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Offseason Team News/Updates

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Re: Offseason Team News/Updates 

Post#41 » by minimus » Wed May 29, 2019 10:44 am

Tv9924 wrote:
KGdaBom wrote:
Note30 wrote:
That plan got them farther in 6 years than we have in 14. I'd take Hinkie as GM anyday of the week.

They still haven't had any significant success and I hope they never get any. This argument has been played out a lot, but having a plan to lose as much as possible for three consecutive seasons disgusts me and judging by the teams that people want to lose the most thread many agree with me. Some people consider it praiseworthy. If you are among them that is your right.

Better to lose with a purpose and focus than just because you're bad. They stuck to their plan and now are legitimate contender in this league. Even if Hinkie came here I don't think we'd do what the Sixers. They tanked because they needed a star, we already have KAT. Building a contender around a star is a different process than trying to build a contender from scratch with no good players.


Cant agree more. Hinkie management was on completely another level in terms of execution and creativity than ours. He was like basketball Jesus: he multiplied assets, and was fired for their sins. I was wondering what they are doing when I was hearing: "we tried" from Thibs and Layden sitting on our assets during trade deadline. I am not saying that tanking is good, even if Hinkie did many other things. He balanced on the edge of craziness, but I respect a ton of creativity and perfect execution done by his managers. Hiring Gupta will allow us to implement those impossible trade scenario that usually are not even discussed. If I look how Morey and Hinkie acted over years I can see how good they actually are as basketball executives.
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Re: Offseason Team News/Updates 

Post#42 » by Domejandro » Wed May 29, 2019 11:50 am

Klomp wrote:But while Gupta’s connection to Morey may have helped him get his foot in the door, he was also fortunate enough to work in an environment that was built on meritocracy. Emboldened by the open environment Morey and Hinkie created, Gupta, who became an expert on the ins and outs of the NBA’s Collective Bargaining Agreement while developing the trade machine at ESPN, began branching out, pitching trade ideas to Morey and Hinkie despite not having the job title most would deem necessary to be taken seriously.

One such instance was the buildup to the summer of 2010, the year of LeBron, when every team in the league was clearing cap space, convincing themselves that they had a real chance to sign James and turn their franchise around. The Rockets took the the road less traveled, using their cap space to capitalize on the rest of the league’s unrealistic optimism in order to gain additional youth and draft picks, such as Jordan Hill, a future 1st round draft pick, and the right to swap first round picks with the Knicks, pieces which would prove valuable as the team tried to rebound from the devastating injuries to Yao Ming and Tracy McGrady.

That trade, according to those involved with the Houston front office at the time, was the brainchild of Gupta. Over the years this would prove to be Gupta’s forte, even more so than the comfort level with statistics that got him in the door.


https://www.phillymag.com/news/2017/01/31/sachin-gupta-trades-sam-hinkie/

As a perpetual whiner and debbie-downer, I really hope people can join me in recognizing how formidable a front-office line-up of Gersson Rosas, Sachin Gupta, and Gianluca Pascucci is.... like top-tier levels of excellent. Gianluca is one of the best scouts in the league (played a HUGE role in Brooklyn drafting Rodions Kurucs), Gersson has experience at (effectively) every level and is very systems oriented, and Sachin Gupta is a genius at leveraging cap-space in positive ways. I am very excited about this squad.
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Re: Offseason Team News/Updates 

Post#43 » by Worm Guts » Wed May 29, 2019 12:34 pm

Klomp wrote:
shangrila wrote:
Klomp wrote:Different position titles, but essentially the same roles, I'm guessing.

The difference here is the former number 2, Layden, is still on the payroll. They've added to the FO without letting anyone go.

Assuming Layden will still be in a GM-type role sure. I wouldn't be surprised if he's shifted to a scouting position.


I kind of doubt Layden will be willing to take a demotion. He's probably out relatively soon.
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Re: Offseason Team News/Updates 

Post#44 » by SO_MONEY » Wed May 29, 2019 1:33 pm

Worm Guts wrote:
Klomp wrote:
shangrila wrote:The difference here is the former number 2, Layden, is still on the payroll. They've added to the FO without letting anyone go.

Assuming Layden will still be in a GM-type role sure. I wouldn't be surprised if he's shifted to a scouting position.


I kind of doubt Layden will be willing to take a demotion. He's probably out relatively soon.
I am not sure what his willingness has to do with it? If it is a stipulation in his contract he may need to fill other roles, what he wants is irrelevant.

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Re: Offseason Team News/Updates 

Post#45 » by Worm Guts » Wed May 29, 2019 1:35 pm

SO_MONEY wrote:
Worm Guts wrote:
Klomp wrote:Assuming Layden will still be in a GM-type role sure. I wouldn't be surprised if he's shifted to a scouting position.


I kind of doubt Layden will be willing to take a demotion. He's probably out relatively soon.
I am not sure what his willingness has to do with it? If it is a stipulation in his contract he may need to fill other roles, what he wants is irrelevant.

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That's not how this usually works. Maybe this will be different, but I assume he's more likely to be outright fired than demoted.
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Re: Offseason Team News/Updates 

Post#46 » by SO_MONEY » Wed May 29, 2019 1:46 pm

Worm Guts wrote:
SO_MONEY wrote:
Worm Guts wrote:
I kind of doubt Layden will be willing to take a demotion. He's probably out relatively soon.
I am not sure what his willingness has to do with it? If it is a stipulation in his contract he may need to fill other roles, what he wants is irrelevant.

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That's not how this usually works. Maybe this will be different, but I assume he's more likely to be outright fired than demoted.
That has not been the rumor in this though. The rumor is he will be reassigned. Now is the rumor true? Who knows! But, it seems there is traction Glen doesn't want to pay him for nothing.

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Re: Offseason Team News/Updates 

Post#47 » by Dewey » Wed May 29, 2019 3:41 pm

Speculation is what it is, but Layden is likey feeling the "I'm not a fit with this new FO" and looking for landing spots. I assume there is a level of confidentiality that needs to be addressed, and if Layden does not bring a role/value, he will be gone soon. I see it as a mere normality.
Flip response to Love wanting out, "He has no reason to be upset, you're either a part of the problem or a part of the solution"
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Re: Offseason Team News/Updates 

Post#48 » by SO_MONEY » Wed May 29, 2019 3:47 pm

Dewey wrote:Speculation is what it is, but Layden is likey feeling the "I'm not a fit with this new FO" and looking for landing spots. I assume there is a level of confidentiality that needs to be addressed, and if Layden does not bring a role/value, he will be gone soon. I see it as a mere normality.
I think if Glen has the option would rather pay him to do something, than pay him to do nothing. If he is willing to forego his pay, this isn't an issue.

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Re: Offseason Team News/Updates 

Post#49 » by minimus » Wed May 29, 2019 7:27 pm

If Layden can get us another KBD and Okogie then I am okay with having him another year.
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Re: Offseason Team News/Updates 

Post#50 » by Nick K » Wed May 29, 2019 10:08 pm

Worm Guts wrote:
Klomp wrote:
shangrila wrote:The difference here is the former number 2, Layden, is still on the payroll. They've added to the FO without letting anyone go.

Assuming Layden will still be in a GM-type role sure. I wouldn't be surprised if he's shifted to a scouting position.


I kind of doubt Layden will be willing to take a demotion. He's probably out relatively soon.


Willing to take a demotion? I don't think he has a choice as long as he wants to continue to be paid. I think scouting and secondary contract work probably be the way. He'll still have a colaborative voice but no power. Just my guess.
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Re: Offseason Team News/Updates 

Post#51 » by Worm Guts » Wed May 29, 2019 10:17 pm

Nick K wrote:
Worm Guts wrote:
Klomp wrote:Assuming Layden will still be in a GM-type role sure. I wouldn't be surprised if he's shifted to a scouting position.


I kind of doubt Layden will be willing to take a demotion. He's probably out relatively soon.


Willing to take a demotion? I don't think he has a choice as long as he wants to continue to be paid. I think scouting and secondary contract work probably be the way. He'll still have a colaborative voice but no power. Just my guess.


He may quit anyway if he’s in a job he doesn’t like. Not to mention the NBA isn’t really the place to play hardass. If you want to draw quality people to your organization, you need to treat people well.
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Re: Offseason Team News/Updates 

Post#52 » by SO_MONEY » Wed May 29, 2019 10:46 pm

Worm Guts wrote:
Nick K wrote:
Worm Guts wrote:
I kind of doubt Layden will be willing to take a demotion. He's probably out relatively soon.


Willing to take a demotion? I don't think he has a choice as long as he wants to continue to be paid. I think scouting and secondary contract work probably be the way. He'll still have a colaborative voice but no power. Just my guess.


He may quit anyway if he’s in a job he doesn’t like. Not to mention the NBA isn’t really the place to play hardass. If you want to draw quality people to your organization, you need to treat people well.
No one will feel sorry for him if he quits. Additionally, treating people well doesn't include paying people to sit on the sofa. Trying to find a spot for him, where he is utilized is treating him well.

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Re: Offseason Team News/Updates 

Post#53 » by Nick K » Wed May 29, 2019 11:48 pm

This is one of the most intelligent and pithy pieces I've read ever from a poster. I agree with every bit of it. Check this out.

"A well-thought out and reasonable take:

I think the point being missed about the Saunders hire is that the criteria that determines a successful HC in the NBA is changing. You’ve got guys from the G-League leading teams to the Finals in their first year. You’ve got retread experienced HCs mired in perennial mediocrity.

It seems like it used to be that the best coaches needed to have playing credibility and a fair amount of experience. They needed to be masters at X’s and O’s, or supreme motivators. Common to all, though, was the perception that the HC is the primary basketball strategy and coaching leverage point. I don’t think that’s true anymore.

The most forward thinking teams lean on their analytics, predictive modeling, and scouting to inform the actual strategies used on the floor. The Rockets have a made a living off doing this. You think D’Antoni is solely responsible for the strategy and tactics used?

I think what you see around the League is a mix of necessary components for success: scouting, analytics, X’s and O’s, player development (these are the big ones off the top of my head). You need to have a great person (or people) covering all of these to have your foot in the door, and you need all of these working together to achieve a synergy greater than the sum of the parts. Otherwise you end up with the Wolves or Pelicans, or last year’s Bucks. Talented teams that can’t quite put it together (I’m referencing underachieving more than competing for a title, as the Pels and Wolves obviously need more pieces to compete for a championship, and arguably they underachieved given what talents they did have).

I don’t think it matters as much who covers which component as long as someone does. As a result, it seems as though the new model for success in pro sports is a marriage of two executives: one on the FO side and one on the coaching side. I say executives because these guys need to be on the same page and establish the culture and business practices – the how – that everyone will use. What they actually do is often farmed out to the best people you can get, if it’s not in your skillset.

So the Vikings have Spielman and Zimmer, and Spielman has a bunch of great scouts and Bryz (salary cap genius). Zimmer is great at defense, and gets the best offensive coordinator he can. BUT, Zimmer is a master communicator and sets the entire culture of the team, and can tell Spielman exactly what he needs in players.

The Twins have Falvey and Levine. Falvey is an analytics guy, with a specialty in pitching. They hired Rocco Baldelli this year to establish the culture they wanted in the clubhouse, AND because Baldelli is a master communicator with players. Baldelli is 37 and has never been a manager before, so the Twins hired great coaches around them, and this year the Twins are a top 3 team in all of MLB.

So the Wolves hire Rosas, who hires Pascucci and Gupta, and also sticks with Saunders, whose chief skill is as a master communicator. Rosas has stated over and over again that Saunders will be surrounded by great coaches, and that Saunders chief responsibility is to establish culture and oversee all of these pieces working together – just like Baldelli or even Zimmer (although football isn’t quite so analytically driven). Kerr is a master communicator. So is Nurse, Bud, and many of the others.

These guys (HCs) don’t have to brilliant themselves at coming up with stuff – they need to be brilliant at sorting through all the insights your analytics staff is providing you and getting your team of coaches to put it together into something coherent and then message it to players and get them to buy in. The skill your analytics staff can’t give you is the communication/collaboration part. Can you imagine trying to get Smitch to partner effectively with Rosas? Or Thibs? So I think you see Rosas choosing to hire an innate skill that’s really hard to teach (communication/collaboration) that is a prerequisite for success on the floor when using analytics, and bank on his (Rosas’) ability to hire enough good people to cover any lack of experience or knowledge sets.

The Twins pulled a great pitching coach from the college ranks. These guys are out there – innovators who simply need a chance to prove their ideas and not get caught in the aristocracy of pro sports (where there are still a lot of decision makers who are very traditional – so you get idiot former players offering hot takes on national TV and then being considered as a GM for no other reason than they were once a good player?). It’s ridiculous.

I don’t know if Saunders will be successful. I fully buy into Rosas’ other moves, and am reserving judgment until we see the Wolves on the floor (and we see who is brought in as assistants). I think Rosas believes in himself and his own ability to tell any HC what works and what doesn’t. Saunders seems like a hire in line with that, and seems like the kind of thing you will see more and more in sports – HC as an executive rather than a tactician."

Posted by Dr. Wolfenstein on May 29, 2019 | 9:42 AM
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Re: Offseason Team News/Updates 

Post#54 » by King Malta » Thu May 30, 2019 2:47 am

Nick K wrote:This is one of the most intelligent and pithy pieces I've read ever from a poster. I agree with every bit of it. Check this out.

"A well-thought out and reasonable take:

I think the point being missed about the Saunders hire is that the criteria that determines a successful HC in the NBA is changing. You’ve got guys from the G-League leading teams to the Finals in their first year. You’ve got retread experienced HCs mired in perennial mediocrity.

It seems like it used to be that the best coaches needed to have playing credibility and a fair amount of experience. They needed to be masters at X’s and O’s, or supreme motivators. Common to all, though, was the perception that the HC is the primary basketball strategy and coaching leverage point. I don’t think that’s true anymore.

The most forward thinking teams lean on their analytics, predictive modeling, and scouting to inform the actual strategies used on the floor. The Rockets have a made a living off doing this. You think D’Antoni is solely responsible for the strategy and tactics used?

I think what you see around the League is a mix of necessary components for success: scouting, analytics, X’s and O’s, player development (these are the big ones off the top of my head). You need to have a great person (or people) covering all of these to have your foot in the door, and you need all of these working together to achieve a synergy greater than the sum of the parts. Otherwise you end up with the Wolves or Pelicans, or last year’s Bucks. Talented teams that can’t quite put it together (I’m referencing underachieving more than competing for a title, as the Pels and Wolves obviously need more pieces to compete for a championship, and arguably they underachieved given what talents they did have).

I don’t think it matters as much who covers which component as long as someone does. As a result, it seems as though the new model for success in pro sports is a marriage of two executives: one on the FO side and one on the coaching side. I say executives because these guys need to be on the same page and establish the culture and business practices – the how – that everyone will use. What they actually do is often farmed out to the best people you can get, if it’s not in your skillset.

So the Vikings have Spielman and Zimmer, and Spielman has a bunch of great scouts and Bryz (salary cap genius). Zimmer is great at defense, and gets the best offensive coordinator he can. BUT, Zimmer is a master communicator and sets the entire culture of the team, and can tell Spielman exactly what he needs in players.

The Twins have Falvey and Levine. Falvey is an analytics guy, with a specialty in pitching. They hired Rocco Baldelli this year to establish the culture they wanted in the clubhouse, AND because Baldelli is a master communicator with players. Baldelli is 37 and has never been a manager before, so the Twins hired great coaches around them, and this year the Twins are a top 3 team in all of MLB.

So the Wolves hire Rosas, who hires Pascucci and Gupta, and also sticks with Saunders, whose chief skill is as a master communicator. Rosas has stated over and over again that Saunders will be surrounded by great coaches, and that Saunders chief responsibility is to establish culture and oversee all of these pieces working together – just like Baldelli or even Zimmer (although football isn’t quite so analytically driven). Kerr is a master communicator. So is Nurse, Bud, and many of the others.

These guys (HCs) don’t have to brilliant themselves at coming up with stuff – they need to be brilliant at sorting through all the insights your analytics staff is providing you and getting your team of coaches to put it together into something coherent and then message it to players and get them to buy in. The skill your analytics staff can’t give you is the communication/collaboration part. Can you imagine trying to get Smitch to partner effectively with Rosas? Or Thibs? So I think you see Rosas choosing to hire an innate skill that’s really hard to teach (communication/collaboration) that is a prerequisite for success on the floor when using analytics, and bank on his (Rosas’) ability to hire enough good people to cover any lack of experience or knowledge sets.

The Twins pulled a great pitching coach from the college ranks. These guys are out there – innovators who simply need a chance to prove their ideas and not get caught in the aristocracy of pro sports (where there are still a lot of decision makers who are very traditional – so you get idiot former players offering hot takes on national TV and then being considered as a GM for no other reason than they were once a good player?). It’s ridiculous.

I don’t know if Saunders will be successful. I fully buy into Rosas’ other moves, and am reserving judgment until we see the Wolves on the floor (and we see who is brought in as assistants). I think Rosas believes in himself and his own ability to tell any HC what works and what doesn’t. Saunders seems like a hire in line with that, and seems like the kind of thing you will see more and more in sports – HC as an executive rather than a tactician."

Posted by Dr. Wolfenstein on May 29, 2019 | 9:42 AM


:clap: :clap:
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Re: Offseason Team News/Updates 

Post#55 » by minimus » Sat Jun 1, 2019 1:22 pm

Read on Twitter


I remember him as one of the best undrafted players.
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Re: Offseason Team News/Updates 

Post#56 » by KGdaBom » Sat Jun 1, 2019 4:48 pm

minimus wrote:
Read on Twitter


I remember him as one of the best undrafted players.

Florida or Russia?
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Re: Offseason Team News/Updates 

Post#57 » by minimus » Sat Jun 1, 2019 4:50 pm

KGdaBom wrote:
minimus wrote:
Read on Twitter


I remember him as one of the best undrafted players.

Florida or Russia?


Russia. I have not seen him much though. Even if I am "russian"
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Re: Offseason Team News/Updates 

Post#58 » by Klomp » Tue Jun 4, 2019 6:19 pm

Read on Twitter
tsherkin wrote:The important thing to take away here is that Klomp is wrong.
Esohny wrote:Why are you asking Klomp? "He's" actually a bot that posts random blurbs from a database.
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Re: Offseason Team News/Updates 

Post#59 » by Nick K » Tue Jun 4, 2019 11:47 pm

Domejandro wrote:
Klomp wrote:But while Gupta’s connection to Morey may have helped him get his foot in the door, he was also fortunate enough to work in an environment that was built on meritocracy. Emboldened by the open environment Morey and Hinkie created, Gupta, who became an expert on the ins and outs of the NBA’s Collective Bargaining Agreement while developing the trade machine at ESPN, began branching out, pitching trade ideas to Morey and Hinkie despite not having the job title most would deem necessary to be taken seriously.

One such instance was the buildup to the summer of 2010, the year of LeBron, when every team in the league was clearing cap space, convincing themselves that they had a real chance to sign James and turn their franchise around. The Rockets took the the road less traveled, using their cap space to capitalize on the rest of the league’s unrealistic optimism in order to gain additional youth and draft picks, such as Jordan Hill, a future 1st round draft pick, and the right to swap first round picks with the Knicks, pieces which would prove valuable as the team tried to rebound from the devastating injuries to Yao Ming and Tracy McGrady.

That trade, according to those involved with the Houston front office at the time, was the brainchild of Gupta. Over the years this would prove to be Gupta’s forte, even more so than the comfort level with statistics that got him in the door.


https://www.phillymag.com/news/2017/01/31/sachin-gupta-trades-sam-hinkie/

As a perpetual whiner and debbie-downer, I really hope people can join me in recognizing how formidable a front-office line-up of Gersson Rosas, Sachin Gupta, and Gianluca Pascucci is.... like top-tier levels of excellent. Gianluca is one of the best scouts in the league (played a HUGE role in Brooklyn drafting Rodions Kurucs), Gersson has experience at (effectively) every level and is very systems oriented, and Sachin Gupta is a genius at leveraging cap-space in positive ways. I am very excited about this squad.


I love your intro. :)

BTW, Gupta was announced that he would be joining us 2 weeks ago yet we've heard nothing more. Any ideas? The longer it goes it can't be good. Gupta is a very important piece to the puzzle.

I wonder if there are contract problems and Detroit doesn't want to let him go for a lateral move? Does Detroit want compensation to let him go?
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Re: Offseason Team News/Updates 

Post#60 » by Klomp » Wed Jun 5, 2019 12:47 am

Read on Twitter
tsherkin wrote:The important thing to take away here is that Klomp is wrong.
Esohny wrote:Why are you asking Klomp? "He's" actually a bot that posts random blurbs from a database.
Klomp wrote:I'm putting the tired in retired mod at the moment

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