Trade Talk (Part Six)

[Jedzz]

So I just read an interesting article about Boston needing a veteran center and some extra help moving forward. They also have a 28.5 million trade exception. Rubio and Davis to the Celtics could be a thing, the question is whether they would give us anything we want. It would also be ironic if Teague got displaced by Rubio this time around.

Anyone more familiar with Boston have any ideas on what we could ask in return?

I mean I think it would be along the lines of being free in exchange for cap space for the Wolves. Maybe we could pick up a struggling Nesmith?

I would see if the struggling Celtics and warm-seat Ainge are desperate. And that doesn’t mean a meh trade of Rubio and Davis. Yes, I mean Towns.

Towns + Russell + Filler

FOR

Brown + Walker + Filler + DRAFT CAPITAL

Then of course see if Warriors prefer Brown vs. Towns (I think they would) and acquire Wiseman + 2021 Wolves 1st + DRAFT CAPITAL in return.

But this must be just me. The board here has spoken, this is blasphemy crazy talk I guess. Seems most here prefer keeping Towns and play the 40% or less game of chance with their owed 1st versus a guaranteed future of:

Suggs or Cunningham
Wiseman
Edwards
Culver
2022 Tank 1st (another top 5 1st)

Ladder future seems much brighter and seems like an actual plan — one in which Wolves control own destiny while not relying on chance (hope or prayers or wishes).

I've played with Towns trades in the recent past (last summer) on ways they could have gotten 3 picks in this past draft and two to three more for 2021. But the problem with those fun ideas is what you are actually likely to get from those picks is hardly ever matching the hype of having those picks and then how does playing 4 to 5 rookie and second year guys win you anything for a long time?

So you are selling us on the choice of more tanking. Finishing out this year trying to achieve #1 again and then doing it again in 2022, all for a plan to end up with 4 top 3 players and 1 top 6 player all since 2019? This would likely mean another 5 years of excuses about players needing development, replacing tanking with the words development and new timelines way into the future. Ultimately 3 of those five newly drafted players will probably underwhelm in a big way, one on your list already sort of has, and we will be stuck with two ultra young (claimed future) stars and what else? Not much because at a base rookie scale level you are paying at 6-12 for all those guys, and mostly around 10/yr. I looked at this before and that would leave you with a lot for FA. If you can get anyone to sign with all your high hoped top draft picks that will be eating up all the playing time. Because "if you don't play them you aren't developing them" issues. Just like now with Edwards/Culver taking minutes from better overall ready to use players. So crazy? You could do it. Are you likely to build a winning team? I have high doubts in how that all plays out.

[Baseline81]

See trade 1 and where I referenced it in pick details.

Has a team ever done that before?

And no, I wouldn't trade Beasley for Winslow and Golden State's 2024 pick, only then to turn it into a swap.

[Wolveswin]

See trade 1 and where I referenced it in pick details.

Has a team ever done that before?

And no, I wouldn't trade Beasley for Winslow and Golden State's 2024 pick, only then to turn it into a swap.

Not saying the TNT board is the gospel, but they said Winslow + 2024 Warriors 1st was too rich for Beasley. I think that value is spot on.

You are looking at it wrong. By Wolves acquiring the 2024 Warriors 1st, and in turn sending it back to Warriors (during Towns transaction), it doesn’t simply turn into just a swap. It turns into couple more 1sts and added swaps. With Warriors owing their 2024 1sts as it is, it really hamstrings the future 1st capital they can legally send out in a Towns trade. Wolves using Beasley to get it back and facilitate more value from Warriors during their Towns trade is what happens.

[Wolveswin]

See trade 1 and where I referenced it in pick details.

Has a team ever done that before?

And no, I wouldn't trade Beasley for Winslow and Golden State's 2024 pick, only then to turn it into a swap.

Not saying the TNT board is the gospel, but they said Winslow + 2024 Warriors 1st was too rich for Beasley. I think that value is spot on.

You are looking at it wrong. By Wolves acquiring the 2024 Warriors 1st, and in turn sending it back to Warriors (during Towns transaction), it doesn’t simply turn into just a swap. It turns into couple more 1sts and added swaps. With Warriors owing their 2024 1sts as it is, it really hamstrings the future 1st capital they can legally send out in a Towns trade. Wolves using Beasley to get it back and facilitate more value from Warriors during their Towns trade is what happens.

Maybe this will help...

Towns for...
A) Straight up best Warriors offer:
Wiseman + Oubre + Paschall
2021 Wolves 1st (returned)
2021 Warriors 1st (21-30 protected) OR 2021 Wolves 2nd
2022 Warriors 1st Swap
2023 Warriors 1st Swap
2026 Warriors 1st (unprotected, two years after owed Grizzlies 1st conveyed)
2027 Warriors 1st Swap

OR

Towns + Beasley for...
B) Beasley to Grizzlies for Winslow + 2024 Warriors 1st (and send back to Warriors in Towns trade):
Wiseman + Oubre + Paschall + Winslow
2021 Wolves 1st (returned)
2021 Warriors 1st (21-30 protected) OR 2021 Wolves 2nd
2022 Warriors 1st Swap
2023 Warriors 1st (unprotected)
2024 Warriors 1st Swap
2025 Warriors 1st (unprotected)
2026 Warriors 1st Swap
2027 Warriors 1st (limited protections)

[stra0448]

DLo and $75,000,000 for a Nintendo DS lite and Tetris DS

[Baseline81]

Not saying the TNT board is the gospel, but they said Winslow + 2024 Warriors 1st was too rich for Beasley. I think that value is spot on.

You are looking at it wrong. By Wolves acquiring the 2024 Warriors 1st, and in turn sending it back to Warriors (during Towns transaction), it doesn’t simply turn into just a swap. It turns into couple more 1sts and added swaps. With Warriors owing their 2024 1sts as it is, it really hamstrings the future 1st capital they can legally send out in a Towns trade. Wolves using Beasley to get it back and facilitate more value from Warriors during their Towns trade is what happens.

I rarely visit the Trades and Transactions board. And when I do, I realize very quickly why I don't.

I find it rather odd you use it above but not others. For instance, MoneyTalks41890 posted the Wolves shouldn't deal Towns outside of a godfather offer. Yet, you continue to look for deals to move him. And no, I don't consider Wiseman and picks a godfather offer.

[Wolveswin]

Not saying the TNT board is the gospel, but they said Winslow + 2024 Warriors 1st was too rich for Beasley. I think that value is spot on.

You are looking at it wrong. By Wolves acquiring the 2024 Warriors 1st, and in turn sending it back to Warriors (during Towns transaction), it doesn’t simply turn into just a swap. It turns into couple more 1sts and added swaps. With Warriors owing their 2024 1sts as it is, it really hamstrings the future 1st capital they can legally send out in a Towns trade. Wolves using Beasley to get it back and facilitate more value from Warriors during their Towns trade is what happens.

I rarely visit the Trades and Transactions board. And when I do, I realize very quickly why I don't.

I find it rather odd you use it above but not others. For instance, MoneyTalks41890 posted the Wolves shouldn't deal Towns outside of a godfather offer. Yet, you continue to look for deals to move him. And no, I don't consider Wiseman and picks a godfather offer.

To each their own. I see not only that Warriors offer as godfather but a franchise saver.

Yes, fans would have to endure another 3-5 years of tanking. Aren’t Wolves already at bottom of the barrel now with Towns and zero motivation to tank?

And by accepting the Warriors godfather offer, Wolves franchise not only has a clear path into the future (being: Wiseman, Edwards, Suggs or Cunningham, 2022 tank) but they do NOT have to endure the pain of finishing bottom 5 (or worse) this 2021 season and gifting Warrior #4. Or endure the “hope” of 40% (or worse) chance of luck gifting them 1-3 2021 1st — just to turn around (exactly as the planned this season, oops) and hope 2022 season they don’t suck enough to gift Warriors top 3 1st with their unprotected 1st owed.

[KG_And1]

We need to get in on the Beal for Simmons fan-made chatter.

A1, Culver, Rubio + Philly picks to Washington enough? Beal to Philly, Simmons to Minny.

KAT
Vanderbilt
Simmons
Beasley
D-Lo

Okogie
McDaniels
Naz
JMac

Run a 9-man rotation, Thibs-style, to the promised land.

[TRik]

I hear you. Very reasonably stated.

I just don't think Lavine's game, as currently constructed, would mesh well with what is usually needed to start on a team vying for a championship. As I said, I would totally be cool with being proven wrong. I would also love to see him light it up coming off the bench for the Nuggets or some other similar team.

Watching the Bulls games, he sure can put up numbers. But lordly he could really be passing more as well to help make his teammates better. I won't mention the defense again. lol

That's why I think it's important to note the fact most people have preconceived notions about roles and player types. But just based purely on talent, LaVine certainly has what it takes. What you're talking about has more to do with player roles. Most sixth men nowadays are scoring guards, so people automatically want to put the scoring guards in a sixth man role when constructing their own championship roster.

I think it's fair to say Trik isn't going to hear out what anyone says about this. Preconcieved notions was a good way to put it Klomp as I think many should rethink their thoughts on LaVine and see him reaching scoring numbers compared to other true starting scorers of this league. The good ones. It seems to me there are only a rare few true two way studs and people seem to forget it's a team game. A lot of scoring players' defensive numbers over the years have benefit from being on better defensive teams around them and or stacked teams around them. Plenty of champion teams had pure offensive players, but I'm watching a still improving player in LaVine every season yet.

Klomp, your other good thought was champion teams being pieced together in many ways. We can look no futher than last year with Lakers and seeing starting -> 5 players starting outside Lebron/AD that would never be approved by people here and are all worse than LaVine.
MacGee - enough said
Danny Green (42/37/69, 3rpg, 1.3apg for Lakers) 68 starts
Avery Bradley (44/36/83, 2rpg, 1.3apg for Lakers) 44 starts
Kentavious Pope (47/39/78, 2rpg, 1.6apg for Lakers) 26 starts
Kyle Kuzma (44/32/74, 5rpg, 1.3apg for Lakers) 9 starts

But their argument will then be that LaVine can't be a #1 or #2 guy. I disagree there as well. He can be one of the two or three star players on a built team, his scoring numbers prove it. And if players like Beal can be desirable starters, then so can LaVine. I'll circle back to the Beal comparison.

TRik is using faulty player examples like Luo Williams and Jamal Crawford who don't even belong in this conversation with LaVine now at all. Neither has reached the scoring level and efficiency LaVine has.

Trik described LaVine as "chucking"!
LaVine shoots no more than say Lebron James does now as a annual winner, using Lebron as the pinnacle player of this generation to gauge here and James has never shot as efficiently as LaVine does now. Is Lebron James a chucker? Lebron needed over 22-23 shots/g to reach his two seasons of 30ppg. LaVine hasn't ever had a season yet over 20 shots/g. LaVine at 19.6 shots/g right now with 28.5ppg. 52/44/85 isn't chucking. LaVine is currently having the 121st best scoring season of the NBA ever and to put that into perspective that 121 seasons includes 5 seasons from Wilt, 9 from Jordan, 6 from West, many multiples from past greats, Harden has 5, Kobe 4, Lebron 3, Curry 2, Beal 2 now with this season, Giannis has 1 season in that range. Luka already 2 now with this season but he's chucking compared to LaVine! Luka's best so far is 47/34/80 on 21shots/g. Trae Young has 1 season in that range now and he's chucking in comparison at 44/36/86 for 29ppg on 21 shots/g. Kawhi Leonard's best scoring season ranked him at 200th best scoring season at 27ppg of 47/38/89 on 20shots/g, 7 rpg, 5apg. LaVine is near to eclipsing Kawhi's best right now as we speak.

TRik claimed low passing , but just like almost every stat of his, it's climbing every year. He's at 5apg and 5rpg this season. He's only had 3.5 seasons of starting games so far. This guy's situation is more unique. But let's compare him to Bradley Beal for one example since everyone is so high on him these days.


It took until Beal's 7th season to reach 25 ppg.

B. Beal yr 7: 25.5ppg, 19.7 shots/g. 5rpg, 5apg on 48/35/80 efficiency with a TS% of .581, 37mpg
LaVine yr 7: 28.5ppg, 19.6 shot/g, 5rpg, 5apg on 52/44/85 efficiency with a TS% of .649, 36mpg

LaVine only has 380 games to his career now into 7th season. 293 starts so far.
Beal had 408 games in through 6 seasons. 372 starts through 6 seasons. 535 starts to date.

Beal, yr9, after 535 starts is 47/34/90 this yr, shooting 24 shots/g, 5rpg, 5apg, 32ppg in 35 mpg.
Shouldn't Beal be passing more, have more efficiency etc in order to be considered a starter in this league according to TRik?

LaVine 11,800 minutes played
Beal 13,751 minutes played before 7th season started. 19,678 minutes played to date
So Imagine what LaVine will be capable of in seasons 8.9 like Beal has.

Tell me LaVine isn't capable of the exact same or better since he's showing efficiency Beal hasn't yet. People just need to adjust their early career preconcieved notions of these players. We had a very similar discussions on Beasley with disbelievers in him as a starter. Many still refuse to see what these players are really doing. Beasley is a few years behind these guys with his own climbing trajectory.

LaVine has to carry this years numbers through to the end of the season for sure, but that's the level he's showing is possible with the same or less amount of shots as any of these other starters around the league.

I rest my case on this topic. Lavine is worth a trade offer if Bradley Beal is.

Hahah. TRik is the devil.

Dude, I seriously applaud the time you put into that post.

Brovo mate.

[Jedzz]

Hahah. TRik is the devil.

Dude, I seriously applaud the time you put into that post.

Brovo mate.

I don't care about the time/effort or your acknowledgment of it. Do you understand what the numbers prove? Do you believe it yet?

[TRik]

Hahah. TRik is the devil.

Dude, I seriously applaud the time you put into that post.

Brovo mate.

I don't care about the time/effort or your acknowledgment of it. Do you understand what the numbers prove? Do you believe it yet?

It’s ok for people to hold different beliefs. This is a basketball forum specifically designed for people to have differing opinions. I get that you REALLY like Zach LaVine and REALLY want to convince others. I just don’t share the same opinion mate. I don’t put a lot of importance on individual stats if they are also not reflected in wins.

Instead of you continuing to spend time trying to convince me and my ‘preconceived’ notions, lol, how about we just agree to disagree here.

Peace.

[Jedzz]

I don't care about the time/effort or your acknowledgment of it. Do you understand what the numbers prove? Do you believe it yet?

It’s ok for people to hold different beliefs. This is a basketball forum specifically designed for people to have differing opinions.

Never said you couldn't. Just asked you if you could understand what I think the numbers are showing and interpret youself now that I lpresented them and compared them to other numbers for context.

I get that you REALLY like Zach LaVine and REALLY want to convince others. I just don’t share the same opinion mate. I don’t put a lot of importance on individual stats if they are also not reflected in wins.

I get it that you are REALLY not liking Zack LaVine and REALLY want to convince us it's ok to ignore the numbers. All good brother.

Can I ask you a different question? Would want Bradley Beal on this team? It's not a trick question. Maybe you wouldn't. His teams have often been losers too.

Instead of you continuing to spend time trying to convince me and my ‘preconceived’ notions, lol, how about we just agree to disagree here.
Peace.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything. This ME thing you have going on...get over that. I just felt like showing how wrong I thought your statement was to the world, in my opinion, and back up my opinion by double checking myself. You see you aren't the first person to casually dismissed LaVine over the years. It's one of the things that has the team still in a pickle today. Even I undervalued a trade suggestion earlier and after seeing just how much he is doing and where that actually stacks up across the league I would now offer more and choose to pay him in kind.

[Jedzz]

Yes, fans would have to endure another 3-5 years of tanking.

They can do that without feeding the Warriors any talent. They've been doing it for years no matter what players the team has. Gets them no where. I know, I know, the draft is more fun when you have picks! I get it. But in the morning, there is always that ashamed feeling.

[TRik]

I don't care about the time/effort or your acknowledgment of it. Do you understand what the numbers prove? Do you believe it yet?

It’s ok for people to hold different beliefs. This is a basketball forum specifically designed for people to have differing opinions.

Never said you couldn't. Just asked you if you could understand what I think the numbers are showing and interpret youself now that I lpresented them and compared them to other numbers for context.

I get that you REALLY like Zach LaVine and REALLY want to convince others. I just don’t share the same opinion mate. I don’t put a lot of importance on individual stats if they are also not reflected in wins.

I get it that you are REALLY not liking Zack LaVine and REALLY want to convince us it's ok to ignore the numbers. All good brother.

Can I ask you a different question? Would want Bradley Beal on this team? It's not a trick question. Maybe you wouldn't. His teams have often been losers too.

Instead of you continuing to spend time trying to convince me and my ‘preconceived’ notions, lol, how about we just agree to disagree here.
Peace.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything. This ME thing you have going on...get over that. I just felt like showing how wrong I thought your statement was to the world, in my opinion, and back up my opinion by double checking myself. You see you aren't the first person to casually dismissed LaVine over the years. It's one of the things that has the team still in a pickle today. Even I undervalued a trade suggestion earlier and after seeing just how much he is doing and where that actually stacks up across the league I would now offer more and choose to pay him in kind.

Sure this isn’t a trick question. Lol.

Zero idea how you would structure a trade for Beal, and I imagine if he ever decides to leave Washington it will be to a bigger market and not somewhere like the Wolves.

But, for arguments sake, if trading for Beal meant KAT stayed longer. Then yes I would be fine with a trade for Beal centred around Edwards.

I would not make that same trade for LaVine.

Yes I like Beal more than LaVine, and I’m pretty sure I’m not alone there.

[Jedzz]

Yes I like Beal more than LaVine, and I’m pretty sure I’m not alone there.

Of course you are not alone. Plenty of people like you around. You can like him better. Doesn't mean he is better.

[Norseman79]

Alright...when do the changes start happening? You know it's coming...and it needs to.

Who goes? Any rumors at all?

[Heimdal]

Read on Twitter

[Krapinsky]

Read on Twitter

I'd be legitimately upset if we gave up on Nowell.

[shrink]

Read on Twitter

I'd be legitimately upset if we gave up on Nowell.

I agree with you, but I think there are only a certain number of youth you can develop simultaneously. I felt bad for Rubio on the second unit last month, trying to simultaneously organize Naz, McDaniels, Culver, Edwards .. together averaging less than one year of experience.

We have many young players that need to develop. Even our older players like KAT and Malik have plenty of room to get better. I just worry that by putting so few vets on the team, it is harder for the young players to know where to be.

Nowell should have 2nd rounder value if his deal converts, and he might grow into something more. I hope they don’t waive him for nothing.

[Jedzz]

Read on Twitter

I'd be legitimately upset if we gave up on Nowell.

Probably gone unless there are some larger surprises. JMac on a twoway also possibly gone.

Difficult to guess though because Rosas is still Rosas here. These are his players.