSW, Bulls, Mavs, and Denver,) and we cannot afford to have a guy who has no positive contribution on an off night except floor spacing. Especially when you have a capable replacement already on your bench.

To your other point it is very hard to quantify wins, especially with good or great players. One way to look at it is how is record without Dlo. Stat muse says we are 5-9 without Dlo. Does that mean if Dlo played in all 9 losses we win every game, of course not. But could we maybe have won half of them, that seems reasonable. But ask yourself, what about the games where Dlo played, took a high volume of shots, and missed them. Would we have been better off for that game without him? On the one hand we only seem to win about 1/3 of our games without him, but on the other when he plays the worst games of the season he makes a negative impact. I bring this up to point out that my 7 game suggestion is not all just Nowell’s production, but also a function of Beasley’s negative impact.

I think where you've misstepped in your argument is the assumption that Nowell is consistent and efficient. He has had plenty of duds as well, which is why he currently finds himself outside the rotation.

Also a very good point.

[winforlose]

7 Wins for Nowell feels like way too many.

Does that make KAT worth 20 wins? ANT 15? Vandy 10?

It’s more about replacing Beasley’s inefficiency with an efficient scorer. I am saying that I think Beasley only has between 7 and 10 good games in him, and more likely 7 than 10. If Beasley has 16 bad games I think the harm he does might cost us 7 winnable games. I can point to at least that many where Beasley has done real damage if not cost us the win. We have some good teams coming up (Griz, 76ers, Cavs, GSW, Bulls, Mavs, and Denver,) and we cannot afford to have a guy who has no positive contribution on an off night except floor spacing. Especially when you have a capable replacement already on your bench.

To your other point it is very hard to quantify wins, especially with good or great players. One way to look at it is how is record without Dlo. Stat muse says we are 5-9 without Dlo. Does that mean if Dlo played in all 9 losses we win every game, of course not. But could we maybe have won half of them, that seems reasonable. But ask yourself, what about the games where Dlo played, took a high volume of shots, and missed them. Would we have been better off for that game without him? On the one hand we only seem to win about 1/3 of our games without him, but on the other when he plays the worst games of the season he makes a negative impact. I bring this up to point out that my 7 game suggestion is not all just Nowell’s production, but also a function of Beasley’s negative impact.

I think where you've misstepped in your argument is the assumption that Nowell is consistent and efficient. He has had plenty of duds as well, which is why he currently finds himself outside the rotation.

A fair point. But also worth noting that when Nowell has a bad shooting night he still gives good passing, the ability to create for others via the drive and kick, and getting to the line more (which again puts the other team in foul trouble.) For context Nowell has shot 55 FTA this season compare to Beasley’s 42. According to Siri Nowell has played 612 minutes and 34 seconds, whereas Beasley has played 1,495 minutes. Beasley has also shot technical free throws on multiple occasions whereas I cannot remember Nowell taking many. Nowell is averaging 7.7 PPG on 6.3 FGA per game. Beasley is averaging 11.9 PPG on 11.4 FGA. Rounded that means Nowell scores 1.22 points per shot, whereas Beasley scores 1.05 points per shot. If you increase Nowell’s shots to 11.4 per game and keep the same rate you get 13.9 PPG. You can argue 2 points isn’t a big deal in the scope of a game and you would be correct. But, consider the impact of 46.6% from the field vs 37.5%. Nowell is a different kind of threat which requires a considerable defensive effort to contain. The 3 level scoring vs 1 level scoring. Finally Nowell has 87 assists to Beasley’s 86 despite playing less than half his minutes.

[old school 34]

It’s more about replacing Beasley’s inefficiency with an efficient scorer. I am saying that I think Beasley only has between 7 and 10 good games in him, and more likely 7 than 10. If Beasley has 16 bad games I think the harm he does might cost us 7 winnable games. I can point to at least that many where Beasley has done real damage if not cost us the win. We have some good teams coming up (Griz, 76ers, Cavs, GSW, Bulls, Mavs, and Denver,) and we cannot afford to have a guy who has no positive contribution on an off night except floor spacing. Especially when you have a capable replacement already on your bench.

To your other point it is very hard to quantify wins, especially with good or great players. One way to look at it is how is record without Dlo. Stat muse says we are 5-9 without Dlo. Does that mean if Dlo played in all 9 losses we win every game, of course not. But could we maybe have won half of them, that seems reasonable. But ask yourself, what about the games where Dlo played, took a high volume of shots, and missed them. Would we have been better off for that game without him? On the one hand we only seem to win about 1/3 of our games without him, but on the other when he plays the worst games of the season he makes a negative impact. I bring this up to point out that my 7 game suggestion is not all just Nowell’s production, but also a function of Beasley’s negative impact.

I think where you've misstepped in your argument is the assumption that Nowell is consistent and efficient. He has had plenty of duds as well, which is why he currently finds himself outside the rotation.

A fair point. But also worth noting that when Nowell has a bad shooting night he still gives good passing, the ability to create for others via the drive and kick, and getting to the line more (which again puts the other team in foul trouble.) For context Nowell has shot 55 FTA this season compare to Beasley’s 42. According to Siri Nowell has played 612 minutes and 34 seconds, whereas Beasley has played 1,495 minutes. Beasley has also shot technical free throws on multiple occasions whereas I cannot remember Nowell taking many. Nowell is averaging 7.7 PPG on 6.3 FGA per game. Beasley is averaging 11.9 PPG on 11.4 FGA. Rounded that means Nowell scores 1.22 points per shot, whereas Beasley scores 1.05 points per shot. If you increase Nowell’s shots to 11.4 per game and keep the same rate you get 13.9 PPG. You can argue 2 points isn’t a big deal in the scope of a game and you would be correct. But, consider the impact of 46.6% from the field vs 37.5%. Nowell is a different kind of threat which requires a considerable defensive effort to contain. The 3 level scoring vs 1 level scoring. Finally Nowell has 87 assists to Beasley’s 86 despite playing less than half his minutes.

Good back & forth....I feel like I'm at those same frustration levels at times with Beasley when he's having that 0 for 7 night...but then I have to breathe & relax a bit...lol.

Cause after calmed down...the other points come back on this argument. And it comes back to an argument coaches have gone back & forth on for a long time....but they both check some of the same boxes:

Same size/length/athleticism

Both no good on D

Both inconsistent

Offensively, one has 1 really good skill...but the other okay at alot of stuff but elite at nothing

You say Nowell can space the floor because he's hitting 37%....even though he's shooting a better % technically...he still doesn't create the same space that Beasley does...can't necessarily quantify that directly but it's an eye test thing.

So when you have guys this close, it really comes down to who fits best with the other 4. And I believe Finch just really believes in that spacing gravity that Beasley provides at least for this year.

And at the end of the day, not sure that Finch thinks it's really that close as even I'd say? As Nowell, really got into the rotation @ JMac's expense & then again lost his spot in favor of JMac....so while I feel he seems to be more SG than PG....& of course he's a combo guy ultimately but when he gets his chance it's more when JMac is struggling vs Beasley?

Sent from my SM-G973U using RealGM mobile app

[winforlose]

I think where you've misstepped in your argument is the assumption that Nowell is consistent and efficient. He has had plenty of duds as well, which is why he currently finds himself outside the rotation.

A fair point. But also worth noting that when Nowell has a bad shooting night he still gives good passing, the ability to create for others via the drive and kick, and getting to the line more (which again puts the other team in foul trouble.) For context Nowell has shot 55 FTA this season compare to Beasley’s 42. According to Siri Nowell has played 612 minutes and 34 seconds, whereas Beasley has played 1,495 minutes. Beasley has also shot technical free throws on multiple occasions whereas I cannot remember Nowell taking many. Nowell is averaging 7.7 PPG on 6.3 FGA per game. Beasley is averaging 11.9 PPG on 11.4 FGA. Rounded that means Nowell scores 1.22 points per shot, whereas Beasley scores 1.05 points per shot. If you increase Nowell’s shots to 11.4 per game and keep the same rate you get 13.9 PPG. You can argue 2 points isn’t a big deal in the scope of a game and you would be correct. But, consider the impact of 46.6% from the field vs 37.5%. Nowell is a different kind of threat which requires a considerable defensive effort to contain. The 3 level scoring vs 1 level scoring. Finally Nowell has 87 assists to Beasley’s 86 despite playing less than half his minutes.

Good back & forth....I feel like I'm at those same frustration levels at times with Beasley when he's having that 0 for 7 night...but then I have to breathe & relax a bit...lol.

Cause after calmed down...the other points come back on this argument. And it comes back to an argument coaches have gone back & forth on for a long time....but they both check some of the same boxes:

Same size/length/athleticism

Both no good on D

Both inconsistent

Offensively, one has 1 really good skill...but the other okay at alot of stuff but elite at nothing

You say Nowell can space the floor because he's hitting 37%....even though he's shooting a better % technically...he still doesn't create the same space that Beasley does...can't necessarily quantify that directly but it's an eye test thing.

So when you have guys this close, it really comes down to who fits best with the other 4. And I believe Finch just really believes in that spacing gravity that Beasley provides at least for this year.

And at the end of the day, not sure that Finch thinks it's really that close as even I'd say? As Nowell, really got into the rotation @ JMac's expense & then again lost his spot in favor of JMac....so while I feel he seems to be more SG than PG....& of course he's a combo guy ultimately but when he gets his chance it's more when JMac is struggling vs Beasley?

Sent from my SM-G973U using RealGM mobile app

Before the deadline I would have told you it was about keeping Beasley’s value up. He had a hot streak for a while and it looked like he might be rounding back into form. But look at his last few games. The thing you never mentioned is what happens on the off nights. On an off night for Beasley he misses 10 or 11 shots and gives you nothing else. On an off night for Nowell he still moves the ball well and gets guys open by breaking down the defense. Also with Beasley having almost 2.5 times the minutes Nowell has this season it is hard to say what Nowell would look like with a real chance. The thing that keeps giving my pause is Beasley costs 15 mil and it is hard to bench 15 mil. But, as I said above, if Nowell wins you even 3 or 4 more games than Beasley of the next 23 does it make the change worth it?

[Klomp]

You say Nowell can space the floor because he's hitting 37%....even though he's shooting a better % technically...he still doesn't create the same space that Beasley does...can't necessarily quantify that directly but it's an eye test thing.

So when you have guys this close, it really comes down to who fits best with the other 4. And I believe Finch just really believes in that spacing gravity that Beasley provides at least for this year.

This right here is the key difference between Beasley and Nowell.

When Beasley has a bad game (below 30%), the Timberwolves are 8-9.'
When Beasley has an average night shooting (30-50%), the Wolves are 16-13.
When Beasley has a great game shooting (above 50%), the Wolves are 7-6.

Why don't his percentages affect win percentages that much? Because whether or not the shots go in, he still has a strong gravity on the floor that someone like Nowell just doesn't have yet. Defenses don't run the same speed to every shooter. Some players just affect the game more just by being out there. That's the importance of Beasley, especially for this second unit.

[winforlose]

You say Nowell can space the floor because he's hitting 37%....even though he's shooting a better % technically...he still doesn't create the same space that Beasley does...can't necessarily quantify that directly but it's an eye test thing.

So when you have guys this close, it really comes down to who fits best with the other 4. And I believe Finch just really believes in that spacing gravity that Beasley provides at least for this year.

This right here is the key difference between Beasley and Nowell.

When Beasley has a bad game (below 30%), the Timberwolves are 8-9.'
When Beasley has an average night shooting (30-50%), the Wolves are 16-13.
When Beasley has a great game shooting (above 50%), the Wolves are 7-6.

Why don't his percentages affect win percentages that much? Because whether or not the shots go in, he still has a strong gravity on the floor that someone like Nowell just doesn't have yet. Defenses don't run the same speed to every shooter. Some players just affect the game more just by being out there. That's the importance of Beasley, especially for this second unit.

Hard to respond without doing a deep dive on the data. But, some initial thoughts.

1. Nowell may not have the same “gravity” but he is better at collapsing the defense off the drive and kicking out to open shooters at multiple levels. The natural follow up question is who is he kicking out to, and the answer is MCD, Naz, and TP. Are they reliable enough when given the open 3 that you would rather they take it than Beasley take a semi open 3 (as you said the defense works hard to contest Beasley,) that is a question for each fan to answer.

2. The beginning of the season is a very different time than the middle or end of the season. In the beginning every team is scrambling trying to fit their schemes and get things together. In the middle fatigue is a major factor and some teams start to come to grips with the fact that they will not make the playoffs while others start to dig in and make a push. By the end everyone knows who they are what they are trying to accomplish and in the case of the playoff teams it’s all about that final rally. I mention this because to say Beasley doesn’t have effect win percentages is a tough claim and your data while useful doesn’t factor a lot of things in. For example, minutes, shots against the total, who was available, when in the season was it, ect… similarly it is hard to evaluate Nowell by the numbers when there are plenty of games where he plays a few minutes here or a part of a quarter there. Without significant play time and a consistent spot in the rotation the data is less predictive.

3. I agree we badly need shooting. I agree that when volume gets high enough expectations need to be set. But, the hallmark of playoff teams is consistency, and Beasley is inconsistent. You can argue the same it true of Nowell, but I would counter by saying not to the same extent. The only way Nowell can be playoff ready is to get sustained minutes during these last 23 games. If JMAC and his facilitating is necessary to the second unit and Nowell is too small to play 3-5 then that only leaves the 2. Would you really rather have an inconsistent one dimensional player than take a chance on a more consistent 3 level player?

[Dalvin]

Sorry if this is not the right place to post this. But, Winforlose reminds me of a more subdued Jedzz. May be the same person, may be not. But hey, glad to see winforlose have that passion for the team!

I do agree that Nowell should return to the rotation and I think Finch is just doing it by feel (or whatever metrics he uses) on a game to game basis. And with the results that has Finch has done for the team, I trust his judgment. Here's to hoping that if Nowell is really the better option than Beasley, Nowell will organically break through in the rotation.

[winforlose]

Sorry if this is not the right place to post this. But, Winforlose reminds me of a more subdued Jedzz. May be the same person, may be not. But hey, glad to see winforlose have that passion for the team!

I do agree that Nowell should return to the rotation and I think Finch is just doing it by feel (or whatever metrics he uses) on a game to game basis. And with the results that has Finch has done for the team, I trust his judgment. Here's to hoping that if Nowell is really the better option than Beasley, Nowell will organically break through in the rotation.

Go to the JMAC thread and Nowell thread you will see me and Jed having long arguments about JMAC and seeing eye to eye on Nowell’s potential. The big difference is that Jed believed very strongly in JMAC and his potential but my advocacy of Nowell in the lineup is more about getting Beasley out of it. Don’t get me wrong I like Nowell and think his future is bright, but I cannot stand a 3 point specialist who is so terribly inconsistent while also being totally one dimensional. If he had any other talent beside 3 point shooting I could maybe get behind Beasley, but 9 points on 10 shots is a bad night. 12 points on 11 shots is 36.36% but is that a good efficiency that we should strive for? With V8 and KAT off the floor how likely are we to get the rebound? I want this team to get somewhere, and I believe that real playoff experience is essential to that process. I just don’t think Beasley has enough good games left in him to help us get to 6. I think Nowell given time and consistent use might. Could I be wrong, of course. But I feel strongly it is worth the risk.

[old school 34]

Sorry if this is not the right place to post this. But, Winforlose reminds me of a more subdued Jedzz. May be the same person, may be not. But hey, glad to see winforlose have that passion for the team!

I do agree that Nowell should return to the rotation and I think Finch is just doing it by feel (or whatever metrics he uses) on a game to game basis. And with the results that has Finch has done for the team, I trust his judgment. Here's to hoping that if Nowell is really the better option than Beasley, Nowell will organically break through in the rotation.

Go to the JMAC thread and Nowell thread you will see me and Jed having long arguments about JMAC and seeing eye to eye on Nowell’s potential. The big difference is that Jed believed very strongly in JMAC and his potential but my advocacy of Nowell in the lineup is more about getting Beasley out of it. Don’t get me wrong I like Nowell and think his future is bright, but I cannot stand a 3 point specialist who is so terribly inconsistent while also being totally one dimensional. If he had any other talent beside 3 point shooting I could maybe get behind Beasley, but 9 points on 10 shots is a bad night. 12 points on 11 shots is 36.36% but is that a good efficiency that we should strive for? With V8 and KAT off the floor how likely are we to get the rebound? I want this team to get somewhere, and I believe that real playoff experience is essential to that process. I just don’t think Beasley has enough good games left in him to help us get to 6. I think Nowell given time and consistent use might. Could I be wrong, of course. But I feel strongly it is worth the risk.

Hey, I've enjoyed the debate & something that hasn't turned into name calling & derailed the thread. And just to be clear, I'm in complete agreement that some bench upgrades are needed & necessary for us to take the next step....and I like Nowell's game as well...the only place we really disagree is to whether he truly is an upgrade? And for this season, we will need to rely on Finch feeling his way thru it....& in the offseason can a few bench guys be consolidated into 1 bench upgrade & Nowell backfills the hole...I'm all in!

And not to bunny trail too much, but I could see a very similar deal happening with Naz (& falling out of the rotation) if say the long term bench 3 & 4 remains Prince & Jaden....then what they really need is a rebounding defensive 5. Naz has some skill to offer but a bad fit in that bench front line especially with Jaden needing to be the primary POA defender most cases.

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[winforlose]

Sorry if this is not the right place to post this. But, Winforlose reminds me of a more subdued Jedzz. May be the same person, may be not. But hey, glad to see winforlose have that passion for the team!

I do agree that Nowell should return to the rotation and I think Finch is just doing it by feel (or whatever metrics he uses) on a game to game basis. And with the results that has Finch has done for the team, I trust his judgment. Here's to hoping that if Nowell is really the better option than Beasley, Nowell will organically break through in the rotation.

Go to the JMAC thread and Nowell thread you will see me and Jed having long arguments about JMAC and seeing eye to eye on Nowell’s potential. The big difference is that Jed believed very strongly in JMAC and his potential but my advocacy of Nowell in the lineup is more about getting Beasley out of it. Don’t get me wrong I like Nowell and think his future is bright, but I cannot stand a 3 point specialist who is so terribly inconsistent while also being totally one dimensional. If he had any other talent beside 3 point shooting I could maybe get behind Beasley, but 9 points on 10 shots is a bad night. 12 points on 11 shots is 36.36% but is that a good efficiency that we should strive for? With V8 and KAT off the floor how likely are we to get the rebound? I want this team to get somewhere, and I believe that real playoff experience is essential to that process. I just don’t think Beasley has enough good games left in him to help us get to 6. I think Nowell given time and consistent use might. Could I be wrong, of course. But I feel strongly it is worth the risk.

Hey, I've enjoyed the debate & something that hasn't turned into name calling & derailed the thread. And just to be clear, I'm in complete agreement that some bench upgrades are needed & necessary for us to take the next step....and I like Nowell's game as well...the only place we really disagree is to whether he truly is an upgrade? And for this season, we will need to rely on Finch feeling his way thru it....& in the offseason can a few bench guys be consolidated into 1 bench upgrade & Nowell backfills the hole...I'm all in!

And not to bunny trail too much, but I could see a very similar deal happening with Naz (& falling out of the rotation) if say the long term bench 3 & 4 remains Prince & Jaden....then what they really need is a rebounding defensive 5. Naz has some skill to offer but a bad fit in that bench front line especially with Jaden needing to be the primary POA defender most cases.

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When you say long term do you mean this season or beyond? I would be surprised if Prince is re-signed in the off season. We need a legit backup 4 behind V8 and a bigger C behind KAT. Whether we draft one of the two or trade for both remains to be seen. I do think Naz and Beasley move on draft night and I think TP either walks or signs and trades at the very end to keep his bird rights. Not sure who would want him.

[old school 34]

Go to the JMAC thread and Nowell thread you will see me and Jed having long arguments about JMAC and seeing eye to eye on Nowell’s potential. The big difference is that Jed believed very strongly in JMAC and his potential but my advocacy of Nowell in the lineup is more about getting Beasley out of it. Don’t get me wrong I like Nowell and think his future is bright, but I cannot stand a 3 point specialist who is so terribly inconsistent while also being totally one dimensional. If he had any other talent beside 3 point shooting I could maybe get behind Beasley, but 9 points on 10 shots is a bad night. 12 points on 11 shots is 36.36% but is that a good efficiency that we should strive for? With V8 and KAT off the floor how likely are we to get the rebound? I want this team to get somewhere, and I believe that real playoff experience is essential to that process. I just don’t think Beasley has enough good games left in him to help us get to 6. I think Nowell given time and consistent use might. Could I be wrong, of course. But I feel strongly it is worth the risk.

Hey, I've enjoyed the debate & something that hasn't turned into name calling & derailed the thread. And just to be clear, I'm in complete agreement that some bench upgrades are needed & necessary for us to take the next step....and I like Nowell's game as well...the only place we really disagree is to whether he truly is an upgrade? And for this season, we will need to rely on Finch feeling his way thru it....& in the offseason can a few bench guys be consolidated into 1 bench upgrade & Nowell backfills the hole...I'm all in!

And not to bunny trail too much, but I could see a very similar deal happening with Naz (& falling out of the rotation) if say the long term bench 3 & 4 remains Prince & Jaden....then what they really need is a rebounding defensive 5. Naz has some skill to offer but a bad fit in that bench front line especially with Jaden needing to be the primary POA defender most cases.

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When you say long term do you mean this season or beyond? I would be surprised if Prince is re-signed in the off season. We need a legit backup 4 behind V8 and a bigger C behind KAT. Whether we draft one of the two or trade for both remains to be seen. I do think Naz and Beasley move on draft night and I think TP either walks or signs and trades at the very end to keep his bird rights. Not sure who would want him.

I feel since he wasn't moved at the trade deadline....there has to be a certain % chance that he's resigned again? Better than 50/50...maybe hard to put a % on it, but wouldn't be shocked either way? I think they really value his versatility & vet leadership. And in trying to read the tea leaves with him....he might be okay staying in one spot for a bit...especially on a team that will be playoff bound for a bit. He'll take a significant pay cut I imagine, and ideally to your point maybe he isn't for certain in your rotation (or he starts there with the plan of a rookie eventually replacing him)...but $6 to $8 mil...sure seems like an overpay when he's not playing....but as soon as someone goes down & he can immediately jump into a rotation spot with no dropoff...not something we've really had (& your signing him with bird rights when your going to be relatively a ways under the lux--w/out a significant trade?).

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[winforlose]

Hey, I've enjoyed the debate & something that hasn't turned into name calling & derailed the thread. And just to be clear, I'm in complete agreement that some bench upgrades are needed & necessary for us to take the next step....and I like Nowell's game as well...the only place we really disagree is to whether he truly is an upgrade? And for this season, we will need to rely on Finch feeling his way thru it....& in the offseason can a few bench guys be consolidated into 1 bench upgrade & Nowell backfills the hole...I'm all in!

And not to bunny trail too much, but I could see a very similar deal happening with Naz (& falling out of the rotation) if say the long term bench 3 & 4 remains Prince & Jaden....then what they really need is a rebounding defensive 5. Naz has some skill to offer but a bad fit in that bench front line especially with Jaden needing to be the primary POA defender most cases.

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When you say long term do you mean this season or beyond? I would be surprised if Prince is re-signed in the off season. We need a legit backup 4 behind V8 and a bigger C behind KAT. Whether we draft one of the two or trade for both remains to be seen. I do think Naz and Beasley move on draft night and I think TP either walks or signs and trades at the very end to keep his bird rights. Not sure who would want him.

I feel since he wasn't moved at the trade deadline....there has to be a certain % chance that he's resigned again? Better than 50/50...maybe hard to put a % on it, but wouldn't be shocked either way? I think they really value his versatility & vet leadership. And in trying to read the tea leaves with him....he might be okay staying in one spot for a bit...especially on a team that will be playoff bound for a bit. He'll take a significant pay cut I imagine, and ideally to your point maybe he isn't for certain in your rotation (or he starts there with the plan of a rookie eventually replacing him)...but $6 to $8 mil...sure seems like an overpay when he's not playing....but as soon as someone goes down & he can immediately jump into a rotation spot with no dropoff...not something we've really had (& your signing him with bird rights when your going to be relatively a ways under the lux--w/out a significant trade?).

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Two things shocked me last night. One was Beasley having that efficient a game. That was the 2019-2020 Beasley we traded for. I said he had between 7 and 10 good games left and I hope I underestimated him, but time will tell. The second was how bad we were at defensive rebounding. There is bottom of the league and then there is giving up 26 offensive rebounds in a single game. That we won a game when the opposing team got 14 more offensive rebounds is a miracle. Part of that number is our technique or lack there of, but the other part is our lack of size. We need a size boost at backup PF and C. Prince really has no place at PF. He is 6’7 220lb and plays like a SF. MCD is your primary backup SF and 6th man. Prince would be the 11th man and we just cannot afford 8 million to the 11th man. I just don’t see it. There are plenty of other vets who would take 4-5 and provide leadership.