Butler has requested a trade (Part II)

[minimus]

Personally I would prefer a sf. Eric Gordon may be a good player but I think we need to trade for a sf in order to move Wiggins to sg position.
I prefer Tobias Harris if Clippers are interested.
He is a good 3pt shooter, he is athletic, he has length and he can create his own shoot.
Porter is a good role player who has a superstar contract.

Yeah, I also prefer an athletic SF/PF who can hit open 3s at high rate. However, I think that 2019 FA market will be another story of how GM should NOT overpay player, but they still would. It means for us that Harris and any other big FA will be overpaid, that is expectation. That is why I think that our deal with HOU built around Tucker, Gordon and FRP or a deal around RoCo and FRP or Richardson, Bam and FRP are best type of deals for us. Get a solid wing on good contract. Please no Porter or incoming heavy contracts. I'd rather see Dieng and Teague with us that Waiters and other scrub.

Also I find it very unreasonable that we let Bjelica go and Thibs has not started any type of contract extension talks with Tyus. Are they hoping to get better FAs? Well, it will be 100% that Thibs will need to overpay him, because he overpaid Teague, Dieng, Gibson, tried to overpay Shabazz. This type of GM incompetence should end.

[TheProdigy]

I think KAT can be uncomfortable for a few months while things are sorted out. It's pretty clearly KAT's team going forward and it's also clear Butler isn't going to be around long term. I would find it hard to believe that KAT isn't willing to let the team work through the trade process in an intelligent way that gets the team as good a deal as possible (which is unlikely to happen in the next few days or even few weeks).

Why do you think that? What has KAT, or any of this young generation of stats, done to make you think he will go through months of discomfort? Was it his hold out on signing the extension?

When I read things like this it makes me start to really dislike KAT. The poor baby getting paid almost 40 million a year for playing a game might be made uncomfortable. Man up and be a professional. It should be about the team and not about himself.

Agreed. This is the thing that will prevent him from reaching legendary status. Until he learns that team comes first, he will just be a guy putting up empty stats on a losing team.

[TheProdigy]

Also I find it very unreasonable that we let Bjelica go and Thibs has not started any type of contract extension talks with Tyus. Are they hoping to get better FAs? Well, it will be 100% that Thibs will need to overpay him, because he overpaid Teague, Dieng, Gibson, tried to overpay Shabazz. This type of GM incompetence should end.

The 2017 offseason will be remembered as the time Thibs destroyed the Wolves. David Kahn would be proud.

[KGdaBom]

He is good, I don't see any team saying... oh man, don't let Porter get on a role, he'll carry them.

He had 16 20+ games last year, he also had 16 games of 9 or few points.

Also 4 seasons he's made the playoffs averaging 10 pts, 6.3 reb, 1.6 ast.

2 max slots and getting 4 total assists from the 2 of them.... maybe the PF or Towns will pick up those assist numbers.

I will be happy to take the total package he brings. The ridiculous offensive efficiency. The rebounding and the Defense. Players like Porter win games for a team.

It is not Scottie Pippen, it is Otto Porter. We need a player like him, but we should avoid a role player with such contract. Unless his name is Dray Green, Klay Thompson. Otto signed this contract because BRO offered him such money. Saying this, I'd perfectly fine with Porter as 3rd option if we did not have Dieng, Teague, Aldrich, Gibson contracts. That is a bunch a bad contract that are hurting us.

For the way Gibson played last year he is a good contract. Teague is an OK contract. Aldrich is no longer on the team. Gorgui was a very good player until last year. I don't get why just because Gibson played ahead of him his game went to crap.

[KGdaBom]

Personally I would prefer a sf. Eric Gordon may be a good player but I think we need to trade for a sf in order to move Wiggins to sg position.
I prefer Tobias Harris if Clippers are interested.
He is a good 3pt shooter, he is athletic, he has length and he can create his own shoot.
Porter is a good role player who has a superstar contract.

This role player stuff about Porter really bothers me. There is more to basketball than how many total points a player scores. Porter scores with ridiculous efficiency while doing everything else well. Wiggins will score more points than Porter, but Porter is a much better player.
I like Harris. He is a very good player, but Porter is a better player.

Porter scores with efficiency because he is a good shooter and John Wall(mainly) and Beal create for him. He does not have offensive game except shooting.
If he was such a good player like his contract says the Wizzards would have been a much better team. Wall and Beal are really good players if they had one more player in their level Wizzards would have been a great team.
And why do you compare Porter with Wiggins? This is a Butler trade, we give Butler and we try to find a player to fill his gap. So I think it is better to compare the possible trade assets from other teams and who is better to come to the Wolves.
So, about the comparison with Harris I think that Harris is more gifted offensively and he can help in 2 positions sf/pf.
So, we can play some minutes with small ball and 2 pgs having Wiggins at 3 and Harris at 4.
The problem that I recognize in Harris case is that he is an expiring contract and we need to assure that he will resign

I compared Porter to Wiggins because Wiggins is a player we are all very familiar with that scored 23 PPG and yet Porter was a much better player. No point in comparing him to Butler because there is no comparison. Butler is MUCH better. Comparing him to Harris was best and IMO Porter is better than Harris and he might be overpaid, but at least he's under contract for 3 more years.

[Slim Tubby]

Late word has the Wizards making a push for Butler. If they are including Porter done deal.

Wonderful, 2 bad max contracts, that's how you build a contender!

Porter would fit in good but man, 50-70 million for Wiggins and Porter, then adding in Towns 30-35 million. For some reason, if I don't think it's going to work much better with Towns and Wiggins then it did for Wall and Beal.

Two questions I ask myself about proposed Butler trades. First, does the deal make the Wolves a solid playoff team for the next year or two. Second, are the Wolves getting back assets or picks that have the potential to provide a solid contribution in 3-4 years time. In a trade with Houston the answer to both questions is very likely no. At least with Porter we would be getting a player who could realistically be a very good starter both now and 3 years down the road. Plus, I'd rate Porter as a much, much better player than Gordon.

Excellent post!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[vagelis]

I compared Porter to Wiggins because Wiggins is a player we are all very familiar with that scored 23 PPG and yet Porter was a much better player. No point in comparing him to Butler because there is no comparison. Butler is MUCH better. Comparing him to Harris was best and IMO Porter is better than Harris and he might be overpaid, but at least he's under contract for 3 more years.

According to you Butler is much better than Porter, Porter is much better than Wiggins.
So the difference between Wiggins and Butler is chaotic. But we didn't see any difference between them in playoffs against Houston when the games were tougher.
Porter is a role player who plays well his role. Wiggins is not a role player he is a first option scorer who was utilized as role player last year. That was not his fault.

[Howard Cosell]

This role player stuff about Porter really bothers me. There is more to basketball than how many total points a player scores. Porter scores with ridiculous efficiency while doing everything else well. Wiggins will score more points than Porter, but Porter is a much better player.
I like Harris. He is a very good player, but Porter is a better player.

Porter scores with efficiency because he is a good shooter and John Wall(mainly) and Beal create for him. He does not have offensive game except shooting.
If he was such a good player like his contract says the Wizzards would have been a much better team. Wall and Beal are really good players if they had one more player in their level Wizzards would have been a great team.
And why do you compare Porter with Wiggins? This is a Butler trade, we give Butler and we try to find a player to fill his gap. So I think it is better to compare the possible trade assets from other teams and who is better to come to the Wolves.
So, about the comparison with Harris I think that Harris is more gifted offensively and he can help in 2 positions sf/pf.
So, we can play some minutes with small ball and 2 pgs having Wiggins at 3 and Harris at 4.
The problem that I recognize in Harris case is that he is an expiring contract and we need to assure that he will resign

I compared Porter to Wiggins because Wiggins is a player we are all very familiar with that scored 23 PPG and yet Porter was a much better player. No point in comparing him to Butler because there is no comparison. Butler is MUCH better. Comparing him to Harris was best and IMO Porter is better than Harris and he might be overpaid, but at least he's under contract for 3 more years.

I agree.

[walk with me]

If Jimmy gets traded the team immediately drops out of the playoffs. No matter who this team revives... Otto Porter, Eric Gordon, goran dragic and josh Richardson....West is too intense this year. Jimmy is the lynchpin that holds this team all together. Kat and Wiggins won’t be enough in a stacked west.

[Whole Truth]

If Wolves got 2 picks, with 2 vets, maybe dump Dieng, would you forgo the young player?.

[Howard Cosell]

If Jimmy gets traded the team immediately drops out of the playoffs. No matter who this team revives... Otto Porter, Eric Gordon, goran dragic and josh Richardson....West is too intense this year. Jimmy is the lynchpin that holds this team all together. Kat and Wiggins won’t be enough in a stacked west.

So?

Butler is not coming back next year. If Twolves can get something better than negative value back you trade Butler. Decision on Butler needs to have Wiggins & Towns Twolves future in mind..not about 2018/19 season.

[AirP.]

The Taylor thing worried me. A lot of fans were happy he was wanting to get something done but I am worried he is rushing. Take the time to get a deal we can live with.

He inserts himself way too much into basketball operations, just watching out this Butler thing is play out I can imagine why the organization is a mess. Either higher a puppet FO or let your people do their job, you can't go in multiple directions and expect anything good to come from it. This is also why I think the rumor of Thibs wanting to be fired could be true, if you're not allowed to do what you're hired to do, why be there?

First, how could he NOT insert himself into this situation, when Thibs refused to even listen to trade offers?

Second, Taylor’s bottom line is to keep KAT happy. If Jimmy is not traded quickly, it’s because Jimmy, KAT, Thibs and Taylor all agreed. Taylor would not force a quick trade if the other three say wait.

Glen Taylor IS Minnesota's problem. I've never made a thread all the years I've been on RealGM but this topic is really getting me close to doing it. Maybe I can get enough out in small bullet points, I've been saying most of this stuff for over a year.

- The franchise has not been successful under Taylor for years.
- To change the direction of the franchise he took himself out of the equation of hiring a coach and went to a consultant to let them hire a coach, 2 years later the team underachieves at 47 wins.
- I can say pretty confidently that Wiggins is exactly the opposite type of player Thibs wants. Sure, he's highly talented but Thibs likes defense and he likes effort, BOTH things Wiggins doesn't bring.
- 1st year of Thibs, it's rumored he went right after Butler but Towns, Wiggins and LaVine were all not being allowed to be traded by Taylor so you saw the ridiculous, hey, we'll give you Dunn and Rubio for Butler.
- 2nd year of Thibs, with LaVine's injury and Taylor's desperation to make the playoffs, he allows LaVine to be moved, he even mentions this in an interview that LaVine not being around 1/2 a year was big reason why LaVine was moved.
- It is leaked that Thibodeau was open to moving Wiggins in the Butler trade(no #$@#).
- Instead of getting Butler for Wiggins and Dunn Thibs had to trade LaVine, Dunn and switching 1st rounders with Chicago for Butler, this means Minnesota doesn't get the player Thibs had said he was going to draft, Markkanen.
- Wiggins, who at this point has shown nothing but the ability to score in high volume is now the 3rd option at best with Minnesota while given a max contract by an owner who went public with that offer. Seems like a really, really bad idea, almost like the owner and POBO/Coach don't see eye to eye?
- Butler wasn't brought in to mentor Wiggins, he was brought in to replace Wiggins. Butler at this point was all-nba and in his prime, you don't bring those types of players in to prep your successor, you bring in guys who know they're not in in their prime to do that.
- Gibson is brought in at PF because defense is the biggest need(3pt shooting 2nd biggest need), to accommodate the new max contract Wiggins you now have no real 3pt threats at SG, SF and PF.
- Also year 2, Towns(the best offensive player on the team) has to now be used to help space the offense instead of being used as the main offensive weapon to get the most out of the offense. To Town's credit, even in this role he incredibly efficient to a level he makes the all-nba team even though his defense isn't good.
- Kyrie Irving lists Minnesota as a trade destination and Cleveland asks for... "a young star", Wiggins at 22 the season before this trade request just put up 23 ppg yet no rumors of him being floated out there for Irving.
- It is reported that Butler and Towns went to the FO to tell them to try to acquire Wiggins, yet for some reason that didn't happen, once again, almost like Wiggins was not allowed to be traded by the FO which I absolutely assume was Taylor's decision.
- Kyrie Irving, a proven scorer on the biggest stage(NBA Playoffs), was 25 at the time and has the proven track record/history that Thibs seems to like yet... no real mention of offering Wiggins letting Minnesota have a big 3 of Towns, Butler and Irving for the next 5-6 years.
- Butler is a huge Thibs fan, he is aligned with Butler and Thibs may be Butler's biggest fan yet a trade has been requested citing money. With these as knowns (Butler is good with Thibs, Thibs is good with Butler) at this point it has to be that Butler has been given the indication that ownership will not allow a max contract to be given out and possibly not close to that.
- Thibs comes out and says he's not wanting to trade Butler(which we all expect) then the OWNER says no, if you have something good bring it to me, BLATANTLY making the calls again instead of letting his FO handle the situation.
- Currently all teams now know the owner wants Butler gone and the owner has already shown he will over rule the FO and that's part of the reason for the low ball offers(and the timing).

It's really simple, Glen Taylor in charge has been a disaster for this franchise for a long time, the one good thing he did was go to a 3rd party to hire his coach, the bad part, he took himself out of hiring a coach which lead to the franchise winning, the bad part, he can't stop pushing his ideas on the coach/POBO and with that pulling the organization in multiple directions. Right now, Taylor's input has Minnesota locked in with Wiggins' on a max contract instead of having Markkanen or K.Irving.. both WITH BUTLER moving forward and possibly being a title contender as soon as of this year. Ownership matters and yes I understand, Taylor is keeping the Timberwolves in Minnesota, that's good for you guys but I don't think you'll ever win anything with him in charge. Your only chance honestly is for a player to dictate to ownership what happens, much like what LeBron did with Cleveland, let it be known you might leave and make it legal by only signing short contracts to make his threats possible.

There's of course more but this should be enough. It's simple, nobody is trying to torpedo the team and if you believe that you have to look at why people are doing what they're doing. Glen Taylor just seems to be really bad at valuating players and with that, has strong opinions which hurt the franchise.

Minnesota with a stronger bench, more 3pt shooting, more defense, growth by the younger players and a year of chemistry should have been a better team this year then the under achieving 47 win team last year but all the meddling by the owner has made sure that isn't happening. This team was so close to being a legit contender.

[KGdaBom]

I compared Porter to Wiggins because Wiggins is a player we are all very familiar with that scored 23 PPG and yet Porter was a much better player. No point in comparing him to Butler because there is no comparison. Butler is MUCH better. Comparing him to Harris was best and IMO Porter is better than Harris and he might be overpaid, but at least he's under contract for 3 more years.

According to you Butler is much better than Porter, Porter is much better than Wiggins.
So the difference between Wiggins and Butler is chaotic. But we didn't see any difference between them in playoffs against Houston when the games were tougher.
Porter is a role player who plays well his role. Wiggins is not a role player he is a first option scorer who was utilized as role player last year. That was not his fault.

All this Role Player not Role Player stuff doesn't matter. Good player or Great player or not so good player are what matters. Wiggins even in his 23 PPG season wasn't efficient. You say Wiggins was utilized as a Role player last year, but I believe he took the most shots on the team. Scoring at a better rate than your opponents wins games. Wiggins loses games Porter and Butler win Games. Hopefully Wiggins can change that this season.

[KGdaBom]

He inserts himself way too much into basketball operations, just watching out this Butler thing is play out I can imagine why the organization is a mess. Either higher a puppet FO or let your people do their job, you can't go in multiple directions and expect anything good to come from it. This is also why I think the rumor of Thibs wanting to be fired could be true, if you're not allowed to do what you're hired to do, why be there?

First, how could he NOT insert himself into this situation, when Thibs refused to even listen to trade offers?

Second, Taylor’s bottom line is to keep KAT happy. If Jimmy is not traded quickly, it’s because Jimmy, KAT, Thibs and Taylor all agreed. Taylor would not force a quick trade if the other three say wait.

Glen Taylor IS Minnesota's problem. I've never made a thread all the years I've been on RealGM but this topic is really getting me close to doing it. Maybe I can get enough out in small bullet points, I've been saying most of this stuff for over a year.

- The franchise has not been successful under Taylor for years.
- To change the direction of the franchise he took himself out of the equation of hiring a coach and went to a consultant to let them hire a coach, 2 years later the team underachieves at 47 wins.
- I can say pretty confidently that Wiggins is exactly the opposite type of player Thibs wants. Sure, he's highly talented but Thibs likes defense and he likes effort, BOTH things Wiggins doesn't bring.
- 1st year of Thibs, it's rumored he went right after Butler but Towns, Wiggins and LaVine were all not being allowed to be traded by Taylor so you saw the ridiculous, hey, we'll give you Dunn and Rubio for Butler.
- 2nd year of Thibs, with LaVine's injury and Taylor's desperation to make the playoffs, he allows LaVine to be moved, he even mentions this in an interview that LaVine not being around 1/2 a year was big reason why LaVine was moved.
- It is leaked that Thibodeau was open to moving Wiggins in the Butler trade(no #$@#).
- Instead of getting Butler for Wiggins and Dunn Thibs had to trade LaVine, Dunn and switching 1st rounders with Chicago for Butler, this means Minnesota doesn't get the player Thibs had said he was going to draft, Markkanen.
- Wiggins, who at this point has shown nothing but the ability to score in high volume is now the 3rd option at best with Minnesota while given a max contract by an owner who went public with that offer. Seems like a really, really bad idea, almost like the owner and POBO/Coach don't see eye to eye?
- Butler wasn't brought in to mentor Wiggins, he was brought in to replace Wiggins. Butler at this point was all-nba and in his prime, you don't bring those types of players in to prep your successor, you bring in guys who know they're not in in their prime to do that.
- Gibson is brought in at PF because defense is the biggest need(3pt shooting 2nd biggest need), to accommodate the new max contract Wiggins you now have no real 3pt threats at SG, SF and PF.
- Also year 2, Towns(the best offensive player on the team) has to now be used to help space the offense instead of being used as the main offensive weapon to get the most out of the offense. To Town's credit, even in this role he incredibly efficient to a level he makes the all-nba team even though his defense isn't good.
- Kyrie Irving lists Minnesota as a trade destination and Cleveland asks for... "a young star", Wiggins at 22 the season before this trade request just put up 23 ppg yet no rumors of him being floated out there for Irving.
- It is reported that Butler and Towns went to the FO to tell them to try to acquire Wiggins, yet for some reason that didn't happen, once again, almost like Wiggins was not allowed to be traded by the FO which I absolutely assume was Taylor's decision.
- Kyrie Irving, a proven scorer on the biggest stage(NBA Playoffs), was 25 at the time and has the proven track record/history that Thibs seems to like yet... no real mention of offering Wiggins letting Minnesota have a big 3 of Towns, Butler and Irving for the next 5-6 years.
- Butler is a huge Thibs fan, he is aligned with Butler and Thibs may be Butler's biggest fan yet a trade has been requested citing money. With these as knowns (Butler is good with Thibs, Thibs is good with Butler) at this point it has to be that Butler has been given the indication that ownership will not allow a max contract to be given out and possibly not close to that.
- Thibs comes out and says he's not wanting to trade Butler(which we all expect) then the OWNER says no, if you have something good bring it to me, BLATANTLY making the calls again instead of letting his FO handle the situation.
- Currently all teams now know the owner wants Butler gone and the owner has already shown he will over rule the FO and that's part of the reason for the low ball offers(and the timing).

It's really simple, Glen Taylor in charge has been a disaster for this franchise for a long time, the one good thing he did was go to a 3rd party to hire his coach, the bad part, he took himself out of hiring a coach which lead to the franchise winning, the bad part, he can't stop pushing his ideas on the coach/POBO and with that pulling the organization in multiple directions. Right now, Taylor's input has Minnesota locked in with Wiggins' on a max contract instead of having Markkanen or K.Irving.. both WITH BUTLER moving forward and possibly being a title contender as soon as of this year. Ownership matters and yes I understand, Taylor is keeping the Timberwolves in Minnesota, that's good for you guys but I don't think you'll ever win anything with him in charge. Your only chance honestly is for a player to dictate to ownership what happens, much like what LeBron did with Cleveland, let it be known you might leave and make it legal by only signing short contracts to make his threats possible.

There's of course more but this should be enough. It's simple, nobody is trying to torpedo the team and if you believe that you have to look at why people are doing what they're doing. Glen Taylor just seems to be really bad at valuating players and with that, has strong opinions which hurt the franchise.

One of the best posts I have ever read.

[shrink]

He inserts himself way too much into basketball operations, just watching out this Butler thing is play out I can imagine why the organization is a mess. Either higher a puppet FO or let your people do their job, you can't go in multiple directions and expect anything good to come from it. This is also why I think the rumor of Thibs wanting to be fired could be true, if you're not allowed to do what you're hired to do, why be there?

First, how could he NOT insert himself into this situation, when Thibs refused to even listen to trade offers?

Second, Taylor’s bottom line is to keep KAT happy. If Jimmy is not traded quickly, it’s because Jimmy, KAT, Thibs and Taylor all agreed. Taylor would not force a quick trade if the other three say wait.

Glen Taylor IS Minnesota's problem. I've never made a thread all the years I've been on RealGM but this topic is really getting me close to doing it. Maybe I can get enough out in small bullet points.

- The franchise has not been successful under Taylor for years.
- To change the direction of the franchise he took himself out of the equation of hiring a coach and went to a consultant to let them hire a coach, 2 years later the team underachieves at 47 wins.
- I can say pretty confidently that Wiggins is exactly the opposite type of player Thibs wants. Sure, he's highly talented but Thibs likes defense and he likes effort, BOTH things Wiggins doesn't bring.
- 1st year of Thibs, it's rumored he went right after Butler but Towns, Wiggins and LaVine were all not being allowed to be traded by Taylor so you saw the ridiculous, hey, we'll give you Dunn and Rubio for Butler.
- 2nd year of Thibs, with LaVine's injury and Taylor's desperation to make the playoffs, he allows LaVine to be moved, he even mentions this in an interview that LaVine not being around 1/2 a year was big reason why LaVine was moved.
- It is leaked that Thibodeau was open to moving Wiggins in the Butler trade(no #$@#).
- Instead of getting Butler for Wiggins and Dunn Thibs had to trade LaVine, Dunn and switching 1st rounders with Chicago for Butler, this means Minnesota doesn't get the player Thibs had said he was going to draft, Markkanen.
- Wiggins, who at this point has shown nothing but the ability to score in high volume is now the 3rd option at best with Minnesota while given a max contract by an owner who went public with that offer. Seems like a really, really bad idea, almost like the owner and POBO/Coach don't see eye to eye?
- Butler wasn't brought in to mentor Wiggins, he was brought in to replace Wiggins. Butler at this point was all-nba and in his prime, you don't bring those types of players in to prep your successor, you bring in guys who know they're not in in their prime to do that.
- Gibson is brought in at PF because defense is the biggest need(3pt shooting 2nd biggest need), to accommodate the new max contract Wiggins you now have no real 3pt threats at SG, SF and PF.
- Also year 2, Towns(the best offensive player on the team) has to now be used to help space the offense instead of being used as the main offensive weapon to get the most out of the offense. To Town's credit, even in this role he incredibly efficient to a level he makes the all-nba team even though his defense isn't good.
- Kyrie Irving lists Minnesota as a trade destination and Cleveland asks for... "a young star", Wiggins at 22 the season before this trade request just put up 23 ppg yet no rumors of him being floated out there for Irving.
- It is reported that Butler and Towns went to the FO to tell them to try to acquire Wiggins, yet for some reason that didn't happen, once again, almost like Wiggins was not allowed to be traded by the FO which I absolutely assume was Taylor's decision.
- Kyrie Irving, a proven scorer on the biggest stage(NBA Playoffs), was 25 at the time and has the proven track record/history that Thibs seems to like yet... no real mention of offering Wiggins letting Minnesota have a big 3 of Towns, Butler and Irving for the next 5-6 years.
- Butler is a huge Thibs fan, he is aligned with Butler and Thibs may be Butler's biggest fan yet a trade has been requested citing money. With these as knowns (Butler is good with Thibs, Thibs is good with Butler) at this point it has to be that Butler has been given the indication that ownership will not allow a max contract to be given out and possibly not close to that.
- Thibs comes out and says he's not wanting to trade Butler(which we all expect) then the OWNER says no, if you have something good bring it to me, BLATANTLY making the calls again instead of letting his FO handle the situation.
- Currently all teams now know the owner wants Butler gone and the owner has already shown he will over rule the FO and that's part of the reason for the low ball offers(and the timing).

It's really simple, Glen Taylor in charge has been a disaster for this franchise for a long time, the one good thing he did was go to a 3rd party to hire his coach, the bad part, he took himself out of hiring a coach which lead to the franchise winning, the bad part, he can't stop pushing his ideas on the coach/POBO and with that pulling the organization in multiple directions. Right now, Taylor's input has Minnesota locked in with Wiggins' on a max contract instead of having Markkanen or K.Irving.. both WITH BUTLER moving forward and possibly being a title contender as soon as of this year. Ownership matters and yes I understand, Taylor is keeping the Timberwolves in Minnesota, that's good for you guys but I don't think you'll ever win anything with him in charge. Your only chance honestly is for a player to dictate to ownership what happens, much like what LeBron did with Cleveland, let it be known you might leave and make it legal by only signing short contracts to make his threats possible.

There's of course more but this should be enough. It's simple, nobody is trying to torpedo the team and if you believe that you have to look at why people are doing what they're doing. Glen Taylor just seems to be really bad at valuating players and with that, has strong opinions which hurt the franchise.

TLDR

My point is, people are using the current bad situation to blame whoever they already dislike. They are trying to stack this on a list while they bring up the past to advance their agenda, whether they blame Taylor, Thibs, Jimmy, KAT, Wiggins, or probably Rubio.

I see no reason that what Taylor did this week adds any credibility to this argument. Taylor was at the Board of Governors meetings, and other owners were telling him that Thibodeau was refusing to even listen to offers. I feel Taylor, or any owner, would be forced to say, “run the best offers by me,” if their GM had closed off all communication.

Regardless, this is not something to add to the litany of offenses that each poster has for whoever he dislikes most. It’s scapegoating.

[AirP.]

TLDR

My point is, people are using the current bad situation to blame whoever they already dislike. They are trying to stack this on a list while they bring up the past to advance their agenda, whether they blame Taylor, Thibs, Jimmy, KAT, Wiggins, or probably Rubio.

I see no reason that what Taylor did this week adds any credibility to this argument. Taylor was at the Board of Governors meetings, and other owners were telling him that Thibodeau was refusing to even listen to offers. I feel Taylor, or any owner, would be forced to say, “run the best offers by me,” if their GM had closed off all communication.

Regardless, this is not something to add to the litany of offenses that each poster has for whoever he dislikes most. It’s scapegoating.

Of course you don't see anything this week that adds to the credibility of this argument, you didn't read what I put(I tried to even put it in order and make it as concise as possible although there is a lot more).

On Thibs not even listening to offers... I can't believe I have to spell this stuff out.


1. Thibs also knows there's no way you're going to get near the value in return from a Butler trade, basically low balled.
2. If it's about money, that means Butler(or his agent) has a good idea of what money ownership is currently willing to pay and it's nowhere near what they could give.
3. If #2is true, if Butler is retained and Minnesota has a great year(which they should) maybe Butler is offered enough to stay... IF IT'S ABOUT THE MONEY. If it doesn't work, you make moves.

At some point maybe you guys will figure out there's a common theme to why Minnesota is a bad team year after year.

What's really funny, looking at how Taylor basically freaked out with Butler wanting out, just think what would have happened with a team of young talented players being a below .500 team starting to come off their rookie contracts and needing big contracts, he would have got pennies on the dollar for them.

[shrink]

TLDR

My point is, people are using the current bad situation to blame whoever they already dislike. They are trying to stack this on a list while they bring up the past to advance their agenda, whether they blame Taylor, Thibs, Jimmy, KAT, Wiggins, or probably Rubio.

I see no reason that what Taylor did this week adds any credibility to this argument. Taylor was at the Board of Governors meetings, and other owners were telling him that Thibodeau was refusing to even listen to offers. I feel Taylor, or any owner, would be forced to say, “run the best offers by me,” if their GM had closed off all communication.

Regardless, this is not something to add to the litany of offenses that each poster has for whoever he dislikes most. It’s scapegoating.

Of course you don't see anything this week that adds to the credibility of this argument, you didn't read what I put(I tried to even put it in order and make it as concise as possible although there is a lot more).

On Thibs not even listening to offers... I can't believe I have to spell this stuff out.


1. Thibs also knows there's no way you're going to get near the value in return from a Butler trade, basically low balled.
2. If it's about money, that means Butler(or his agent) has a good idea of what money ownership is currently willing to pay and it's nowhere near what they could give.
3. If #2is true, if Butler is retained and Minnesota has a great year(which they should) maybe Butler is offered enough to stay... IF IT'S ABOUT THE MONEY. If it doesn't work, you make moves.

At some point maybe you guys will figure out there's a common theme to why Minnesota is a bad team year after year.

What's really funny, looking at how Taylor basically freaked out with Butler wanting out, just think what would have happened with a team of young talented players being a below .500 team starting to come off their rookie contracts and needing big contracts, he would have got pennies on the dollar for them.

When a poster leads off with “this has what’s happened for 20 years, and this is what happened 2 years ago, then there is a wall of text after it, I have learned that it usually means a poster is venting, and isn’t addressing the issue of the day. If that was concise, I don’t want to imagine “wordy!” That’s not respecting the reader’s time.

The other thing that correlates with walls of text is emotional bias. I hate seeing people say, “he basically ..” because it always follows with a biased view of events. Things like “Taylor basically freaked out with Butler wanting out!” Really?

I don’t mean to rag on you, and I generally like what you write, even if I don’t always agree. I just think this wasn’t your best stuff.

[minimus]

I will be happy to take the total package he brings. The ridiculous offensive efficiency. The rebounding and the Defense. Players like Porter win games for a team.

It is not Scottie Pippen, it is Otto Porter. We need a player like him, but we should avoid a role player with such contract. Unless his name is Dray Green, Klay Thompson. Otto signed this contract because BRO offered him such money. Saying this, I'd perfectly fine with Porter as 3rd option if we did not have Dieng, Teague, Aldrich, Gibson contracts. That is a bunch a bad contract that are hurting us.

For the way Gibson played last year he is a good contract. Teague is an OK contract. Aldrich is no longer on the team. Gorgui was a very good player until last year. I don't get why just because Gibson played ahead of him his game went to crap.

The good contract AND skillset for PF next to KAT is PJ Tucker. Taj is a good player but he should not be starter AND should not be be paid 12 mil. I think it is pretty obvious. Teague is a bad contract simply because you cannot trade him without attaching pick. Aldrich is no longer on the team, but his contract is. Gorgui is a good player, no doubt, but he should not be paid 16mil. He is only valuable when he can play 30 minutes doing dirty work, because he can't give you offensive spark e.g. couple of 3s or couple of offensive rebounds and easy putbacks, he can't provide spark in defense as well e.g. couple of blocks, steals or charges. I think we could live with his contract without Gibson, Teague and Aldrich contracts. But we have to trade him now. You can watch preseason game of BOS. That's what I call modern basketball, versatile, athletic lineup which can defend and score against anyone. When I read that "Thibs runs switches in practices" it makes me laugh. We have Teague, who is too small, Dieng who is too slow, Rose who Thibs inserted in starting lineup, then rookies, 33+ yrs old veterans, Wiggins and KAT. Really Thibs? You promoted Rose as starting SG? He the worst possible fit next to Teague, Wiggins and Gibson?

[AirP.]

When a poster leads off with “this has what’s happened for 20 years, and this is what happened 2 years ago, then there is a wall of text after it, I have learned that it usually means a poster is venting, and isn’t addressing the issue of the day. If that was concise, I don’t want to imagine “wordy!” That’s not respecting the reader’s time.

The other thing that correlates with walls of text is emotional bias. I hate seeing people say, “he basically ..” because it always follows with a biased view of events. Things like “Taylor basically freaked out with Butler wanting out!” Really?

I don’t mean to rag on you, and I generally like what you write, even if I don’t always agree. I just think this wasn’t your best stuff.

Didn't say it was my best stuff, it was somewhat off the top of my head but I tried to put major points together by times when it happened. There's more but that was more then long enough.

Thibs was a bad hire and Thibs accepted a bad situation, what we don't know is if he was promised to have more control then it seems he's had but I'd think with the POBO being given to him, he more then likely though he had more control of the roster then he's had. I don't think Taylor necessary lied, but I do think the power structure that was agreed to when Thibs hired on and where it is now is vastly different.

Yes, I think Taylor getting into these trade talks by telling other owners/Gms to bring offers to him is a huge indication this has been going on for a while.

[shrink]

For the way Gibson played last year he is a good contract. Teague is an OK contract. Aldrich is no longer on the team. Gorgui was a very good player until last year. I don't get why just because Gibson played ahead of him his game went to crap.

The good contract AND skillset for PF next to KAT is PJ Tucker. Taj is a good player but he should not be starter AND should not be be paid 12 mil. I think it is pretty obvious. Teague is a bad contract simply because you cannot trade him without attaching pick. Aldrich is no longer on the team, but his contract is. Gorgui is a good player, no doubt, but he should not be paid 16mil. He is only valuable when he can play 30 minutes doing dirty work, because he can't give you offensive spark e.g. couple of 3s or couple of offensive rebounds and easy putbacks, he can't provide spark in defense as well e.g. couple of blocks, steals or charges. I think we could live with his contract without Gibson, Teague and Aldrich contracts. But we have to trade him now. You can watch preseason game of BOS. That's what I call modern basketball, versatile, athletic lineup which can defend and score against anyone. When I read that "Thibs runs switches in practices" it makes me laugh. We have Teague, who is too small, Dieng who is too slow, Rose who Thibs inserted in starting lineup, then rookies, 33+ yrs old veterans, Wiggins and KAT. Really Thibs? You promoted Rose as starting SG? He the worst possible fit next to Teague, Wiggins and Gibson?

Don’t underestimate Taj because of his age. He played in all 82 games last year, and was 14th overall in Minutes played.

He was 11th in Off RB. He was 6th in FG% at 57.7%, and 12th in Off Rtg.

I agree with KGdaBom on all his player valuations. Keep in mind that we paid a bit more per year on Teague and Taj in order to get them on shorter deals, but they have lived up to their money.