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Finch’s fix it list

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Sugarless
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Re: Finch’s fix it list 

Post#41 » by Sugarless » Sun Mar 28, 2021 7:38 pm

Worm Guts wrote:I’m not sure what you want the fans to do about it, fans have no control.If you still follow the Timberwolves, you need to have something to have hope. Either the new rookie or the next draft pick or whatever. If you’re waiting on good basketball you would have given up years ago.


I want the fans to learn through experience and to stop supporting the same type of me-first, low BBIQ players, only to make the same excuses when things don't work, year after year. It's always the youth, it's always the inexperience, it's always "look at this guy score 20 PPG (on 50% TS) and wait until he develops", it's always the injuries (like they don't happen to every other team) or the bad luck. I want fans to get mad and make a fuss about it, and then maybe someone in the organization takes note and helps bring some change.

At the same I can absolutely live with people saying "I give up, I'm fine with a losing franchise as long as I can enjoy having a home team" (I'd fully respect that), but at least don't make excuses or tell the rest of us how this is a work in progress and it's matter of time before things truly get better.
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Re: Finch’s fix it list 

Post#42 » by Worm Guts » Sun Mar 28, 2021 7:48 pm

Sugarless wrote:
Worm Guts wrote:I’m not sure what you want the fans to do about it, fans have no control.If you still follow the Timberwolves, you need to have something to have hope. Either the new rookie or the next draft pick or whatever. If you’re waiting on good basketball you would have given up years ago.


I want the fans to learn through experience and to stop supporting the same type of me-first, low BBIQ players, only to make the same excuses when things don't work, year after year. It's always the youth, it's always the inexperience, it's always "look at this guy score 20 PPG (on 50% TS) and wait until he develops", it's always the injuries (like they don't happen to every other team) or the bad luck. I want fans to get mad and make a fuss about it, and then maybe someone in the organization takes note and helps bring some change.



I don’t think making a fuss does anything. Spending money does, and this team already struggles with fan support.
And it’s not like this team is failing on purpose. I think Taylor would love to have a successful team, he just doesn’t know how to do it. Fans getting mad isn’t going to teach him.
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Re: Finch’s fix it list 

Post#43 » by Sugarless » Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:26 pm

shrink wrote:
Sugarless wrote:Forget about every guy's feelings, and focus on putting on the floor a group of 5 guys that will show constant effort on both ends and try their best. You'll get more with good coaching and 5 less talented guys that give their all than you will with a bunch of me-first wannabes that could not care less about the team. Bench whoever you need to bench, don't mind the names on the back of their jerseys.

This is how I feel in my heart, but I question if I am out of step.

I’m older than many here, and one cardinal rule I was raised with was, “Sticks and stones will break my bones, but names will never hurt me.” My coaches drove me, called me all sorts of names that would get them canceled today if Twitter existed back then and recorded their comments. And I can only imagine the ridicule I’d have faced if I went to others and said, “but the coach hurt my feelings!” And that style of coaching made me a better player and person.

So today, while I don’t go around trying to hurt the feelings of the younger generation, I just secretly roll my eyes at these cream puffs, and how every organization (not just basketball) seems to rush to coddle them from anything negative, including even an opposing opinion.

But the kids on this team weren’t raised in my time period. They were raised in the current system, and they expect to be coddled — and probably even moreso, because they probably grew up with extra attention because of their basketball skills. Today’s NBA has more player empowerment than at any time in NBA history, and we see big stars “take their talents” to one of a handful of teams. And we aren’t in that handful. Do we risk alienating talent, by treating them as equal basketball players? We know Thib’s style did not work with our players, but Ryan’s buddy-relationship style didn’t bring wins either.

I don’t know the answer. I will add that I just watched Hoosiers, like I do before the NCAA every year. I loved the scene where a good player didn’t listen to the coach, he benched him, and didn’t put him back on the floor, even when they only had four players out there. I miss the days when a coach could say, “you don’t want to play defense? Have a seat.”


I think the virtue lies in the middle. You don't need to call these kids names or treat them in a way that will be abusive and hurt their feelings, like many coaches did back in the day (and some still do at the lower levels, or in other sports), but you should absolutely bench them and show them the tape explaining how once again they failed to run back on defense, or lost sight of their guy, of how they took bad shot after bad shot instead of passing the ball to a teammate, how they overdribbled and killed the clock or how they turned the ball over due to playing carelessly.

You can still be a Gregg Popovich or a Nate McMillan type (not a guy I love, but he knows what he wants from his players and he gets results) and have a place in this league, especially when you don't have superstars in your team and you're not a marquee FA destination. Or since we are in the midst of March Madness: look at Gonzaga, Villanova, Baylor, Virginia, Florida State, Creighton, Butler (even if they haven't been at their best this year, and they don't have the longest tenured coach)... You may not have the top recruits every year (or any) but you can still build a strong program with good leadership at the top, and you can make young players follow their coach, as long as they're the right players and you put the HC in a position of power, and not of weakness.

That's the model that the Wolves should have gone for long ago. Strong leadership, a HC that knows how to work with a group of young guys which the Wolves will inevitably have at the start (so not Thibs), and a core of high character guys that will play the right way and compete every night (*). Then you add the talent, and eventually you become a winning team with a winning culture. We've seen it with Utah, with Miami (they got JB -just like the Wolves did earlier- but they haven't really been a FA destination since Lebron left), with Indiana, San Antonio... It's nothing new, really. And it's not out of date either.

(*) For that reason my #1 guy for the Wolves next draft would be Suggs, if they keep the pick. He's not the most talented player of the top-5 and he doesn't have the highest ceiling in my opinion, but he's a winner, he's a leader, he plays hard on both sides of the ball and he's shown he can play for the team if he has a coach that will put him on the right path. The fact that he's a local guy is just the cherry on the top.
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Re: Finch’s fix it list 

Post#44 » by Sugarless » Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:32 pm

Worm Guts wrote:
Sugarless wrote:
Worm Guts wrote:I’m not sure what you want the fans to do about it, fans have no control.If you still follow the Timberwolves, you need to have something to have hope. Either the new rookie or the next draft pick or whatever. If you’re waiting on good basketball you would have given up years ago.


I want the fans to learn through experience and to stop supporting the same type of me-first, low BBIQ players, only to make the same excuses when things don't work, year after year. It's always the youth, it's always the inexperience, it's always "look at this guy score 20 PPG (on 50% TS) and wait until he develops", it's always the injuries (like they don't happen to every other team) or the bad luck. I want fans to get mad and make a fuss about it, and then maybe someone in the organization takes note and helps bring some change.



I don’t think making a fuss does anything. Spending money does, and this team already struggles with fan support.
And it’s not like this team is failing on purpose. I think Taylor would love to have a successful team, he just doesn’t know how to do it. Fans getting mad isn’t going to teach him.


It won't change Taylor, who's not a basketball guy. But maybe it teaches the FO and the coaching staff. Or you can continue to coddle your young guys and get the same results. Like I said that'd be perfectly ok with me if people went out and said that's all they want; I just don't like listening to the same excuses every season.
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Re: Finch’s fix it list 

Post#45 » by _AIJ_ » Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:50 pm

Sugarless wrote:
_AIJ_ wrote:Rubio - Beasley - McDaniels - Hernangómez - Towns
Russell - Edwards - Okogie - Vanderbilt - Reid

That's the starting five and the bench unit you begin with. Insert McLaughlin, Culver and Nowell where/when needed.


I want to know who do you want to get traded on this team and for who? Just curious on how to make this team better.

Ps. I like your starting 5 if we really want to win.
LETS GO WOLVES!!! 8-)
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Re: Finch’s fix it list 

Post#46 » by Jedzz » Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:59 pm

Sugarless wrote:
Worm Guts wrote:I’m not sure what you want the fans to do about it, fans have no control.If you still follow the Timberwolves, you need to have something to have hope. Either the new rookie or the next draft pick or whatever. If you’re waiting on good basketball you would have given up years ago.


I want the fans to learn through experience and to stop supporting the same type of me-first, low BBIQ players, only to make the same excuses when things don't work, year after year. It's always the youth, it's always the inexperience, it's always "look at this guy score 20 PPG (on 50% TS) and wait until he develops", it's always the injuries (like they don't happen to every other team) or the bad luck. I want fans to get mad and make a fuss about it, and then maybe someone in the organization takes note and helps bring some change.

At the same I can absolutely live with people saying "I give up, I'm fine with a losing franchise as long as I can enjoy having a home team" (I'd fully respect that), but at least don't make excuses or tell the rest of us how this is a work in progress and it's matter of time before things truly get better.


I like what you are saying there. I would say the loudest fans have often fed into the decisions we see made, though not always. Biggest thing is maybe to demand better basketball IQ players instead of guesses on athletes that have shown none yet.
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Re: Finch’s fix it list 

Post#47 » by Sugarless » Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:05 pm

_AIJ_ wrote:
Sugarless wrote:
_AIJ_ wrote:Rubio - Beasley - McDaniels - Hernangómez - Towns
Russell - Edwards - Okogie - Vanderbilt - Reid

That's the starting five and the bench unit you begin with. Insert McLaughlin, Culver and Nowell where/when needed.


I want to know who do you want to get traded on this team and for who? Just curious on how to make this team better.

Ps. I like your starting 5 if we really want to win.


Regardless of what happens with the pick, I'd start by trading Russell. PG is still the most important position in basketball (wing superstars can take you to the next level, but you still need a good PG at the helm, or you find yourself like the Bucks or Clippers last year, or just like the Heat would have been had Dragic not gone on a tear in the bubble, and everyone knows how they missed him during the Finals). You need a floor general running the offense and Russell is not it, nor will be in the future. It's also very difficult to win if your PG plays absolutely no defense, unless you have really top defenders to make up for him both on the perimeter and inside (ask Lillard, or Curry before Klay improved his D dramatically and Draymond took David Lee's spot in the starting 5).

The question is, has Russell's contract become such a negative asset that you need to attach another FRP or a young project like McDaniels so you can get rid of it? I don't think so, at least not with only 2 years left on it. But there aren't that many teams that might be interested in a PG at his price.

New York could be the most likely option, as they'll have A TON of cap room and this won't be a great free agency, especially at the PG spot. If Lowry signs with the Heat or re-signs with Toronto to finish his career there, and the Knicks miss on Lonzo Ball, could Russell come into play for them? I hope so.

There's also the Detroit Pistons. They'll have money and some small contracts to use if needed. Will they be interested if Lonzo ends up elsewhere and they're not sure about signing a guy like Dinwiddie long-term, coming off a serious injury? Russell is not the type of player they've been adding to their team under Troy Weaver's regime, but they still need a PG and a scorer. Their project is a long-term one and Russell would become a big expiring in a year. Maybe they give it a try.

Some other options may come up depending on what happens before and once the FA starts, but there should be at least a couple possibilities in any event.

So we have Russell and his 30M out of the picture, with nothing in return except for a lot of salary relief and the chance to start building a different culture in Minnesota. What next?

I'd get rid of Culver for a SRP (I like the guy, but he needs a change of scenery and the Wolves need to move on as well) and Jake Layman (no room for him). That puts the Wolves 21M under the cap if the Wolves don't keep their pick and I'm not missing anything (a bit less if they don't renounce McLaughlin's or Vanderbilt's rights and free their cap holds). I'm fine with keeping Okogie one more year since he'll be cheap and the team still need's defense, and I'd give Juancho a bit more time with Finch. But I'm not against moving any of them as well; not in the least.

We have 21M now and a roster with Rubio, Beasley, Edwards, McDaniels, KAT, Nowell, Okogie, Juancho and Reid (no pick in this scenario). The next thing I do is assess Edwards' value. Does he net me a pick in the 6-10 range where I can get Kuminga or Barnes, and maybe something else? When you couple him with the cap space we just created, does he open a path to acquiring a talented veteran for the SF or PF spot? If he doesn't, then roll with him and try to surround him with more guys that will help build a winning culture that he can learn in. The top young guys that could make a difference (guys like John Collins and Gary Trent Jr.) are RFAs and will either remain with their teams or be too expensive to sign, but a good alternative would be offering 1+1 deals to people like JaMychal Green, Paul Millsap and Otto Porter (will he ever stay healthy?). Do the same with a bigger body like Theis or Nerlens Noel (I'd love to sign Zach Collins, but he'll look for a longer deal coming off an injury). Those contracts are great because they give you flexibility and you don't even need to use all your cap space, which allows you to be a player before the trade deadline, if a good opportunity presents itself.

That's not a sexy summer. We are counting on losing the pick in this scenario and we don't know Edwards' value out there, so we may end up 'just' getting rid of a ton of money and some really bad fits like Russell, but you're bringing the right type of veterans so you can really start building a program here, and at the very least you're looking at the 2022 FRP and a 2022 summer with even more cap space, while keeping Edwards, Beasley and Towns under contract. And hopefully in the meantime you've turned at least a couple of them into more team-oriented guys that will not coast on defense and chuck away long shots on offense.

And what happens if the Wolves keep their pick? Well, pretty much the same, except that you take into account who you draft before siginig free agents and you look even harder at trading Edwards, cause you already have enough young players to teach and give minutes to in McDaniels and whoever ends up with the Wolves' cap on draft night.
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Re: Finch’s fix it list 

Post#48 » by Rookie-Mistake » Mon Mar 29, 2021 7:15 am

Effort.

Leadership.

Lacking.

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Re: Finch’s fix it list 

Post#49 » by theGreatRC » Mon Mar 29, 2021 7:25 am

Hold players accountable.

Play players who want to play hard and want to be part of the "we" and not "me"

Develop our young talent

It's hard to judge him without a training camp, but he has made a lot of good moves when he's coaching out there.

Notable plays:
-The ATO with Juancho getting a wide open dunk to seal the Suns game
-Having the stones to pull out Edwards and not play him when he gives **** effort
-He actually calls timeouts when we need them. One of them is when Jaden was on a fastbreak and he called a timeout lmao..Never seen that before
-I like his rotations + the way he's been using KAT. KAT's shot has been off, but he's been playing a lot more free and I want the offense to run through him more
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Re: Finch’s fix it list 

Post#50 » by ChiefKeith91 » Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:13 pm

This is my Wolves wishlist for the next 2-3 years

- Get your starting PF
-Get veteran leadership
-Win 30 games
-Win 40 games
-Win 50 games
-Make playoffs
-Have at least 1 All-Star


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Re: Finch’s fix it list 

Post#51 » by Klomp » Tue May 4, 2021 12:53 am

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