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Identity crisis?

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Re: Identity crisis? 

Post#341 » by Nick K » Sat Aug 17, 2024 3:45 pm

minimus wrote:

I think that increasing numbers of DHO might be the easiest change that Finch can implement to improve our offense. Not only Gobert, Towns and Reid, but also I also expect Ingles, McDaniels act more as secondary DHO operators. Adding a live dribble shooter such as Dillingham will only help, and TSJ can also attack going downhill from DHO. I really see here some similarities between Maxey's and Rob's role.

While I like to think about Jokic-Murray DHO as reference, because how smooth they run this action, I think that the key for MIN might be secondary DHO action, simply because with twin tower lineups MIN can get more of it, especially after with Ingles addition


Great video! Loved it. No reason why the Wolves couldn't do more of this. They have the personnel.
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Identity crisis? 

Post#342 » by minimus » Tue Sep 10, 2024 3:47 pm

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I am excited to see our team offense evolve by adding more double drag and spain pick and roll plays. I think this is the most logical way to develop because the first action that Finch was able to integrate seamlessly was the horn action. I mean, the horn action is well suited to use both of our bigs as screeners with the option for Towns to either pop and roll. The next logical step is more double and spain pick and roll actions. I mentioned them together intentionally. These two actions in my opinion are similar because they use the same initial alignment of three players, where Double Drag uses the width of the floor (i.e. is running horinzontally) while Spain Action uses the depth of the floor (i.e. is running vertically). I wrote more such double drag and Spain pick and roll actions, because MIN already run them. Right now the question is more about execution and feel.

P.S. Last Saturday I watched a local german U18 team playing a friendly preseason game here. The first successful action they ran was Double Drag into DHO.
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Re: Identity crisis? 

Post#343 » by minimus » Wed Sep 11, 2024 8:56 am

I still think Karl is our biggest X-factor for success. After the Gobert trade he had to adjust to the PF position and the results are mixed. While last season before injury his alley-oop connection with Gobert was top-10 in NBA in terms of number. However, he regressed a lot as a slasher (compared to his style when he played C) because he does not have the quickness to beat most forwards/wings off the dribble and he does not know how to play with his physical advantages. He has almost abandoned his post-up and mid-range game because he rarely gets the ball down low or around the elbow. So his attempts to drive from the three point line often lead to hooking shots, which in addition to his lack of dynamism as a shooter leads to a big compounding problem: his lack of aggression, or better, lack of balance. He either forces things or becomes completely passive.

I watched the first half of Game 7 against DEN, and all of Karl's weaknesses were on display: he was passing half-open three pointers, he was committing stupid offensive fouls. And then I stumbled across this tweet

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So Towns as a decision maker is a key to MIN's offensive improvement. It starts with his role as a secondary option when MIN runs sets like Horns, Double Drag Screens, and Spain Pick and Roll, where he can either facilitate, shoot, or drive. It could be unstoppable as Edwards and Towns keep opposing defenses guessing. Second thing is to improve the "feel of the game", I think MIN lost the series against DAL not only because of Doncic, but also because Irving played his Robin role perfectly. Every time MIN defenders were able to slow down Doncic, Irving kept the offensive rhythm going. Yes, MIN could not defend Doncic, but neither could NAW or Edwards defend Kyrie.

Finch has said that he is not a fan of the heliocentric offense, and this tweet states that pulling the opposing big man away from the basket is a better option. We have that option with Reid and Towns, but it is still very underutilized. If Towns can find his balance and Reid can improve as a facilitator, I can see our offense taking another step forward. And as I have said many times before, I think the addition of TJ, Rob and Ingles is a step in the right direction: TJ adds physicality and an aggressive scoring mentality, Rob adds shooting, creativity and passing. These additions give Towns and Edwards more options on offense, which should theoretically make their lives easier. I mean, it makes a big difference when Towns passes to Kyle Anderson, who is neither a slasher nor a shooter, preferring to shoot long floaters. Next season, Towns and Edwards can pass to TJ, who has potential as a slasher, or Rob, who has potential as a shooter or Ingles who is still a good passer and shooter.
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Re: Identity crisis? 

Post#344 » by minimus » Wed Sep 11, 2024 12:01 pm

minimus wrote:I call our offensive issues "The Three-Body Problem." (The three-body problem is a classic issue in physics and celestial mechanics involving the prediction of the motion of three gravitationally interacting bodies. Unlike the two-body problem, the three-body problem is notoriously difficult and chaotic, lacking a general analytical solution.) Our three main stars—Gobert, Towns, and Edwards—struggled to find a model where they could run the offense smoothly.


I dare to quote myself because I think I found a perfect example of MIN "The Three-Body Problem" and its solution. First I saw this video about evolution of pick-n-roll (as a side note you can think about recent Edwards words about skills of NBA players in old times) In a nutshell, nowdays even a simple pick-n-roll action is running at different speed than 20 years ago, with multiple secondary options. And NBA defenses have adopted, found ways to effectively stop simple pick-n-roll action by using, hedge, drop, ICE, etc.


Here is example of Spain pick-n-roll, I remember Harden running Spain pick-n-roll in HOU, but nowadays it is kind of normal play for any NBA team. Also this video shows how to defend it.


And here comes DAL vs. MIN Game 1, when both Doncic and Kyrie burned MIN's defense to death: starting with punishing DROP coverage, then exploiting cross matches in broken camp, and finally running double drag


On the one hand, the MIN defense was able to effectively execute DROP coverage with some mix of hedge/high wall. This gave them the best NBA defense in the regular season. However, they cannot adapt to high level DAL offense, which is a natural matchup for MIN DROP defense. On the other hand, the MIN offense did not execute high level offense enough to make it an effective weapon in the playoffs. And this is a perfect example of the Three-Body Problem: DAL ran double-drop action (Three-Body Model) that beat our defense, while MIN ran less effective offense because our three stars could not find synergy (Three-Body Problem Solution). The difference between the two processes is the end result of the series against Dallas.

What could be a next step for our defense?

First, as the video above suggests against the Spain pick-and-roll or double-drag screen, all three defenders should be alert and playing in sync.It takes time, repetition, and experience to create this chemistry. For example, it is clear that both Reid and Towns have improved a lot as defenders, but in terms of rotations and positional defense, they still have a lot of room to improve. Second, MIN needs to minimize possessions where Conley has to defend in the double-drag or Spanish pick-and-roll. DAL intentionally targeted Conley by using Derrick Jones Jr. as a second screener, forcing Conley to guess either tag rolling big or contest the perimeter shooter. And that, too, is part of a high-level offense: identifying and creating mismatches. The standard way to defend the double-drag screen is to switch the first and third defenders and have the second defender execute the drop. You can't do that with Conley. Finally, with Conley (and hopefully Rob) on the floor, MIN needs to avoid mismatches. You can find plenty of examples of how to do this. GSW uses all kinds of pre-switches, veer switches, etc. to protect Curry. To some extent, they do it because they don't have Gobert protecting the rim, but they compensate with high level defense.
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Re: Identity crisis? 

Post#345 » by TimberKat » Wed Sep 11, 2024 4:19 pm

minimus wrote:I dare to quote myself because I think I found a perfect example of MIN "The Three-Body Problem" and its solution.

A lot of great info. You could quote yourself anytime. I view the 3body problem as we have very good individual on ball defenders but aren't working well in the team concept. I think the same can apply to 3body offense as well. I wish Ant could be the ball handler in that situation but he isn't good enough yet to figure out where to dribble and where to pass. Conley has loss a step or two, so couldn't turn the corner to be a more effective 3rd threat.
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Re: Identity crisis? 

Post#346 » by minimus » Wed Sep 11, 2024 5:30 pm

TimberKat wrote:
minimus wrote:I dare to quote myself because I think I found a perfect example of MIN "The Three-Body Problem" and its solution.

I view the 3body problem as we have very good individual on ball defenders but aren't working well in the team concept. I think the same can apply to 3body offense as well.


Yes, that is the definition of our problem. I should add that it is not the only way to build a winning team, a right combination of talent, chemistry and culture can help heliocentric or two star roster to win a championship. See last year DEN with Jokic-Murray or this year BOS with a lot of talent around Tatum and Brown (I also wonder if a three body offense built around three stars is possible under the current CBA).

And another example of 3 body problem and solution is Tex Winter's (Phil Jackson) triangle offense. The idea is simple. However, it takes a lot of talent, skill and chemistry to get three players (and rest of five) playing in a flow. Kurt Rambis in MIN is an example of how far apart the idea and implementation can be.
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Re: Identity crisis? 

Post#347 » by minimus » Thu Sep 12, 2024 11:06 am

minimus wrote:Finally, with Conley (and hopefully Rob) on the floor, MIN needs to avoid mismatches. You can find plenty of examples of how to do this. GSW uses all kinds of pre-switches, veer switches, etc. to protect Curry. To some extent, they do it because they don't have Gobert protecting the rim, but they compensate with high level defense.


minimus wrote:Yeah, but next step should be more attentive, more adaptive defensive rotations. I mean look at MIL defense around Lopez, as group they developed a lot during Bud era.

I mean now MIN players should do their homework better, recognise opponent weaknesses and strengths and adapt accordingly. Something that Conley mentioned a year ago.

Read on Twitter

I think it is a level above our current defense. It is not simple: we dont allow corner threes, we give up above the break threes. It should be up to our players to recognise which specific opponent player is good at hitting corners threes from left corner, who is bad at hitting above the break threes, who can pullup from three etc. Then MIN defense can change on the fly, instead of being mechanical and predictable


Here is an excellent example how BOS players were prepared to face Doncic and DAL offense:

- used pre-switches to use switches against Doncic and break up alleyoop duos Doncic/Kyrie + Lively/Gafford (GSW tactic)
- used pre-switches to use Porzingis in DROP or as roamer in defense
- did not allow mismatches created by Doncic pick-n-roll
- prevented open corner threes, good at leaving right players open to shoot above the break threes (MIL tactic)
- used smart veer switches (GSW tactic)



P.S. I like this quote: "We are like dwarves standing on the shoulders of giants." I feel like learning basketball is more fun than ever. BOS performance as a team shows what the quote means: they used best practices from GSW and MIL teams.
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Re: Identity crisis? 

Post#348 » by shrink » Thu Sep 12, 2024 10:10 pm

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Nice Fenerbahce sequence
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Re: Identity crisis? 

Post#349 » by frankenwolf » Fri Sep 13, 2024 6:34 pm

shrink wrote:
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Nice Fenerbahce sequence


Is it anything like the fibonacci sequence??
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Re: Identity crisis? 

Post#350 » by minimus » Sat Sep 14, 2024 8:45 am

I do think that our coaching staff can learn a lot from Quin Snyder, UTA under Snyder ran pretty good offense. Below just an example how to use non shooter screener as advantage. Snyder ran it in UTA with Gobert, and now uses it in ATL with Capela.

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Re: Identity crisis? 

Post#351 » by Klomp » Mon Sep 16, 2024 4:24 pm

I think this was a really good observation by Jake. Especially because if you think about some of Jaden's best performances, they come with Naz on the court. Naz has been more willing and able to be positioned in the corner, which allows Jaden to be above the break more frequently.

In that sense, Jaden could be argued to be more of the PF in those sets. It also lines up to some of Jaden's strong playoff performances, including the Memphis series a few years ago.

Even in sets where Jaden starts in the corner, I've noticed he'll back out to reset the offense in a way, and once he dribbles the ball out above the break he'll immediately attack. Sliding closer to the break also opens up the baseline attack for him. These types of plays happened many times during the 2024 playoff run.

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Re: Identity crisis? 

Post#352 » by minimus » Tue Sep 17, 2024 10:11 am

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I am torn on this. On one hand we desperately need more postups from Edwards, since Towns abandoned them and Reid regressed in postup efficiency. On another hand, Edwards is already in top5 in terms of USG%. https://www.nba.com/stats/players/usage?CF=MIN*G*1000&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

Will simply adding more postups turn MIn offense in heliocentric offense that no one likes? Plus I believe that Finch can still increase on ball opportunites for Reid and McDaniels.

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However, I keep my hopes high because we added Dillingham, TJ and Ingles. All three can SHOOT, make quick decisions or play fast. It might be a connective tissue for improved offense.
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Re: Identity crisis? 

Post#353 » by Klomp » Tue Sep 17, 2024 1:11 pm

minimus wrote:
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I am torn on this. On one hand we desperately need more postups from Edwards, since Towns abandoned them and Reid regressed in postup efficiency. On another hand, Edwards is already in top5 in terms of USG%. https://www.nba.com/stats/players/usage?CF=MIN*G*1000&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

Will simply adding more postups turn MIn offense in heliocentric offense that no one likes? Plus I believe that Finch can still increase on ball opportunites for Reid and McDaniels.

Read on Twitter


However, I keep my hopes high because we added Dillingham, TJ and Ingles. All three can SHOOT, make quick decisions or play fast. It might be a connective tissue for improved offense.

Adding post-ups doesn't necessarily have to mean adding usage to Ant's plate, of course. It could also replace other play types.
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Re: Identity crisis? 

Post#354 » by frankenwolf » Tue Sep 17, 2024 3:58 pm

Klomp wrote:
minimus wrote:
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I am torn on this. On one hand we desperately need more postups from Edwards, since Towns abandoned them and Reid regressed in postup efficiency. On another hand, Edwards is already in top5 in terms of USG%. https://www.nba.com/stats/players/usage?CF=MIN*G*1000&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

Will simply adding more postups turn MIn offense in heliocentric offense that no one likes? Plus I believe that Finch can still increase on ball opportunites for Reid and McDaniels.

Read on Twitter


However, I keep my hopes high because we added Dillingham, TJ and Ingles. All three can SHOOT, make quick decisions or play fast. It might be a connective tissue for improved offense.

Adding post-ups doesn't necessarily have to mean adding usage to Ant's plate, of course. It could also replace other play types.


Yeah, like the mid-range left-handed off the glass jumper :lol: :lol:
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Re: Identity crisis? 

Post#355 » by minimus » Tue Sep 17, 2024 5:23 pm

Klomp wrote:
minimus wrote:
Read on Twitter


I am torn on this. On one hand we desperately need more postups from Edwards, since Towns abandoned them and Reid regressed in postup efficiency. On another hand, Edwards is already in top5 in terms of USG%. https://www.nba.com/stats/players/usage?CF=MIN*G*1000&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

Will simply adding more postups turn MIn offense in heliocentric offense that no one likes? Plus I believe that Finch can still increase on ball opportunites for Reid and McDaniels.

Read on Twitter


However, I keep my hopes high because we added Dillingham, TJ and Ingles. All three can SHOOT, make quick decisions or play fast. It might be a connective tissue for improved offense.

Adding post-ups doesn't necessarily have to mean adding usage to Ant's plate, of course. It could also replace other play types.

Agree, it also depends on how team help a player to get the ball in good position. I remember during Adelman era Kevin Love consistently used cross screen in the paint to get the ball deep in low post, where his soft touch was the most dangerous.
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Re: Identity crisis? 

Post#356 » by minimus » Fri Sep 27, 2024 11:47 am

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Guys, how do you read it?
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Re: Identity crisis? 

Post#357 » by TimberKat » Fri Sep 27, 2024 5:51 pm

minimus wrote:
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Guys, how do you read it?

Not good. Major area to improve. Ant needs to get better at passing, maybe swap out JMcD or Gobert or Towns.
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Re: Identity crisis? 

Post#358 » by minimus » Sat Sep 28, 2024 8:25 am

My thoughts after Towns trade:

- MIN were 3rd if 3PT%, but only 23rd in 3PA. Now TC added one of the best bigs in NBA at creating C&S 3PA and one of the best C&S shooters in NBA
- NYK were the best offensive rebounding team last season, Randle is a good, physical rebounder.
- MIN were 23rd in fast beak points. Randle can help here as passer, and physical slasher.

IF Randle is healthy and buys into Finch idea of flow offense, I can see following vision:

- MIN will have two physical slashers (Edwards and Randle) who can touch the paint, collapse and make kickout passes. DDV, Conley, NAW, Reid, McDaniels and Ingles will benefit from it
- backup PG position is not problem anymore, Dillingham is protected as well in all senses
- Reid, NAW, DDV is a excellent bench core
- I believe that Randle, DDV, Ingles and TJ additions might make MIN a much, much more physical, tough team. Second coming of Memphis Grit and Grind? Randle in Randolph role?

P.S. For those who think that we have lost spacing around Gobert... Well, spacing itself is a passive thing, yes you stretch the floor, but in order to use it as advantage you must move the ball, be decisive. In this sense it means system > individual ability. Latest example, BOS comfortably won DAL series despite Brown and Tatum hitting only 23.5% and 26.3% from 3PT. But they kept attacking the paint, kept moving the ball, kept stretching the floor.
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Re: Identity crisis? 

Post#359 » by minimus » Sat Sep 28, 2024 1:42 pm

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How I read it. First, we acquired who is better volume shooter than Klay Thompson and who is MUCH better defender than many other volume shooters on this chart including Bogdanovic, MPJ, Malik Beasley and Buddy Hield.

Second, we have Reid, who is also one of the best shooters.

Finch finally has shooters who are not cons in defense like Beasley, Nowell or Forbes
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Re: Identity crisis? 

Post#360 » by minimus » Sun Sep 29, 2024 3:47 pm

Donte attempted 705 threes last season. In 2021-22 season when MIN offense ranked first in January, two things happened:

- Beasley attempted 637 threes coming of the bench
- MIN ranked first in NBA in threes attempts

If we speak about "Three Body problem" I think TC has just added such a strong perimeter shooting gravity, that might be essential to resolve "Three Body problem". Both Randle and Edwards can get deep into the paint, while DDV will be ready to shoot all threes.

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