Trade Talk (Part Eight)

[SO_MONEY]

I'm sorry you can't stand me, but go back and look. He has been claiming the difference is minimal. It has been a direct comparison.

Please show me a post where SO_MONEY says McDaniels has or will have better stats than Simmons.

From my understanding, he's saying McDaniels can cover a lot of what Simmons brings but at a fraction of the cost ($2M vs. $33M). The dollar variance allows the Wolves better talent at other positions (e.g. Beasley and Gordon/Markkanen vs. minimum players).

"McDaniels can cover a lot of what Lebron does, why pay Lebron 20X as much for a couple pts/rebs/asts?"

Thats the logic SO_MONEY has used and it deserves ridicule. He makes the argument that their impact on the game/team/winning can be boiled down to nothing more than a couple raw stats and then minimizes the differential in those players.

Its like saying you would rather drive a Mustang in an F1 race because it costs 30k instead of 1.5M and the F1 car "only has a little more HP".

You are doing exactly what they said.

And I wouldn't make the claim McDaniels could cover much of what LBJ can...are we now comparing Simmons to LeBron? It is hard to keep up.

I have been clear in my points and I believe that to be the case because other people get them and don't make attributions to what I said.

[SO_MONEY]

"McDaniels can cover a lot of what Lebron does, why pay Lebron 20X as much for a couple pts/rebs/asts?"

Thats the logic SO_MONEY has used and it deserves ridicule. He makes the argument that their impact on the game/team/winning can be boiled down to nothing more than a couple raw stats and then minimizes the differential in those players.

Its like saying you would rather drive a Mustang in an F1 race because it costs 30k instead of 1.5M and the F1 car "only has a little more HP".

Did he say the underline?

I understand your point, but you've used a rather poor analogy.

No I did not. But he wants to make it seem like I did to discredit a reasonable position, because it is easier to do than address valid points he doesn't necessarily have answers to... that is the appearance anyways.

[winforlose]

"McDaniels can cover a lot of what Lebron does, why pay Lebron 20X as much for a couple pts/rebs/asts?"

Thats the logic SO_MONEY has used and it deserves ridicule. He makes the argument that their impact on the game/team/winning can be boiled down to nothing more than a couple raw stats and then minimizes the differential in those players.

Its like saying you would rather drive a Mustang in an F1 race because it costs 30k instead of 1.5M and the F1 car "only has a little more HP".

Did he say the underline?

I understand your point, but you've used a rather poor analogy.

No I did not. But he wants to make it seem like I did to discredit a reasonable position, because it is easier to do than address valid points he doesn't necessarily have answers to... that is the appearance anyways.

That’s the problem with false equivalence. You compare a player with major weaknesses against one of the greatest of all time. There is no universe in which Lebron and Simmons are equivalent, nor can their impact can ever be mistaken. Lebron opens the offensive playbook where Simmons closes more than half of it. Lebron is an established leader with more creditably than entire NBA locker rooms, Simmons is a guy who cannot stop costing his team their playoff series. Lebron is grizzled vet, Simmons is a young kid who never found his shot. Veritas your name means truth, please do better than this.

[IceManBK1]

https://www.prosportsdaily.com/articles/3-teams-to-watch-as-possible-lauri-markkanen-landing-spots-705170.html

Lauri sign and trade+Coby White for Beasley, Layman+Okogie Fair enough trade.

Dlo/White
Edwards/Beverly
McDaniels/Prince
Lauri/Vando
Towns/Reid

[VeritasTri]

"McDaniels can cover a lot of what Lebron does, why pay Lebron 20X as much for a couple pts/rebs/asts?"

Thats the logic SO_MONEY has used and it deserves ridicule. He makes the argument that their impact on the game/team/winning can be boiled down to nothing more than a couple raw stats and then minimizes the differential in those players.

Its like saying you would rather drive a Mustang in an F1 race because it costs 30k instead of 1.5M and the F1 car "only has a little more HP".

Did he say the underline?

I understand your point, but you've used a rather poor analogy.

Its a perfect analogy for the argument he made.

[VeritasTri]

Did he say the underline?

I understand your point, but you've used a rather poor analogy.

No I did not. But he wants to make it seem like I did to discredit a reasonable position, because it is easier to do than address valid points he doesn't necessarily have answers to... that is the appearance anyways.

That’s the problem with false equivalence. You compare a player with major weaknesses against one of the greatest of all time. There is no universe in which Lebron and Simmons are equivalent, nor can their impact can ever be mistaken. Lebron opens the offensive playbook where Simmons closes more than half of it. Lebron is an established leader with more creditably than entire NBA locker rooms, Simmons is a guy who cannot stop costing his team their playoff series. Lebron is grizzled vet, Simmons is a young kid who never found his shot. Veritas your name means truth, please do better than this.

His only argument was "simmons scores a few more points, grabs a few more rebounds, and gets a couple more assists than McDaniels but makes 33M more". I applied it exactly the same to Lebron and now youre mad and crying foul?

If you want to be upset with somebody over poor comparisons then be upset with so_money for boiling down the differences between McDaniels and Simmons to "a few pts/rebs/asts". When the same logic is applied to other players suddenly you can see the ridiculous nature of the argument, which was entirely my point and why my analogy was spot on.

[jpatrick]

https://www.prosportsdaily.com/articles/3-teams-to-watch-as-possible-lauri-markkanen-landing-spots-705170.html

Lauri sign and trade+Coby White for Beasley, Layman+Okogie Fair enough trade.

Dlo/White
Edwards/Beverly
McDaniels/Prince
Lauri/Vando
Towns/Reid

I’m intrigued by Lauri offensively. I feel like there’s more there than he showed in Chicago, but the defense would be awful. He’s not strong enough to guard centers and too slow footed to guard power forwards. He is truly a slightly better Juancho.

I certainly wouldn’t give up an asset (FRP) for the honor of paying him near 15m per year.

White I wasn’t high on in the lotto because it was clear to me he was a sixth man gunner type and not a true PG. I’d take a flier but again, not giving up a lot for them.

[VeritasTri]

I’m intrigued by Lauri offensively. I feel like there’s more there than he showed in Chicago, but the defense would be awful. He’s not strong enough to guard centers and too slow footed to guard power forwards. He is truly a slightly better Juancho.

I certainly wouldn’t give up an asset (FRP) for the honor of paying him near 15m per year.

White I wasn’t high on in the lotto because it was clear to me he was a sixth man gunner type and not a true PG. I’d take a flier but again, not giving up a lot for them.

If the Simmons deal didnt happen one route I considered was trading Reid/filler (was Culver, now maybe Okogie?) to Toronto for Boucher to be the starting PF. If something like that happened I would be interested in bringing in Lauri as the 3rd big and playing him as the backup center in a poor mans Towns role. You could get him minutes next to Towns at the 4 as well but I dont think anybody is excited about that defensive pairing. But if you had a mix of Towns/Boucher/Lauri/Vandy at the 4/5 you could always have one legit floor spacer out there and have a couple guys who can defend in Boucher/Vandy.

Im not really interested in investing as Lauri as the starting 4 next to Towns however. Hes a solid player but just doesnt fit well considering our needs IMO.

[Baseline81]

Its a perfect analogy for the argument he made.

Sorry, it doesn't work because of the rule differences between F1 racing and the NBA.

SO_MONEY has already said he would trade for Simmons, calling him a very good player. I would wager he opts for Simmons over McDaniels in a vacuum, but that isn't how the NBA operates. He's factoring in the Wolves current salary situation too.

For the record, I have no connection to SO_MONEY. It's clear there are some who see his perspective, and yet, you and a few others are trying to take him to task.

[KGdaBom]

Sorry, but you're the type of poster I cannot stand.

I've seen the back and forth between you and SO_MONEY. For the umpteenth time, it's never been a direct comparison between Simmons and McDaniels, but rather the cost-benefit analysis of such a trade that includes McDaniels.

I'm sorry you can't stand me, but go back and look. He has been claiming the difference is minimal. It has been a direct comparison.

Baseline is right. You have a recurring tendency to overstate or misrepresent what has been said, when you want to argue against a point. You aren’t the only one to do this, but it brings the quality of discussion down. If your position is legitimate (and it often is and I like reading your opinion), you should be able to represent it without dropping to a level where you misrepresent people you disagree with.

For the record, I don’t believe anyone has said, or is pretending, that McDaniels at 19 is “anywhere near” Simmons at age 25.[/quote]
I disagree. I make it a point not to misrepresent what people say. So Money has said those words. He projects the difference between McDaniels and Simmons to be minimal over the next 3 years. He is very much comparing the two and acting like McDaniels is just slightly below him.

[KGdaBom]

I'm sorry you can't stand me, but go back and look. He has been claiming the difference is minimal. It has been a direct comparison.

Please show me a post where SO_MONEY says McDaniels has or will have better stats than Simmons.

From my understanding, he's saying McDaniels can cover a lot of what Simmons brings but at a fraction of the cost ($2M vs. $33M). The dollar variance allows the Wolves better talent at other positions (e.g. Beasley and Gordon/Markkanen vs. minimum players).

.. and not give up future assets like draft picks to make the trade. Right.

I can see, and respect, how people would have differing views on this, and that’s cool. It’s a legitimate discussion. But I have gotten sick of people mischaracterizing each other’s words. We’re all Wolves fans here, and we can treat each other better than this.

I don't look at his posts anymore. I'm done with that. You are misrepresenting me now. I never said that So Money said McDaniels will have better stats than Simmons. He said the difference will be small. If you bother going back and looking he said it several times.

[KGdaBom]

Its a perfect analogy for the argument he made.

Sorry, it doesn't work because of the rule differences between F1 racing and the NBA.

SO_MONEY has already said he would trade for Simmons, calling him a very good player. I would wager he opts for Simmons over McDaniels in a vacuum, but that isn't how the NBA operates. He's factoring in the Wolves current salary situation too.

For the record, I have no connection to SO_MONEY. It's clear there are some who see his perspective, and yet, you and a few others are trying to take him to task.

So Money has said again and again and again that yes Simmons is better, but only marginally. He has also been incredibly rude to anybody who doesn't clearly see that he's obviously right. He questions the honesty and integrity of people who don't agree with him. Read his posts. I am in no way misrepresenting him.

[VeritasTri]

Its a perfect analogy for the argument he made.

Sorry, it doesn't work because of the rule differences between F1 racing and the NBA.

SO_MONEY has already said he would trade for Simmons, calling him a very good player. I would wager he opts for Simmons over McDaniels in a vacuum, but that isn't how the NBA operates. He's factoring in the Wolves current salary situation too.

For the record, I have no connection to SO_MONEY. It's clear there are some who see his perspective, and yet, you and a few others are trying to take him to task.

Having to explain things which should be obvious to those of even average intelligence hurts my soul.

The point flew right over your head as you respond by highlighting the "rule differences" between auto racing and basketball.

[m2002brian]

Maybe we (Wolves) are just the team that gets rumored about wanting Simmons so that Morey can keep asking an insane price. He has to make it seem as though there is strong interest from one team in order to justify, to any other team, his asking price.

All this smells like the Iverson to MN rumors back in the day. All of which went exactly nowhere.

[VeritasTri]

Maybe we (Wolves) are just the team that gets rumored about wanting Simmons so that Morey can keep asking an insane price. He has to make it seem as though there is strong interest from one team in order to justify, to any other team, his asking price.

All this smells like the Iverson to MN rumors back in the day. All of which went exactly nowhere.

I think that kind of plotting is 99% fan fantasy and 1% reality, like its a movie or something.

Using this case specifically, how do the wolves offering what they could (nowhere near moreys reported insane asking price) enable him to continue asking for the moon? It doesnt even make sense.

[minimus]

Still think about these three 2nd round picks that we have next year. Should we somehow convert them now to improve PF situation?

Nowell, 2nd round pick for Daniel Gafford

KAT/Reid/Gafford + Knight
Vando/Gafford/MCD
MCD/Prince/Edwards
Edwards/Beasley/Bolmaro
DLo/Beverly/JMac + Wright

Watch on YouTube

[Dewey]

I don’t think the asking price is as high as rumored - more of a way for Philly to try and weed out the low ball offers. Else, one would have to wonder why they’d trade him if he’s worth so much(?).

So ya, Philly has botched the process IMO … you don’t throw your meal ticket under the bus then expect to flip him for top dollar.

I’d certainly trade for him, but I won’t lose any sleep if he we don’t. Our PF position is once again on the verge of hurting us and a plan B is necessary. Not a fan of running with what we have.

[Klomp]

Maybe we (Wolves) are just the team that gets rumored about wanting Simmons so that Morey can keep asking an insane price. He has to make it seem as though there is strong interest from one team in order to justify, to any other team, his asking price.

All this smells like the Iverson to MN rumors back in the day. All of which went exactly nowhere.

All some scheme, huh? Well it must've been a pretty deep op then, since Billy King was still pushing it a decade after the fact.

https://bringmethenews.com/sports/could-pairing-kg-and-ai-have-been-the-answer-for-the-wolves

[SO_MONEY]

I'm sorry you can't stand me, but go back and look. He has been claiming the difference is minimal. It has been a direct comparison.

Baseline is right. You have a recurring tendency to overstate or misrepresent what has been said, when you want to argue against a point. You aren’t the only one to do this, but it brings the quality of discussion down. If your position is legitimate (and it often is and I like reading your opinion), you should be able to represent it without dropping to a level where you misrepresent people you disagree with.

For the record, I don’t believe anyone has said, or is pretending, that McDaniels at 19 is “anywhere near” Simmons at age 25.[/quote]
I disagree. I make it a point not to misrepresent what people say. So Money has said those words. He projects the difference between McDaniels and Simmons to be minimal over the next 3 years. He is very much comparing the two and acting like McDaniels is just slightly below him.

I didn't. People know it. And you are being called on it.

What I did was draw attention to the fact that with development he could be a suitable 4th or 5th option
offering irreplaceable valuable at his rate with marginal or non-existent differences in production in many areas, important areas, areas that have us interested in Simmons. I have never said McDaniels is better or that I expect McDaniels to ever be as good as Simmons. I can hope for that though, even if unlikely. But boy howdy if he is.

[jpatrick]

Maybe we (Wolves) are just the team that gets rumored about wanting Simmons so that Morey can keep asking an insane price. He has to make it seem as though there is strong interest from one team in order to justify, to any other team, his asking price.

All this smells like the Iverson to MN rumors back in the day. All of which went exactly nowhere.

I don’t think it’s fan fiction since several media members, both local and National, have insisted the wolves are pretty desperate to get Simmons. Personally, no matter how much we want him, I don’t think the odds are high based on the lack of win-now pieces we’re willing to give up.

I’d thought about Rosas giving his old mentor some help by leaking the Wolves interest to keep Simmons’ value high, but I don’t think that’s the case. We literally have nothing at PF right now. If we don’t make the playoffs this year, I’d be shocked if Rosas gets another year. He will fill PF but he’s waiting out the big fish (Simmons) before settling for something smaller (Lauri, Nance, etc).