Dilly or Dejounte

[KGdaBom]

We would've had to make the trade for #8 and then send that pick to Atlanta for them to even listen.

The salary match was the big problem.

Trading for 8 and forwarding to Atlanta sounds right. Then figure out how to make the salary match. I don't know how we could have done that.

We couldn't without giving up Towns or McDaniels.

The only way to get there without giving up either of them (or Ant or Rudy) would be Conley + Naz + NAW. And Conley has a no-trade clause.

If that's the case we had no realistic way of getting it done. Thanks for the information.

[shrink]

We’re a second apron team, and that started right after our final playoff game.

We can’t trade McDaniels for Dejounte, because we can’t take back more salary than we send out.

We can’t trade Conley + Naz + NAW because we can’t aggregate salary to match.

The only three players that make more the DeJounte are Ant, Gobert and KAT.

——

Dejounte is certainly a better player defensively. However, Dillingham is locked into rookie scale for the next four years, so we can afford to keep him. He has the upside to be great.

Sorry but this incorrect. If it were correct we could not trade the 2031 1st as it is 7 years out. We will not be a 2nd apron team until we actually cross the apron. I need to see the numbers to confirm, but I think that might be when we sign the rookies.

No, that restriction starts next year. “Finish the 2024-25 season over the second apron”

I was with you though when the trade went down, so I had to double-check. Fortunately, Tim Connelly read the fine print.

Read on Twitter

[winforlose]

We’re a second apron team, and that started right after our final playoff game.

We can’t trade McDaniels for Dejounte, because we can’t take back more salary than we send out.

We can’t trade Conley + Naz + NAW because we can’t aggregate salary to match.

The only three players that make more the DeJounte are Ant, Gobert and KAT.

——

Dejounte is certainly a better player defensively. However, Dillingham is locked into rookie scale for the next four years, so we can afford to keep him. He has the upside to be great.

Sorry but this incorrect. If it were correct we could not trade the 2031 1st as it is 7 years out. We will not be a 2nd apron team until we actually cross the apron. I need to see the numbers to confirm, but I think that might be when we sign the rookies.

No, that restriction starts next year. “Finish the 2024-25 season over the second apron”

I was with you though when the trade went down, so I had to double-check. Fortunately, Tim Connelly read the fine print.

Read on Twitter

Nice catch. That one really snuck right by me

[BlacJacMac]

Didn’t Marks himself say we had a window to operate as a non 2nd apron team up until the season started (which is after the draft)?

[KGdaBom]

Didn’t Marks himself say we had a window to operate as a non 2nd apron team up until the season started (which is after the draft)?

Aren't aprons and luxury taxes determined on the final day of the season? I'm never going to even try to be a capologist.

[shrink]

Didn’t Marks himself say we had a window to operate as a non 2nd apron team up until the season started (which is after the draft)?

Aren't aprons and luxury taxes determined on the final day of the season? I'm never going to even try to be a capologist.

Only luxury taxes are determined the final day of the regular season.

If Marks has said that, I’d trust him - I didn’t see that. As I have been told by a pretty reliable source, the latest CBA (which was designed to shut down excessive spending) closed the loophole of the gap between the end of a season and the start of a new one.

[BlacJacMac]

Didn’t Marks himself say we had a window to operate as a non 2nd apron team up until the season started (which is after the draft)?

Aren't aprons and luxury taxes determined on the final day of the season? I'm never going to even try to be a capologist.

Only luxury taxes are determined the final day of the regular season.

If Marks has said that, I’d trust him - I didn’t see that. As I have been told by a pretty reliable source, the latest CBA (which was designed to shut down excessive spending) closed the loophole of the gap between the end of a season and the start of a new one.

From Marks last week:

CBA impact: There are no restrictions on the Timberwolves prior to July 1. The $189.6 million second apron for next season, however, will get triggered if Minnesota takes back more money in a trade, aggregate contracts, uses its $4 million trade exception or sends out cash. The Wolves are a projected $6.6 million over the second apron. Minnesota also does not have access to the $5.1 million tax midlevel exception and cannot acquire a player in a sign-and-trade.

www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/40286276/nba-free-agency-2024-priorities-player-needs-30-teams-draft-outlook#min

But...he updated it today to now read:

CBA impact: The Timberwolves are over the second apron. They are not allowed to take back more money in a trade, aggregate contracts and send out cash.

So either he was wrong last week, or something changed post-draft (could it be the cap holds for our draft picks?)

[vtime]

You could’ve done Jaden and Naz for Dejounte + filler. The fan base would’ve pulled a mutiny. But you could’ve done it sometime this week.

[younggunsmn]

We’re a second apron team, and that started right after our final playoff game.

We can’t trade McDaniels for Dejounte, because we can’t take back more salary than we send out.

We can’t trade Conley + Naz + NAW because we can’t aggregate salary to match.

The only three players that make more the DeJounte are Ant, Gobert and KAT.

——

Dejounte is certainly a better player defensively. However, Dillingham is locked into rookie scale for the next four years, so we can afford to keep him. He has the upside to be great.

Sorry but this incorrect. If it were correct we could not trade the 2031 1st as it is 7 years out. We will not be a 2nd apron team until we actually cross the apron. I need to see the numbers to confirm, but I think that might be when we sign the rookies.

No, that restriction starts next year. “Finish the 2024-25 season over the second apron”

I was with you though when the trade went down, so I had to double-check. Fortunately, Tim Connelly read the fine print.

Read on Twitter

Shrink is correct. The combination of these two restrictions for 2nd apron teams:
1. Cannot add salary in a trade
2. Cannot aggregate contracts
Means that it would have to be KAT, Ant, or Gobert for purposes of salary matching to take back Dejounte.

Even if we were somehow currently just a little under the 2nd apron at the moment of trade, we are functionally a 2nd apron team anwyway because any trade where salary is exchanged hardcaps us at the 2nd apron level, making it impossible for us to go over.
And there is no way to field this roster without going over the 2nd apron.

Since Hawks also were determined to reduce salary in a Murray trade, they likely aren't taking KAT or Gobert either.
Trade would have to have been KAT or Gobert going to a 3rd team, Murray coming here, and assets from 3rd team going to Hawks.

All that aside, Murray>>>>Dillingham right now with regards to who is the better player.
Murray is proven. Dillingham is i still a huge question mark, could turn into a good player or outright bust.
If you told me today Dillingham would turn into a Dejounte Murray level player in the next 4 years, I would be absolutely ecstatic.

Since we are win now, Murray would have been better for our team right now, but since there is no way to add him without sending out KAT or Gobert, trading for Dillingham probably raises the ceiling of our team more for next year.

If we could have done something where say we sent KAT to the Nets for Finney-Smith, Murray, and a ton of picks with a few of those going to Atlanta, it would have been mighty tempting.
But with the Nets going into full rebuild that's probably off the table now.

[younggunsmn]

Good catch on the draft pick trading restriction functionally not beginning until next offseason because of the language "finish the season".
Salary matching restrictions for trades started the day after the season ended though, since salary matching is computed on current levels of spending.

This draft was our last chance to trade 1st round picks way out in the future for current picks, so it was an arrow that was going to disappear from TC's quiver.
He could have used that pick to go after a current player, but the salary matching and aggregation issues of being a 2nd apron team narrow those possibilities considerably.

[younggunsmn]

Also, next offseason, if we want to trade KAT for a purely draft pick based return to duck back under the luxury tax, adding Dillingham and his rookie scale deal makes that much more realistic, and we could possibly even bring back Naz and NAW and stay under the 2nd apron.

Would also possibly allow us to move on from Gobert in '25 with a core of Ant/KAT/Jaden and Dilly, and possibly even Naz.

IMHO this supertax thing is a one year deal barring a finals appearance, maybe not even then.
IF the AROD/Lore group wins out in the ownership fight they might be stuck with the entire luxury tax bill next June.

Which makes Glen running up a big tax bill while he still has control of the team a kind of under the radar way of poison pilling the sale of the team..

[winforlose]

Also, next offseason, if we want to trade KAT for a purely draft pick based return to duck back under the luxury tax, adding Dillingham and his rookie scale deal makes that much more realistic, and we could possibly even bring back Naz and NAW and stay under the 2nd apron.

Would also possibly allow us to move on from Gobert in '25 with a core of Ant/KAT/Jaden and Dilly, and possibly even Naz.

IMHO this supertax thing is a one year deal barring a finals appearance, maybe not even then.
IF the AROD/Lore group wins out in the ownership fight they might be stuck with the entire luxury tax bill next June.

Which makes Glen running up a big tax bill while he still has control of the team a kind of under the radar way of poison pilling the sale of the team..

That is an interesting take on a poison pill. So to be clear, if the Wolves don’t win the championship then Glen is the ******* who stuck them with 80% of a large tax bill but a ton of extra profit that far exceeds the 80%. Or in the alternative they do win the championship which further increases their value and they get the credit? Or does that rest entirely with Glen for stopping them? Not to mention the fact that new ownership can always sue Glen for the damages incurred by denying them control in a timely manner. Your argument fails on many levels.

Trading KAT for salary dump is the kind of move you make if your goal is to lose Ant. You don’t go from contending to not contending simply for money and ask a superstar to go along for the ride. I also strongly suspect that a KAT salary dump loses you TC. We are either perennial losers who don’t want to spend what it takes to compete, or we are contenders who spend what it takes. You want proof, look at the teams over the 2nd apron and ask yourself how many of them are in contention talks?

[younggunsmn]

Also, next offseason, if we want to trade KAT for a purely draft pick based return to duck back under the luxury tax, adding Dillingham and his rookie scale deal makes that much more realistic, and we could possibly even bring back Naz and NAW and stay under the 2nd apron.

Would also possibly allow us to move on from Gobert in '25 with a core of Ant/KAT/Jaden and Dilly, and possibly even Naz.

IMHO this supertax thing is a one year deal barring a finals appearance, maybe not even then.
IF the AROD/Lore group wins out in the ownership fight they might be stuck with the entire luxury tax bill next June.

Which makes Glen running up a big tax bill while he still has control of the team a kind of under the radar way of poison pilling the sale of the team..

That is an interesting take on a poison pill. So to be clear, if the Wolves don’t win the championship then Glen is the ******* who stuck them with 80% of a large tax bill but a ton of extra profit that far exceeds the 80%. Or in the alternative they do win the championship which further increases their value and they get the credit? Or does that rest entirely with Glen for stopping them? Not to mention the fact that new ownership can always sue Glen for the damages incurred by denying them control in a timely manner. Your argument fails on many levels.

Trading KAT for salary dump is the kind of move you make if your goal is to lose Ant. You don’t go from contending to not contending simply for money and ask a superstar to go along for the ride. I also strongly suspect that a KAT salary dump loses you TC. We are either perennial losers who don’t want to spend what it takes to compete, or we are contenders who spend what it takes. You want proof, look at the teams over the 2nd apron and ask yourself how many of them are in contention talks?

It will be 100% of the bill since they have an option that expires next year (March i think? not 100%) to buy out Glen's last 20%.
SInce they are so cash poor already, a huge tax bill is pretty significant.

There's nothing illegal about Glen running up a big tax bill, and Lore and Arod are not publicly complaining about it.
But it's to Glen's advantage because it makes the purchase of the team more expensive for people he doesnt want to sell to.
I'm just saying Glen being willing to run up a huge luxury tax bill for the coming season isn't 100% him being a good guy.
It's actually quite out of character.

Possibility 1: Glene wins the dispute or legal battle drags out past next june
Glen has cash to pay the big tax bill already from the inital partial sale.
Lore and Arod are forced to finance their share of big financial losses.
Possibility 2: Lore and Arod win the disupte before the tax bill is due.
Lore and Arod are forced to finance even bigger losses shortly after assuming control of team, as do their other investors.

Even if we win the title next year, we will lose tens of millions of dollars.
You grossly overestimate playoff revenue in a market this size. This isnt LA, NY, or SIlicon Valley.

You also grossly overestimate the importance of KAT. A supermax guy should average more than 19 and 9 in the playoffs.

We have surrounded Ant (who is locked up through the end of 2029 by the way) with many other good players, and retooling by trading KAT may be the only way forward financially in the future to keep surrounding Ant with the talent he can compete for a title with. Keeping KAT is going to start costing you other players (like Naz and NAW next offseason).

[winforlose]

Also, next offseason, if we want to trade KAT for a purely draft pick based return to duck back under the luxury tax, adding Dillingham and his rookie scale deal makes that much more realistic, and we could possibly even bring back Naz and NAW and stay under the 2nd apron.

Would also possibly allow us to move on from Gobert in '25 with a core of Ant/KAT/Jaden and Dilly, and possibly even Naz.

IMHO this supertax thing is a one year deal barring a finals appearance, maybe not even then.
IF the AROD/Lore group wins out in the ownership fight they might be stuck with the entire luxury tax bill next June.

Which makes Glen running up a big tax bill while he still has control of the team a kind of under the radar way of poison pilling the sale of the team..

That is an interesting take on a poison pill. So to be clear, if the Wolves don’t win the championship then Glen is the ******* who stuck them with 80% of a large tax bill but a ton of extra profit that far exceeds the 80%. Or in the alternative they do win the championship which further increases their value and they get the credit? Or does that rest entirely with Glen for stopping them? Not to mention the fact that new ownership can always sue Glen for the damages incurred by denying them control in a timely manner. Your argument fails on many levels.

Trading KAT for salary dump is the kind of move you make if your goal is to lose Ant. You don’t go from contending to not contending simply for money and ask a superstar to go along for the ride. I also strongly suspect that a KAT salary dump loses you TC. We are either perennial losers who don’t want to spend what it takes to compete, or we are contenders who spend what it takes. You want proof, look at the teams over the 2nd apron and ask yourself how many of them are in contention talks?

It will be 100% of the bill since they have an option that expires next year (March i think? not 100%) to buy out Glen's last 20%.
SInce they are so cash poor already, a huge tax bill is pretty significant.

There's nothing illegal about Glen running up a big tax bill, and Lore and Arod are not publicly complaining about it.
But it's to Glen's advantage because it makes the purchase of the team more expensive for people he doesnt want to sell to.
I'm just saying Glen being willing to run up a huge luxury tax bill for the coming season isn't 100% him being a good guy.
It's actually quite out of character.

Possibility 1: Glene wins the dispute or legal battle drags out past next june
Glen has cash to pay the big tax bill already from the inital partial sale.
Lore and Arod are forced to finance their share of big financial losses.
Possibility 2: Lore and Arod win the disupte before the tax bill is due.
Lore and Arod are forced to finance even bigger losses shortly after assuming control of team, as do their other investors.

Even if we win the title next year, we will lose tens of millions of dollars.
You grossly overestimate playoff revenue in a market this size. This isnt LA, NY, or SIlicon Valley.

You also grossly overestimate the importance of KAT. A supermax guy should average more than 19 and 9 in the playoffs.

We have surrounded Ant (who is locked up through the end of 2029 by the way) with many other good players, and retooling by trading KAT may be the only way forward financially in the future to keep surrounding Ant with the talent he can compete for a title with. Keeping KAT is going to start costing you other players (like Naz and NAW next offseason).

1. New ownership has publicly stated on many occasions that they are not cash poor. In fact they must prove to the league that they are able to cover the full cost of the current roster to even complete the process of being approved by the league.

2. Profits go way beyond playoff games. Merchandise sales go way up when teams increase their national presence. We saw a historic amount of Wolves merch sell last year and we were not on national tv all that much. Speaking of National TV, those games are often simulcast with both the national and local teams covering them. That means more revenue from ads plus I think it is reasonable to assume they make a lot more from ESPN than Bally Sports on any given telecast. Another revenue increase that comes from success is that you can charge more for tickets and concessions. You should not assume that winning teams lose money simply because they pay the tax. Were that the case, no one would do it.

3. Lore and AROD need to keep the team competitive if they want a new stadium. New stadiums also increase revenue.

4. You say Karl is a negative asset on his contract, we can talk about that. But, salary dumping him, and trading him for other assets are very different conversations. I do think Karl gets moved next year to protect the young core (or the year after, as neither the repeater or second apron consequences start next year, and the cap increase will help to keep Naz and NAW.) but only as part of a trade that helps with win now as opposed to restocking the war chest for the future. The only way small market teams keep big name stars is by contending.

[younggunsmn]

The finances of Lore and ARod have been hotly debated both here and in the media.
What they say publicly and reality are completely different things.
All I'm saying is that Glen running up a huge tax bill puts added pressure on them financially when it comes to completing a sale, since as you pointed out they have to prove to the court and the NBA they can cover the current level of expenditures.

You are incredibly naive if you think we can possibly cover ballpark 300 million in salary and luxury tax in this market.
This level of spending is borderline break even for a team like the Warriors (with a long playoff run), who have the ultra rich people of San Francisco and Silicon Valley to gouge that we don't.
How many games we are on national TV does not affect our revenue.
If we make the playoffs, Bally gets 4-7 more games, which are also simulcast (splitting the viewership). That's it.
That's before paying coaches, management, advertising, rent, and other operating expenses which run well over 100 million.

I never said KAT is a negative asset, I said his contract is going to make it very hard to keep talent around Ant long term, and that we are not getting near supermax value from him so it is currently not money well spent.

[winforlose]

The finances of Lore and ARod have been hotly debated both here and in the media.
What they say publicly and reality are completely different things.
All I'm saying is that Glen running up a huge tax bill puts added pressure on them financially when it comes to completing a sale, since as you pointed out they have to prove to the court and the NBA they can cover the current level of expenditures.

You are incredibly naive if you think we can possibly cover ballpark 300 million in salary and luxury tax in this market.
This level of spending is borderline break even for a team like the Warriors (with a long playoff run), who have the ultra rich people of San Francisco and Silicon Valley to gouge that we don't.
How many games we are on national TV does not affect our revenue.
If we make the playoffs, Bally gets 4-7 more games, which are also simulcast (splitting the viewership). That's it.
That's before paying coaches, management, advertising, rent, and other operating expenses which run well over 100 million.

I never said KAT is a negative asset, I said his contract is going to make it very hard to keep talent around Ant long term, and that we are not getting near supermax value from him so it is currently not money well spent.

Please provide me with your source on GSW barely breaking even during their championship peak.

[younggunsmn]

Please provide me with your source on GSW barely breaking even during their championship peak.

Their championship peak was under a less punitive luxury tax system, and Curry was also on a bargain contract for some of that.
Maybe you missed all the of salary dumping and cost cutting they have also done over the years.
There are limits for even markets like that, which we are most certainly not.

We'll see if they let Klay Thompson walk this summer.
They are already regret paying Wiggins.

[Domejandro]

Trading for 8 and forwarding to Atlanta sounds right. Then figure out how to make the salary match. I don't know how we could have done that.

We couldn't without giving up Towns or McDaniels.

The only way to get there without giving up either of them (or Ant or Rudy) would be Conley + Naz + NAW. And Conley has a no-trade clause.

If that's the case we had no realistic way of getting it done. Thanks for the information.

Confirming that this is functionally true. Because the Minnesota Timberwolves are a second apron team, they cannot aggregate salaries, so it would have to be someone making more than Dejounte Murray.

[winforlose]

Please provide me with your source on GSW barely breaking even during their championship peak.

Their championship peak was under a less punitive luxury tax system, and Curry was also on a bargain contract for some of that.
Maybe you missed all the of salary dumping and cost cutting they have also done over the years.
There are limits for even markets like that, which we are most certainly not.

We'll see if they let Klay Thompson walk this summer.
They are already regret paying Wiggins.

You are using a lot of irrelevant information to confuse the issue (at the very least it confused me.) A dollar is still a dollar. You were arguing that 350 in costs is not recouped by winning a championship and being a major face of the league franchise. You claimed that GSW was barely breaking even. What is the claim based on?

With a quick Google search I found that GSW made 764 million in revenue in 2023. How is that barely breaking even?

https://www.sportico.com/leagues/basketball/2024/warriors-8-2-billion-valuation-dynasty-in-peril-1234775809/

[younggunsmn]

Try about 450 million.
210 for salary, 90 for tax, 150 for operating expenses (which are getting hit hard with inflation and rising interest rates).
The salary cap was set at 136 million last year and that figure is supposed to represent 50% of total revenue.
So the average team had 272 million in projected revenue last year.
We are a mid market and probably took in less than that figure when you consider the overall revenue curve and the bigger chunk the big markets make of the overall pie.

This team has been barely breaking even the past few years running salaries in the 150-165 million range, with no luxury tax payments and probably at least 10-15 mil a year coming in from their share of the luxury tax pie.
You think we can make up the difference of essentially doubling our salary costs by winning.
I do not.
We will have to agree to disagree on that one.

The Warriors make so much money they just cut CP3 and let Klay walk to save money because they are afraid of the repeater penalties in the new CBA and need to be below the tax line the next 2 years so they can reset the clock on the repeater penalties.