Taking on bad contract/players to get future picks

[shrink]

shrink must be busy, I thought this would've been replied to by now.

LOL! That made me laugh!

If Taylor lets Ratliff's big deal expire, will this be the first time he didn't trade it away to try to get more talent (and retain the salary)?

The two examples I can think of was Terrell Brandon's big expiring/injury contract, which Taylor used to bring in Sprewell (and go over the lux with Cassell). The other big expiring I can remember is Olowokandi, but he also used that one to move Wally's salary, and bring in Blount and Ricky.

The most common use GM's have for expirings is to let them expire, and lower their payroll. However, in both of these examples, Taylor maintained or increased his payroll. Yeah, he spent it on the wrong players, but he kept the wallet open.

I haven't followed the Wolves financially for their whole history, so if someone else has examples, I'd like to know about them.

[shrink]

I'd also add that while you all know how much I love a good trade, even I think all -- or at least the majority -- of Ratliff's deal needs to expire.

I am happy that Taylor was willing to go over the lux when he thought we had a contender, but we're not close to that now. One more vet is not going to get us a ring yet, and paying double on some of his salary is just a waste.

I love getting picks and prospects, and its easy for us fans to spend Glen taylor's money to try to increase talent without any consideration for the costs. I think that if we deal Ratliff, we need to get a prospect/pick and much of the expiring back, so we have the financial flexibility under the lux to bring back players that may look good over the next four months, and who we want to be a part of the future.

The best time to make a deal eating future salary would be this summer, and deal Walker or Buckner. At least if we eat salary in 2009-10, we'll likely have more room under the lux, so we won't be paying double on some of the salary we eat.

[casey]

If Taylor lets Ratliff's big deal expire, will this be the first time he didn't trade it away to try to get more talent (and retain the salary)?

He wouldn't give up Spree's deal for Baron Davis or Vince Carter.

[deeney0]

Did that really happen?

[shrink]

He wouldn't give up Spree's deal for Baron Davis or Vince Carter.

Spree's a good example. Thanks.

Personally after the torpedoing that the oft-injured, high-paid, trouble-maker Cassell had one to the team, I'm not surprised he didn't gamble on two other guys who were also oft-injured, high-paid, trouble-makers. The low prices both players were dealt floor suggest he wasn't the only one avoiding thioe guys.

However, using the Spree money on someone else (and stayiing over the lux) might have been something Taylor might have considered. Do you think he made the wrong choice letting Spreewell's contract exoire?

[tanat-0s]

-= original quote snipped =-



Spree's a good example. Thanks.

Personally after the torpedoing that the oft-injured, high-paid, trouble-maker Cassell had one to the team, I'm not surprised he didn't gamble on two other guys who were also oft-injured, high-paid, trouble-makers. The low prices both players were dealt floor suggest he wasn't the only one avoiding thioe guys.

You're a joke.
Cassell is a winner plain and simple.
Every team he came in, started winning.
The Rockets, the Nets, the Bucks, the Wolves, the Clippers.
Rockets won two rings with him (he was a contributor to that team, hittin huge shots in playoffs), the Nets and Clips went from the lottery to the playoffs, Bucks and Wolves made the conference finals.
I'm not saying that he was that main reason for their success, but he was a catalysator, he brought that winning culture.
Fact is Sam was the biggest winner in the last 20 years of the NBA, one of the best clutch shooters, the best complement to KG EVER, and the second best Timberwolf EVER.
And you sayng that he was "high-paid"? Please, get a clue. Cassell was getting MLE type money during his Minny days, lesser then Wally, lesser than Spree, lesser than Hudson, he was actually underpaid.

[shrink]

OK - so if he's a winner when his team wins in one season, is he a loser when they don't the next? Ever since his most recent prima donna act with the Wolves, "Cassell the winner" hasn't made the play-offs for four consecutive years. Hmmmm....?

To be precise, I should have said that Cassell demanded to be high paid - or at least get a long contract, which is difficult for an old and injury prone player. He had promised Taylor that he would not renegotiate during the season, and Taylor made him keep his word. When this grown man faced that, he pouted and intentionally torpedoed a team that many experts said was the favorite to win it all. When Cassell was through, by freezing out players, possibly faking injuries when faster PG's came to town that would embarrass his failing defense (according to Flip), and being a complete locker room cancer, he turned a potentially great team in to a team that couldn't even make the play-offs.

In Cassell's first year, I agree with you that he (and Spree) helped create an attitude of winning that allowed the Wolves escape the first round of the play-offs, and if he was healthy at the end of the season, we might have done more. However, any success he brought the first year was more than erased by the failure he created on the team the next year with his selfishness.

[theGreatRC]

Shrink, this is OT, but do you do your own taxes?

[shrink]

I guess my point is that if I was Glen Taylor (and I am not), and I had spent over the lux to try to give Kevin Garnett a shot at a ring, I would be pretty upset when a prima donna player torpedoed my team. If the two big FA's on the market were also injury-prone guys that had a history of disrupting their team (in TOR and NO), I wouldn't have used Sprewell's expiring on them either. Hindsight is always 20-20 though.

The second option for Taylor would have been to stay above the lux, and pay double on "that one extra player that puts us over the top" that isn't Baron or Vince. However, this would have been for a team that didn't even make the play-offs. With Spree gone and Cassell forcing his way out of town, were the Wolves one player away? I don't think so, but I can see some people thinking this was the appropriate move.

Right now, 5-of-30 owners have spent over the lux. Glen Taylor has said he's willing to do it to bring in the right player for a winner, and he has done that in the past. I think that's fair.

[deeney0]

Ever since his most recent prima donna act with the Wolves, "Cassell the winner" hasn't made the play-offs for four consecutive years. Hmmmm....?

That's not true, Clipps made the playoffs two years ago.

[shrink]

Shrink, this is OT, but do you do your own taxes?

LOL! Yeah, sort of. Turbo-Tax and a little research.

[theGreatRC]

-= original quote snipped =-



LOL! Yeah, sort of. Turbo-Tax and a little research.

Yeah, you seem like the type of guy that does.

[shrink]

That's not true, Clipps made the playoffs two years ago.

I thought they got edged by the Lakers and came in ninth .. but maybe that was last year? Sorry - my bad.

[deeney0]

Last year they came in 8th (GS edged them, Clips needed to win their 82nd game and lost)

[casey]

I guess my point is that if I was Glen Taylor (and I am not), and I had spent over the lux to try to give Kevin Garnett a shot at a ring, I would be pretty upset when a prima donna player torpedoed my team. If the two big FA's on the market were also injury-prone guys that had a history of disrupting their team (in TOR and NO), I wouldn't have used Sprewell's expiring on them either. Hindsight is always 20-20 though.

Are you saying that even now you would say it was wise not to give up Spree for either of them?

I understand why Taylor didn't do it. That doesn't make the right decision though (I thought he was wrong at the time and I still do). And it doesn't mean he wasn't being cheap.


Taylor had two options when it came to Spree. He could either pull the trigger on a trade like that and actually put a contending team together. Or he could completely rebuild. But he chose neither, and decided to sit in sub-mediocrity for a few years and lessen the return we would get for Garnett. Davis and Carter are all-stars, and not in the Wally all-star kinda way. These guys could've came in and completely changed the outlook of this franchise. The only person it benefited to not acquire those guys was Taylor. Letting Spree expire didn't give us any more flexibility with the roster, it just kept more money in Taylor's pocket.

[deeney0]

Was Vince really available for RD? I don't remember hearing that. I wouldn't have pulled the trigger on Baron at the time, because of the injuries (clearly I would've been wrong), but I don't remember hearing that VC was available then. What were the other pieces heading out from the Wolves?

[theGreatRC]

Vince was available for Spree

[deeney0]

Straight up? That would have been a mistake to pass on.

[B Calrissian]

Damn and I was just posted a couple days ago on the general board that KG would have been the player to get the most out of Carter.

[shrink]

The Vince Carter trade surprised a lot of people, first because someone would trade for him, and second because his price tag was so little, if that makes any sense. There were no rumors about him being traded to MIN.

If you'd have avoided Baron Davis for injuries, remember Carter was also full of them. In 01-02, he only played 60 games, and in 02-03, he only played 42. In 03-04 he claimed to be playing with injuries (a chronic "jumper's knee") and played 73 games, but his FG% dropped a full 50 points and his TO's almost doubled. In 04-05, his PPG droped from 22.5 to 15.9. Carter was constantly complaining about the team, and doing it in the media. Worse, the injury-prone, disgruntled player was still sitting on that massive contract.

Now, if you say to me, "would a normal GM go get him?" I'd say "Probably not." Heck, NJN paid almost nothing to get him, so you can imagine what his value was in the league. But imagine you're Glen Taylor, and you've just seen injury-prone Cassell torpedo your team. Would you use Sprewell's expiring to inherit that attitude and that contract .. and pay part of it double since you're over the lux?