The Julius Randle Thread

[winforlose]

Read on Twitter

Two things are true at once.

1. Finch likes Randle.
2. We are a better team if Randle is on a different roster.

[Ftownbomber]

Would this convo be different if we had a mobile center to change the dynamic for Randle and for Ant ?


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[winforlose]

Would this convo be different if we had a mobile center to change the dynamic for Randle and for Ant ?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Yes. It would also be different if we had a floor spacing starting PG. The key issue as I see it is Ant and Randle are a bad fit. Ant will never come off the bench, but Randle as a second unit 6th man could do a lot of good. The problem is he costs too much and has too big an ego for that role. Moreover Rudy cannot be moved this year, and we have no C depth behind him. Randle should be moved.

[WentzerWuver]

Read on Twitter

Two things are true at once.

1. Finch likes Randle.
2. We are a better team if Randle is on a different roster.

You finally learned why no one wanted Randy. Some will never learn that KAT was so much better!

https://youtu.be/gBfU3ltj5t8?si=sUnUyuOoVi1taBte

[winforlose]

Read on Twitter

Two things are true at once.

1. Finch likes Randle.
2. We are a better team if Randle is on a different roster.

You finally learned why no one wanted Randy. Some will never learn that KAT was so much better!

https://youtu.be/gBfU3ltj5t8?si=sUnUyuOoVi1taBte

1. Last year I went to the NYK board and suggested KAT for Randle. I also had the Wolves getting 5 firsts and filler. That is the value difference I assign to the 2 players.
2. Let’s make no mistake, Randle has real value. Just because a player doesn’t fit here doesn’t mean he won’t fit elsewhere. LAL would love to have Randle. Miami would love to have Randle. I could see the 76ers doing better with him than with this version of PG. The list goes on. As I said in the previous post 2 things can be true at once. Naz is a better fit as a starter than Randle, but Randle is an NBA starter on multiple other NBA teams.

[shrink]

Would this convo be different if we had a mobile center to change the dynamic for Randle and for Ant ?

Great question, and welcome to the boards!

Rudy is great at what he does, but he needs to be great because he is a detriment in other areas. A mobile center that could shoot three’s would let us play five-out on offense, and make more room for Randle and Ant drives. But the team has relied on Gobert-level defense for its identity. We’ve never been a good offense, but we still win because our defense is so overwhelming with good perimeter defenders who can play up on their man and gamble because they have Rudy behind them.

Mobility would definitely help the offense, but it would need to be accompanied by an elite defensive center too. Naz is no rim protector and neither is Randle. If we had a center who was mobile, could shoot three’s, AND defend the rim, we’d be better. But at this point, we’re talking about Bam and maybe Mobley, and both are stars on their own teams and unlikely to be available.

[winforlose]

Would this convo be different if we had a mobile center to change the dynamic for Randle and for Ant ?

Great question, and welcome to the boards!

Rudy is great at what he does, but he needs to be great because he is a detriment in other areas. A mobile center that could shoot three’s would let us play five-out on offense, and make more room for Randle and Ant drives. But the team has relied on Gobert-level defense for its identity. We’ve never been a good offense, but we still win because our defense is so overwhelming with good perimeter defenders who can play up on their man and gamble because they have Rudy behind them.

Mobility would definitely help the offense, but it would need to be accompanied by an elite defensive center too. Naz is no rim protector and neither is Randle. If we had a center who was mobile, could shoot three’s, AND defend the rim, we’d be better. But at this point, we’re talking about Bam and maybe Mobley, and both are stars on their own teams and unlikely to be available.

Myles Turner.

[shrink]

So like many of us, I’ve been trying to come up with the right player to trade Randle for to improve the overall team. Like any trade, we will be trying to give up something, to get something we need more. The general perception is that Randle doesn’t defend hard enough, and he’s too willing to drive instead of pass. But what categories can we give up in Randle to trade for a player that’s better in others.

For example, Randle is our #2 scorer. Do we need a #2 scorer in return? Some people hope Naz could step into that role, but we don’t know. Even with Randle, the team is 23rd in scoring, so it seems like we need a scorer.

Randle is our #1 assist guy. Do we need a #1 assist guy in return? With Conley struggling and no true back up PG on the roster except Dilly, that’s a hard category to take a step back in. Even with Randle, the team is #22 in assists, so it seems like we need assists back.

Randle is our #2 rebound guy. Do we need a #2 rebound guy back? Gobert gets his, but Naz and Jaden have never been great rebounders. Even with Randle, the team is #19 in rebounding, so it seems like we need a rebounder back too.

To me, we can’t take a step back in any of those three categories we’re already bad at. And to replace Randle, we’d want a player that can do these things, PLUS swing the ball more, plus be a better defender. I doubt we can find that with our trade assets.


To be honest, this exercise reminds me of the people last year that were often demanding we trade Towns, and they would focus on the things he can’t do. Many of those same people are now doing the same with Randle, and it makes me wonder if this is a poster problem, with a few people that can only see the negatives in players they don’t like, and can’t see the necessary things they bring.

[winforlose]

So like many of us, I’ve been trying to come up with the right player to trade Randle for to improve the overall team. Like any trade, we will be trying to give up something, to get something we need more. The general perception is that Randle doesn’t defend hard enough, and he’s too willing to drive instead of pass. But what categories can we give up in Randle to trade for a player that’s better in others.

For example, Randle is our #2 scorer. Do we need a #2 scorer in return? Some people hope Naz could step into that role, but we don’t know. Even with Randle, the team is 23rd in scoring, so it seems like we need a scorer.

Randle is our #1 assist guy. Do we need a #1 assist guy in return? With Conley struggling and no true back up PG on the roster except Dilly, that’s a hard category to take a step back in. Even with Randle, the team is #22 in assists, so it seems like we need assists back.

Randle is our #2 rebound guy. Do we need a #2 rebound guy back? Gobert gets his, but Naz and Jaden have never been great rebounders. Even with Randle, the team is #19 in rebounding, so it seems like we need a rebounder back too.

To me, we can’t take a step back on those three categories we’re already bad at. And to replace Randle, we’d want a player that can do these things, PLUS swing the ball more, plus be a better defender. I doubt we can find that with our trade assets.


To be honest, this exercise reminds me of the people last year that were often demanding we trade Towns, and they would focus on the things he can’t do. Many of those same people are now doing the same with Randle, and it makes me wonder if this is a poster problem, with a few people that can only see the negatives in players they don’t like, and can’t see the necessary things they bring.

As Mike said, “When I'm just out there running corner to corner and not really being myself, you could start anyone at that point...." Would Randle be leading the team in assists if Mike was allowed to run the PG? What about if we trade for a PG and move Mike to PG2? Randle leads the team in assists but how does he rank in usage rates? How does that usage rate affect everything else?

Rebounding is an issue. Rudy is a great rebounder. When Rudy is out Randle is essentially the 5. Get a real backup C and you can expect that to change.

The bigger issue is asking whether playing without a proper PG and C but using Randle as a hybrid of these is better or worst than a 9 or 10 man rotation with proper roster balance? I think not only does Randle make the defense worse, but he makes every other problem look worse. More ball movement will get better scoring out of everyone else. More size will lead to more rebounds and ending possessions with defensive rebounds instead of opponent 2nd chance points. I think more ball movement leads to more assisting overall. Naz playing more minutes tends to increase his scoring.

What we really need is another creator who can also develop some gravity. I like DeJounte Murray for that, but good luck getting him. Everything depends on whose available and how much trade value Randle can generate.

[frankenwolf]

So like many of us, I’ve been trying to come up with the right player to trade Randle for to improve the overall team. Like any trade, we will be trying to give up something, to get something we need more. The general perception is that Randle doesn’t defend hard enough, and he’s too willing to drive instead of pass. But what categories can we give up in Randle to trade for a player that’s better in others.

For example, Randle is our #2 scorer. Do we need a #2 scorer in return? Some people hope Naz could step into that role, but we don’t know. Even with Randle, the team is 23rd in scoring, so it seems like we need a scorer.

Randle is our #1 assist guy. Do we need a #1 assist guy in return? With Conley struggling and no true back up PG on the roster except Dilly, that’s a hard category to take a step back in. Even with Randle, the team is #22 in assists, so it seems like we need assists back.

Randle is our #2 rebound guy. Do we need a #2 rebound guy back? Gobert gets his, but Naz and Jaden have never been great rebounders. Even with Randle, the team is #19 in rebounding, so it seems like we need a rebounder back too.

To me, we can’t take a step back in any of those three categories we’re already bad at. And to replace Randle, we’d want a player that can do these things, PLUS swing the ball more, plus be a better defender. I doubt we can find that with our trade assets.


To be honest, this exercise reminds me of the people last year that were often demanding we trade Towns, and they would focus on the things he can’t do. Many of those same people are now doing the same with Randle, and it makes me wonder if this is a poster problem, with a few people that can only see the negatives in players they don’t like, and can’t see the necessary things they bring.

Yes, there are those who will only focus on negative energy and forget the positive energy that each player provides. There is the problem of how certain players fit with other teams and what the team is trying to do. I really think Randle wants to fit and do what Finch wants, but it seems to me that the other players don't always do what Randle expects them to. With the changes in the starting lineup the past two games, we may be getting better flow as we work out the kinks (again). Kudos to Mike for doing whatever is asked of him. Maybe this will unlock Ant & Randle, but I'm not holding my breath. I'm still in favor of trading Randle.

[WentzerWuver]

Two things are true at once.

1. Finch likes Randle.
2. We are a better team if Randle is on a different roster.

You finally learned why no one wanted Randy. Some will never learn that KAT was so much better!

https://youtu.be/gBfU3ltj5t8?si=sUnUyuOoVi1taBte

1. Last year I went to the NYK board and suggested KAT for Randle. That is the value difference I assign to the 2 players.
2. Let’s make no mistake, Randle has real value. Just because a player doesn’t fit here doesn’t mean he won’t fit elsewhere. LAL would love to have Randle. Miami would love to have Randle. I could see the 76ers doing better with him than with this version of PG. The list goes on. As I said in the previous post 2 things can be true at once. Naz is a better fit as a starter than Randle, but Randle is an NBA starter on multiple other NBA teams.

You type the following now after you wanted Randy last season cause you now realized he is an inefficient turnover machine like most knew he was...

2. We are a better team if Randle is on a different roster.

Now you want to get rid him to others teams cause they are better fit which NOT TRUE! The Lakers released him after drafting him cause his play reminds them of Westy Lol. And Riley would laugh knowing he would NOT fit the Heat culture. It would NEVER happen....

https://youtube.com/shorts/cKY34E7awyY?si=MdSGwJiVb-_nzYIU

Like EVERRR!!!

[Klomp]

So like many of us, I’ve been trying to come up with the right player to trade Randle for to improve the overall team. Like any trade, we will be trying to give up something, to get something we need more. The general perception is that Randle doesn’t defend hard enough, and he’s too willing to drive instead of pass. But what categories can we give up in Randle to trade for a player that’s better in others.

For example, Randle is our #2 scorer. Do we need a #2 scorer in return? Some people hope Naz could step into that role, but we don’t know. The team is 23rd in scoring.

Randle is our #1 assist guy. Do we need a #1 assist guy in return? With Conley struggling and no true back up PG on the roster except Dilly, that’s a hard category to take a step back in. The team is #22 in assists.

Randle is our #2 rebound guy. Do we need a #2 rebound guy back? Gobert gets his, but Naz and Jaden have never been great rebounders. The team is #19 in rebounding.

To me, we can’t take a step back on three categories we’re already bad at. And to replace Randle, we’d want a player that can do these things, PLUS swing the ball more, plus be a better defender. I doubt we can find that with our trade assets.


To be honest, this exercise reminds me of the people last year that were often demanding we trade Towns, and they would focus on the things he can’t do. Many of those same people are now doing the same with Randle, and it makes me wonder if this is a poster problem, with a few people that can only see the negatives in players they don’t like.

I think this is a really thoughtful post, and it hits on some of the things too somewhat that I said in a post on the Minott thread.

To your point, I think it's easy for fans to have idealized version of what a player should look like at a certain position. It many times goes back to what the team had at that position in some of the franchise's highest moments. For example, I would say Case Keenum never gave Vikings fans the same feelings as Brett Favre or Randall Cunningham or even Daunte Culpepper. In basketball, it seems power forwards in this market will always fall short of the standard set by Kevin Garnett while point guards in this market will always be compared to Ricky Rubio and Sam Cassell.

What if Nuggets fans never gave Nikola Jokic a fair shake because he couldn't protect the paint like Dikembe Mutombo? What if Boston held it against Jayson Tatum that he isn't as good of a shooter as Larry Bird?

But teams change. Franchises change head coaches and systems. Roster construction preferences change. Salary cap situations change, and franchises have to evolve with the times the best way they can. Salary cap constraints force teams to pick and choose where to pour their assets into. There might be a position easier to fill on the open market or through smaller trades due to the system they run and the importance of the position in the offense and defense. So they are willing to sacrifice something at one position in order to gain more at another.

Could that be PF for us? Randle might not be "as good" as KAT here, but does he have to be? We saw the system run just fine when Naz would be in there or even when Kyle would be there.

[frankenwolf]

What we really need is another creator who can also develop some gravity. I like DeJounte Murray for that, but good luck getting him. Everything depends on whose available and how much trade value Randle can generate.

Yes, if we could get Murray for Randle that would be great, but I don't think that would fill the other hole you want filled, a back up 5. I don't do trade machine, because I'm terrible at it, but can you figure a trade that NO & MN would do for those two and bring in a backup 5? I'm sure it would be a three team set up.

[Klomp]

So like many of us, I’ve been trying to come up with the right player to trade Randle for to improve the overall team. Like any trade, we will be trying to give up something, to get something we need more. The general perception is that Randle doesn’t defend hard enough, and he’s too willing to drive instead of pass. But what categories can we give up in Randle to trade for a player that’s better in others.

For example, Randle is our #2 scorer. Do we need a #2 scorer in return? Some people hope Naz could step into that role, but we don’t know. Even with Randle, the team is 23rd in scoring, so it seems like we need a scorer.

Randle is our #1 assist guy. Do we need a #1 assist guy in return? With Conley struggling and no true back up PG on the roster except Dilly, that’s a hard category to take a step back in. Even with Randle, the team is #22 in assists, so it seems like we need assists back.

Randle is our #2 rebound guy. Do we need a #2 rebound guy back? Gobert gets his, but Naz and Jaden have never been great rebounders. Even with Randle, the team is #19 in rebounding, so it seems like we need a rebounder back too.

To me, we can’t take a step back on those three categories we’re already bad at. And to replace Randle, we’d want a player that can do these things, PLUS swing the ball more, plus be a better defender. I doubt we can find that with our trade assets.


To be honest, this exercise reminds me of the people last year that were often demanding we trade Towns, and they would focus on the things he can’t do. Many of those same people are now doing the same with Randle, and it makes me wonder if this is a poster problem, with a few people that can only see the negatives in players they don’t like, and can’t see the necessary things they bring.

As Mike said, “When I'm just out there running corner to corner and not really being myself, you could start anyone at that point...." Would Randle be leading the team in assists if Mike was allowed to run the PG? What about if we trade for a PG and move Mike to PG2? Randle leads the team in assists but how does he rank in usage rates? How does that usage rate affect everything else?

Rebounding is an issue. Rudy is a great rebounder. When Rudy is out Randle is essentially the 5. Get a real backup C and you can expect that to change.

The bigger issue is asking whether playing without a proper PG and C but using Randle as a hybrid of these is better or worst than a 9 or 10 man rotation with proper roster balance? I think not only does Randle make the defense worse, but he makes every other problem look worse. More ball movement will get better scoring out of everyone else. More size will lead to more rebounds and ending possessions with defensive rebounds instead of opponent 2nd chance points. I think more ball movement leads to more assisting overall. Naz playing more minutes tends to increase his scoring.

What we really need is another creator who can also develop some gravity. I like DeJounte Murray for that, but good luck getting him. Everything depends on whose available and how much trade value Randle can generate.

So for better spacing (ie. gravity, as you put it), you want to trade for a PG who is shooting under 38% from the field and under 25% on 3-pointers?

[winforlose]

What we really need is another creator who can also develop some gravity. I like DeJounte Murray for that, but good luck getting him. Everything depends on whose available and how much trade value Randle can generate.

Yes, if we could get Murray for Randle that would be great, but I don't think that would fill the other hole you want filled, a back up 5. I don't do trade machine, because I'm terrible at it, but can you figure a trade that NO & MN would do for those two and bring in a backup 5? I'm sure it would be a three team set up.

At this point you might just grab one of the backup Cs that got released and see if you can develop them into a 15 MPG C2.

[winforlose]

So like many of us, I’ve been trying to come up with the right player to trade Randle for to improve the overall team. Like any trade, we will be trying to give up something, to get something we need more. The general perception is that Randle doesn’t defend hard enough, and he’s too willing to drive instead of pass. But what categories can we give up in Randle to trade for a player that’s better in others.

For example, Randle is our #2 scorer. Do we need a #2 scorer in return? Some people hope Naz could step into that role, but we don’t know. Even with Randle, the team is 23rd in scoring, so it seems like we need a scorer.

Randle is our #1 assist guy. Do we need a #1 assist guy in return? With Conley struggling and no true back up PG on the roster except Dilly, that’s a hard category to take a step back in. Even with Randle, the team is #22 in assists, so it seems like we need assists back.

Randle is our #2 rebound guy. Do we need a #2 rebound guy back? Gobert gets his, but Naz and Jaden have never been great rebounders. Even with Randle, the team is #19 in rebounding, so it seems like we need a rebounder back too.

To me, we can’t take a step back on those three categories we’re already bad at. And to replace Randle, we’d want a player that can do these things, PLUS swing the ball more, plus be a better defender. I doubt we can find that with our trade assets.


To be honest, this exercise reminds me of the people last year that were often demanding we trade Towns, and they would focus on the things he can’t do. Many of those same people are now doing the same with Randle, and it makes me wonder if this is a poster problem, with a few people that can only see the negatives in players they don’t like, and can’t see the necessary things they bring.

As Mike said, “When I'm just out there running corner to corner and not really being myself, you could start anyone at that point...." Would Randle be leading the team in assists if Mike was allowed to run the PG? What about if we trade for a PG and move Mike to PG2? Randle leads the team in assists but how does he rank in usage rates? How does that usage rate affect everything else?

Rebounding is an issue. Rudy is a great rebounder. When Rudy is out Randle is essentially the 5. Get a real backup C and you can expect that to change.

The bigger issue is asking whether playing without a proper PG and C but using Randle as a hybrid of these is better or worst than a 9 or 10 man rotation with proper roster balance? I think not only does Randle make the defense worse, but he makes every other problem look worse. More ball movement will get better scoring out of everyone else. More size will lead to more rebounds and ending possessions with defensive rebounds instead of opponent 2nd chance points. I think more ball movement leads to more assisting overall. Naz playing more minutes tends to increase his scoring.

What we really need is another creator who can also develop some gravity. I like DeJounte Murray for that, but good luck getting him. Everything depends on whose available and how much trade value Randle can generate.

So for better spacing (ie. gravity, as you put it), you want to trade for a PG who is shooting under 38% from the field and under 25% on 3-pointers?

100% yes. Absolutely I do. I have seen DJM’s upside and I think on a roster with Ant competing for something, he will be what we need.

[BlacJacMac]

What we really need is another creator who can also develop some gravity. I like DeJounte Murray for that, but good luck getting him. Everything depends on whose available and how much trade value Randle can generate.

Yes, if we could get Murray for Randle that would be great, but I don't think that would fill the other hole you want filled, a back up 5. I don't do trade machine, because I'm terrible at it, but can you figure a trade that NO & MN would do for those two and bring in a backup 5? I'm sure it would be a three team set up.

Murray and Messi for Randle and the Detroit pick would be a godsend.

But, The Pelicans would laugh and hang up on us...

[winforlose]

What we really need is another creator who can also develop some gravity. I like DeJounte Murray for that, but good luck getting him. Everything depends on whose available and how much trade value Randle can generate.

Yes, if we could get Murray for Randle that would be great, but I don't think that would fill the other hole you want filled, a back up 5. I don't do trade machine, because I'm terrible at it, but can you figure a trade that NO & MN would do for those two and bring in a backup 5? I'm sure it would be a three team set up.

Murray and Messi for Randle and the Detroit pick would be a godsend.

But, The Pelicans would laugh and hang up on us...

True. I didn’t know Messi was a ROTY candidate until last night. But I never said Messi’s name, you did. DJM for Randle and the pick plus signing on of the recently cut Cs would be good enough for me.

[Klomp]

Yeah Missi is not going to happen. I don't even know if including Dillingham would get it done.

[shrink]

The bigger issue is asking whether playing without a proper PG and C but using Randle as a hybrid of these is better or worst than a 9 or 10 man rotation with proper roster balance?

I think that’s a good way to look at the problem. But if you turn Randle into 2-3 players to try to cover all the holes in the dam he has his fingers in already, say goodbye to giving minutes to develop young players too. Finch won’t run an 11-12 man rotation.

There is value to consolidating talent in star players, because only five can be on the court at a time. Even if we were able to trade Randle for a 20 PPG point guard, when we play him our rebounds will drop. If we are covering rebounds by playing our back up center, points and assists will fall.

I agree with everyone, that I don’t think Randle is a perfect fit. Neither was Towns. Star players aren’t perfect, but they help you in a lot of team needs, all over the board. I would be more focused right now on moving other pieces to fix our needs, rather than fixating on the things we don’t like about Randle. He is improving, and fitting in better, asked to do many new things.