Kevin Durant

[shrink]

Can we sign and trade and combine them in a deal for Durant? Could we combine a sign and traded Randle or NAW with other players in the deal?.

It is legal to combine sign-and-traded players with other players in a trade.

There’s been a rumor out there for several years that the CBA prevents this, but it’s not true. For example, remember how many S&T’s the Knicks had to combine and trade to CHA to complete the KAT trade?

I thought there was something that if you’re over the first apron (maybe it’s the second apron), you cannot receive a player signed/traded unless after the trade you are under that apron. I feel us and the Suns are still over the first apron once the offseason starts. The Suns might be over the second apron still.

You are correct. Teams need to be under the first apron to acquire a player in a sign-and-trade, or do a deal where they take back more money. Both are pretty harsh restrictions for the first apron. And I would add that acquiring a player in a S&T would hardcap the team’s payroll at the first apron for the rest of the season.

Fortunately, next year the first apron will rise to $195,946,000, PHX can do some work to get there. And we can only combine players, and MAKE a S&T, if we stay under the second apron, which rises to $207,825,000.

But yes, a deal can legally combine a regular salary with a S&T.

[Domejandro]

It is legal to combine sign-and-traded players with other players in a trade.

There’s been a rumor out there for several years that the CBA prevents this, but it’s not true. For example, remember how many S&T’s the Knicks had to combine and trade to CHA to complete the KAT trade?

I thought there was something that if you’re over the first apron (maybe it’s the second apron), you cannot receive a player signed/traded unless after the trade you are under that apron. I feel us and the Suns are still over the first apron once the offseason starts. The Suns might be over the second apron still.

You are correct. Teams need to be under the first apron to acquire a player in a sign-and-trade, or do a deal where they take back more money. Both are pretty harsh restrictions for the first apron. And I would add that acquiring a player in a S&T would hardcap the team’s payroll at the first apron for the rest of the season.

Fortunately, next year the first apron will rise to $195,946,000, PHX can do some work to get there. And we can only combine players, and MAKE a S&T, if we stay under the second apron, which rises to $207,825,000.

But yes, a deal can legally combine a regular salary with a S&T.

I think that a Kevin Durant trade would go down during Draft time, but in theory, Detroit might be a good partner for sign-and-trading Naz Reid to. Compensate them with a couple seconds for capping themselves at the First Apron.

[guest81]

I thought there was something that if you’re over the first apron (maybe it’s the second apron), you cannot receive a player signed/traded unless after the trade you are under that apron. I feel us and the Suns are still over the first apron once the offseason starts. The Suns might be over the second apron still.

You are correct. Teams need to be under the first apron to acquire a player in a sign-and-trade, or do a deal where they take back more money. Both are pretty harsh restrictions for the first apron. And I would add that acquiring a player in a S&T would hardcap the team’s payroll at the first apron for the rest of the season.

Fortunately, next year the first apron will rise to $195,946,000, PHX can do some work to get there. And we can only combine players, and MAKE a S&T, if we stay under the second apron, which rises to $207,825,000.

But yes, a deal can legally combine a regular salary with a S&T.

I think that a Kevin Durant trade would go down during Draft time, but in theory, Detroit might be a good partner for sign-and-trading Naz Reid to. Compensate them with a couple seconds for capping themselves at the First Apron.

You want to dump Naz and give picks? Is this Kevin McHale?

[BlacJacMac]

I thought there was something that if you’re over the first apron (maybe it’s the second apron), you cannot receive a player signed/traded unless after the trade you are under that apron. I feel us and the Suns are still over the first apron once the offseason starts. The Suns might be over the second apron still.

You are correct. Teams need to be under the first apron to acquire a player in a sign-and-trade, or do a deal where they take back more money. Both are pretty harsh restrictions for the first apron. And I would add that acquiring a player in a S&T would hardcap the team’s payroll at the first apron for the rest of the season.

Fortunately, next year the first apron will rise to $195,946,000, PHX can do some work to get there. And we can only combine players, and MAKE a S&T, if we stay under the second apron, which rises to $207,825,000.

But yes, a deal can legally combine a regular salary with a S&T.

I think that a Kevin Durant trade would go down during Draft time, but in theory, Detroit might be a good partner for sign-and-trading Naz Reid to. Compensate them with a couple seconds for capping themselves at the First Apron.

Wait. Who are we getting from Detroit for Naz?

[Domejandro]

You want to dump Naz and give picks? Is this Kevin McHale?

Wait. Who are we getting from Detroit for Naz?

You guys are misunderstanding, the point is that it helps if Minnesota wants to utilize Naz Reid as a salary filler. For example, if Detroit already wants to offer Naz something like $100MM/4 years (they have roughly the cap-space to do so if they renounce cap holds), it may make more sense to offer them a second or two to turn it into a sign-and-trade (which would limit them as a under First Apron team for the rest of the season).

It is a common strategy for teams to offer minor value in exchange for teams hard-capping themselves with sign-and-trades. It would be particularly valuable in this sort of trade framework. By function, you would be leveraging Naz Reid's new contract to trade for Kevin Durant, rather than having to dump Rudy or gut the entire roster (Naz has zero incentive to pick up his Player-Option just to be traded, when Detriot can offer him more money outright).

Rough Outline (not going into detail)

DET: Naz Reid and seconds
OUT: Cap Space (Could also do Isaiah Stewart to Phoenix and have Detroit pay Phoenix minor value.)

MIN: Kevin Durant
OUT: Julius Randle, Naz Reid, and Draft Capital

PHX: Julius Randle and Draft Capital
OUT: Kevin Durant

The interesting thing about this kind of framework is that it enables a lot of funky four-team frameworks (I would presume it makes more sense with Isaiah Stewart going the Phoenix in exchange for Detroit giving minor value to Phoenix, but assuming Detroit is facilitating purely with cap-space). Does a team want to dump a hefty contract (up to $23.7MM)? Then they can send that contract to Phoenix and give Phoenix Draft capital for doing so. Does Phoenix want to target a supplementary player? Then they have the capacity to do so under that financial threshold with their assets + Minnesota's assets.

Mike Conley / Rob Dillingham
Anthony Edwards / Donte DiVincenzo / Jaylen Clark
Jaden McDaniels / Terrence Shannon Jr.
Kevin Durant / Leonard Miller / Josh Minott
Rudy Gobert /

Free-Agents: Nickeil Alexander-Walker, Luka Garza, Joe Ingles (probably retiring), and two-way players.
Note: Probably would send out Josh Minott (or whomever) for salary matching in the trade.


In the end, it is largely just a framework. It is pretty easy to substitute other teams in as third teams who send a player (and potential value) to Phoenix. Personally, I think that it is unrealistic that any Kevin Durant trade happens which involves a sign-and-trade, but it is technically possible.

[guest81]

You want to dump Naz and give picks? Is this Kevin McHale?

Wait. Who are we getting from Detroit for Naz?

You guys are misunderstanding, the point is that it helps if Minnesota wants to utilize Naz Reid as a salary filler. For example, if Detroit already wants to offer Naz something like $100MM/4 years (they have roughly the cap-space to do so if they renounce cap holds), it may make more sense to offer them a second or two to turn it into a sign-and-trade (which would limit them as a under First Apron team for the rest of the season).

It is a common strategy for teams to offer minor value in exchange for teams hard-capping themselves with sign-and-trades. It would be particularly valuable in this sort of trade framework. By function, you would be leveraging Naz Reid's new contract to trade for Kevin Durant, rather than having to dump Rudy or gut the entire roster (Naz has zero incentive to pick up his Player-Option just to be traded, when Detriot can offer him more money outright).

Rough Outline (not going into detail)

DET: Naz Reid and seconds
OUT: Cap Space (Could also do Isaiah Stewart to Phoenix and have Detroit pay Phoenix minor value.)

MIN: Kevin Durant
OUT: Julius Randle, Naz Reid, and Draft Capital

PHX: Julius Randle and Draft Capital
OUT: Kevin Durant

The interesting thing about this kind of framework is that it enables a lot of funky four-team frameworks (I would presume it makes more sense with Isaiah Stewart going the Phoenix in exchange for Detroit giving minor value to Phoenix, but assuming Detroit is facilitating purely with cap-space). Does a team want to dump a hefty contract (up to $23.7MM)? Then they can send that contract to Phoenix and give Phoenix Draft capital for doing so. Does Phoenix want to target a supplementary player? Then they have the capacity to do so under that financial threshold with their assets + Minnesota's assets.

Mike Conley / Rob Dillingham
Anthony Edwards / Donte DiVincenzo / Jaylen Clark
Jaden McDaniels / Terrence Shannon Jr.
Kevin Durant / Leonard Miller / Josh Minott
Rudy Gobert /

Free-Agents: Nickeil Alexander-Walker, Luka Garza, Joe Ingles (probably retiring), and two-way players.
Note: Probably would send out Josh Minott (or whomever) for salary matching in the trade.


In the end, it is largely just a framework. It is pretty easy to substitute other teams in as third teams who send a player (and potential value) to Phoenix. Personally, I think that it is unrealistic that any Kevin Durant trade happens which involves a sign-and-trade, but it is technically possible.

Wolves got 3 seconds for dlo ( plus other stuff) and Naz is a way more valuable player. Naz is a positive asset. Zero reason to GIVE picks.

[Domejandro]

Wolves got 3 seconds for dlo ( plus other stuff) and Naz is a way more valuable player. Naz is a positive asset. Zero reason to GIVE picks.

Respectfully, you are again completely misunderstanding the point. Firstly, that wasn't even a sign-and-trade, so the comparison is totally unrelated and bizarre; absolutely no idea why that is relevant, it isn't even apples to oranges.

Again, Minnesota would be kicking in minor value to use Detroit's cap-space. Being very clear and repeating it, Detroit has the cap-space to offer Naz Reid that contract anyways without conducting a trade. Minnesota benefits by being able to send Naz Reid out at a signficantly higher number for salary matching, and Detroit gets the minor value just for facilitating a signing that they were doing anyways (in this scenario) in exchange for being hard-capped under the First Apron.

It is (functionally) trading for Detroit's cap-space, not paying to dump Naz Reid. That is where the disconnect is.


EDIT: For example, Golden State traded a protected first to turn Kevin Durant into D'Angelo Russell and filler (link). Why would they do that? Because they wanted to maintain flexibility for future trades with D'Angelo Russell's salary slot. Nobody would ever say "Wow, Golden State traded a First Round Draft Pick with Kevin Durant for D'Angelo Russell!" because that completely omits the context of the trade.

Fun fact, Golden State won an NBA Championship off of that trade by later routing D'Angelo Russell to Minnesota for Andrew Wiggins. In similar function, Minnesota would be utilizing Detroit's cap-space to maintain depth and/or Rudy Gobert in a Kevin Durant trade, rather than paying Naz Reid a huge contract after gutting the roster for Kevin Durant. It is about the broader context of the deal, when analyzing sign-and-trades.

[Krapinsky]

I am pretty sure Rob, Randle, Dante, and Miller for Durant works and I think value is about right. Dante could be shopped to third team to better balance Suns roster.

[Dewey]

I am pretty sure Rob, Randle, Dante, and Miller for Durant works and I think value is about right. Dante could be shopped to third team to better balance Suns roster.

Done

[jpatrick]

I am pretty sure Rob, Randle, Dante, and Miller for Durant works and I think value is about right. Dante could be shopped to third team to better balance Suns roster.

Done

We can easily be outbid if the Rockets or Spurs put their chips in, but if do get Durant, I’d guess this is the general outline of what we give up. Maybe we add a pick.

But it’s going to be complex because DDV and even Dilly don’t really fit what the Suns need. I’d guess two other teams are needed. Maybe the Nets to take Dilly (maybe some salary) and sending Gafford to the Suns, who desperately need a defensive center. DDV, who duplicates Grayson Allen, going to a contender in exchange for something the suns want or a pick as well

[BlacJacMac]

The Phoenix Suns have been aggressive in their conversations with the Houston Rockets on a trade involving Kevin Durant. The Suns are attempting to regain control of their draft picks owned by the Rockets beginning with the No. 10 pick in the draft.

The Suns have gradually lowered their asking price for Durant. While there is a price that would make sense for the Rockets to add Durant to their otherwise young core, there is doubt about whether a deal will come to fruition.

Long-term interest in Devin Booker has cooled for the Rockets. Booker was long seen as a preferred target for the Rockets over Durant, but he is coming off a disappointing season and is on a long-term, expensive contract that he is expected to extend even further with the Suns this offseason.

Durant would likely require an extension upon his acquisition, but it would be for fewer seasons than Booker.

Kelly Iko/The Athletic

[Klomp]

The Phoenix Suns have been aggressive in their conversations with the Houston Rockets on a trade involving Kevin Durant. The Suns are attempting to regain control of their draft picks owned by the Rockets beginning with the No. 10 pick in the draft.

The Suns have gradually lowered their asking price for Durant. While there is a price that would make sense for the Rockets to add Durant to their otherwise young core, there is doubt about whether a deal will come to fruition.

Long-term interest in Devin Booker has cooled for the Rockets. Booker was long seen as a preferred target for the Rockets over Durant, but he is coming off a disappointing season and is on a long-term, expensive contract that he is expected to extend even further with the Suns this offseason.

Durant would likely require an extension upon his acquisition, but it would be for fewer seasons than Booker.

Kelly Iko/The Athletic

So Phoenix wants a center, but also wants control of their picks?

What about a three-way, where Durant goes to Houston, Phoenix gets Gobert and their picks, and we get maybe something like Jabari Smith Jr and Dillon Brooks?

[BlacJacMac]

The Phoenix Suns have been aggressive in their conversations with the Houston Rockets on a trade involving Kevin Durant. The Suns are attempting to regain control of their draft picks owned by the Rockets beginning with the No. 10 pick in the draft.

The Suns have gradually lowered their asking price for Durant. While there is a price that would make sense for the Rockets to add Durant to their otherwise young core, there is doubt about whether a deal will come to fruition.

Long-term interest in Devin Booker has cooled for the Rockets. Booker was long seen as a preferred target for the Rockets over Durant, but he is coming off a disappointing season and is on a long-term, expensive contract that he is expected to extend even further with the Suns this offseason.

Durant would likely require an extension upon his acquisition, but it would be for fewer seasons than Booker.

Kelly Iko/The Athletic

So Phoenix wants a center, but also wants control of their picks?

What about a three-way, where Durant goes to Houston, Phoenix gets Gobert and their picks, and we get maybe something like Jabari Smith Jr and Dillon Brooks?

I don't want to have to root for Dillon Brooks...

And we would need to find a starting Center somewhere.

(But I think Phoenix wants their picks back more than they're worried about fit.)

[Klomp]

I don't want to have to root for Dillon Brooks...

I once felt the same way about Patrick Beverley

[jpatrick]

Is a Suns/Knicks trade inevitable? We already have the rumors that the Knick players don’t like Towns. Thibs, who wanted Towns, is gone. Suns don’t want to tank and need a center. And uniting Towns and Booker has been rumored as something they want forever. Even salaries are close.

[Klomp]

Is a Suns/Knicks trade inevitable? We already have the rumors that the Knick players don’t like Towns. Thibs, who wanted Towns, is gone. Suns don’t want to tank and need a center. And uniting Towns and Booker has been rumored as something they want forever. Even salaries are close.

Not necessarily

[Klomp]

This was a FASCINATING discussion, especially towards the end when they started talking about how a potential Durant trade could work.

Watch on YouTube

I personally hadn't thought about using the sign and trade mechanism as a way to perfectly line up the dollar amounts (so that neither team takes in more than they send out) in order to make a trade legal for two second apron teams.

[shrink]

Yossi Gazlan, for those that don’t know, if one of the smartest CBA experts in the world.

Dane Moore tries at least, but he is not very good at CBA stuff.

[Klomp]

Yossi Gazlan, for those that don’t know, if one of the smartest CBA experts in the world.

Dane Moore tries at least, but he is not very good at CBA stuff.

Did you watch the part I referenced? Do you feel like everything checks out? On the trade board, some posters were expressing some doubts about if something could be pulled off.

[cmoss84]

I just don't see any chance of Suns getting off of Beal's contract. How does he figure into their trade option equations? As far as his cap holds and their positions in need and players who fit with him best...