Trade Talk (Part Four)

[Klomp]

Really interesting thread....

Read on Twitter

Doesn't that TE expire like right @ the start of when things open up as well....so that would buy them some time as well? Taking the TE and whatever comes with that is definitely a different way to go about it?

Would that suddenly make us an under the cap team if his money was essentially eliminated?

So say 3-team would theoretically be something like MN/GSW/3rd team (pick your target)...

MN gets TE, GSW's FRP, maybe another young piece

GSW gets AG or Turner or Capella?

3rd team gets Brooklyn pick, JJ, & wolves filler (Spellman & Evans)

Say it's Capella...these teams could've been talking about eventually getting to this end like 4 transactions & a year ago almost . But in Atl's case, I guess don't see them getting Brooklyn pick back?

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For full accuracy, we wouldn't "get" or "take" the trade exception.

When trading "nothing" for "something" like Golden State would be doing here, Johnson's salary would essentially be absorbed into the current Golden State exception, shrinking the remaining exception amount from $17,185,185 to $1,138,085. They then can use trade rules to trade Johnson and take back up to $21,047,100 in returning contracts (outgoing salary plus $5 million).

Meanwhile, by trading "something" for "nothing", Minnesota would create a trade exception for $16,047,100. However, it does not necessarily allow the team to operate as an "under the cap" team. By definition, exceptions are what allow teams to operate over the salary cap. If we started to operate under the cap as a result of the trade, the exception wouldn't be created and we would only gain the cap space created. With cap holds, I believe we will open the offseason as an over-the-cap team, so an exception would be created rather than pure cap space.

[Mattya]

Do we have some recent examples of TPE trades like these proposals?

[shrink]

Really interesting thread....

Read on Twitter

This seems like quite a stretch to me.

So now we have a player that fits into one of the 30 teams TPE’s - though one likely to be used? And every other team has players that can add up to fit in the TPE?

And while Johnson isn’t worth his contract (so a TPE is more valuable), don’t we want to keep Johnson as matching salary for the exact same reason as GSW? If the Warriors want to turn the TPE into salary to match, say, Aaron Gordon, don’t we want to avoid being in their position?

I think the poster is looking for shrewdness, when it is unlikely that turning one tradable piece into another was Rosas goal. I think they wanted a cheaper Johnson who would play more now in Rosas system than Dieng.

Edit: you may also find this thread from back in February interesting

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1943271

[Jedzz]

Not sure why Wolves wouldn't use Johnson's cap space to match someone else they want if sending him out, instead of simply helping Warriors. That is unless all these little help transactions since last offseason and future ones are part of the relationship that helped get WIggins moved out and Dlo in. If they did help with the tpe route on this they would be left holding the doggy bag just above the cap without an ability to add any new FAs without trades, only resign their own. Maybe that situation is fine for now, and maybe down the road Warriors help them out of a jam in much the same way. If the Wolves are going to be up against the cap wall at minimum, might as well exist over and work well with other teams that aren't afraid to make moves. I was against all the little help moves last offseason. But when they took on Wiggins it showed how useful that relationship can be.

[Klomp]

Really interesting thread....

Read on Twitter

This seems like quite a stretch to me.

So now we have a player that fits into one of the 30 teams TPE’s - though one likely to be used? And every other team has players that can add up to fit in the TPE?

And while Johnson isn’t worth his contract (so a TPE is more valuable), don’t we want to keep Johnson as matching salary for the exact same reason as GSW? If the Warriors want to turn the TPE into salary to match, say, Aaron Gordon, don’t we want to avoid being in their position?

I think the poster is looking for shrewdness, when it is unlikely that turning one tradable piece into another was Rosas goal. I think they wanted a cheaper Johnson who would play more now in Rosas system than Dieng.

Edit: you may also find this thread from back in February interesting

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1943271

Not saying this is the case, but I have wondered if they want to keep the young roster thing going, keeping the status quo for the most part. I don't think many trades will be made this offseason. The team has three draft picks this year plus two two-way players who I think they would like to sign to NBA deals. That's five spots necessary.

We end the season with 14 contracts. Not re-signing Turner will bring it down to 13. Cutting Evans and Spellman would bring it down to 11. Still one more spot to clear, but decisions get tougher. At that point, I think they'd cut ties with Johnson before one of the younger guys to get down to the necessary 10.

[Jedzz]

if it had nothing to do with contracts and cap, but was purely roster spots issue, then you would think they would Jettison one of the picks or Martin, or trade one of Nowell or Culver, all before dumping Johnson just to free up a roster spot and nothing else. He looked too good for that to dump usable talent just to bring in three massive questionmarks. If his final year amount is too much that is a different story. Nowell's deal obviously was set up just for this kind of cut, unquaranteed now. The two ways are also easy financial cuts. Doesn't mean that would be wise, but they didn't show as much as Johnson did.

I see a nasty little problem with draft picks, and even with Nowell. They won't have a summer league, again. The team won't have that access to see their rookie picks play much before having to start making decisions about cuts/Gleague rosters/main roster. Given history of the team's decisions Idon't see that as very helpful. What are they going to do? Draft three unknowns and drop two developing players that they know? I suppose.

[Klomp]

if it had nothing to do with contracts and cap, but was purely roster spots issue, then you would think they would Jettison one of the picks or Martin, or trade one of Nowell or Culver, all before dumping Johnson just to free up a roster spot and nothing else. He looked too good for that to dump usable talent just to bring in three massive questionmarks. If his final year amount is too much that is a different story. Nowell's deal obviously was set up just for this kind of cut, unquaranteed now. The two ways are also easy financial cuts. Doesn't mean that would be wise, but they didn't show as much as Johnson did.

I see a nasty little problem with draft picks, and even with Nowell. They won't have a summer league, again. The team won't have that access to see their rookie picks play much before having to start making decisions about cuts/Gleague rosters/main roster. Given history of the team's decisions Idon't see that as very helpful. What are they going to do? Draft three unknowns and drop two developing players that they know? I suppose.

Getting draft capital in return would be why a trade like this would be made, especially if we could get back into the 2021 draft. The trade wouldn't be "just to free up a roster spot and nothing else."

[shrink]

. The team has three draft picks this year plus two two-way players who I think they would like to sign to NBA deals. That's five spots necessary.

We end the season with 14 contracts. Not re-signing Turner will bring it down to 13. Cutting Evans and Spellman would bring it down to 11. Still one more spot to clear, but decisions get tougher. At that point, I think they'd cut ties with Johnson before one of the younger guys to get down to the necessary 10.

Good point. To spell it out more discretely

Next year, between guaranteed contracts, speculating on youth, free agents, and picks, we are going to struggle to get down to the 15 man roster limit. I split them up by Guaranteed, Team Option, Free Agents, and Picks.

1. Towns $29.4
2. Russell $28.6
3. James Johnson $16.0po
4. Culver $6.1, $6.4to, $8.1to
5. Layman $3.8, $3.9
6. Okogie $2.7, $4.1to

7. Jacob Evans $2.0, $3.6to
8. Spellman $2.0, $3.6to. (these two still have guaranteed money)

9. Vanderbilt $1.7to
10 Naz Reid $1.5to, $1.8to, $1.9to
11 Jaylen Nowell $1.5to, $1.8to, $1.9to

12 Beasley
13 Hermangomez
14 MLE
15 McLaughlin
16 Kelan Martin

17 #3 pick
18 #17 pick
19 #33 pick

Choose four to eliminate from the team.

[Jedzz]

Combine 33+17+ one of Culver or Okogie to trade up further hopefully for Vassell.

That's one less pick, and one less signed player. Now choose two to eliminate from the team. Does the MLE really take up a roster spot?

[Klomp]

Does the MLE really take up a roster spot?

It does if you sign a player with it

[Jedzz]

Does the MLE really take up a roster spot?

It does if you sign a player with it

I see.

[shrink]

Does the MLE really take up a roster spot?

It does if you sign a player with it

Right. I listed it because it’s an asset, and if you don’t use it, you’re wasting an asset.

Unlike a trade that might cost you a pick, youth, or a useful player, with the MLE you give up nothing but payroll to add a new useful player.

[Norseman79]

Cut Spellman, Evans, Nowell, and Martin

[Jedzz]

Combine 33+17+ one of Culver or Okogie to trade up further hopefully for Vassell.

That's one less pick, and one less signed player. Now choose two to eliminate from the team. Does the MLE really take up a roster spot?

Since no one else has, I'll drop two players.

Evans The team is out 2 million and i'm not gonna cry about it. Trade Johnson for future pick as Klomp outlined above.

Or, Evans and Vanderbuilt
Or, Evans and Martin
Or, Evans and Spellman if Rosas/Ryan don't like Spellman (I see some value in this player).
Or, Evans and Nowell (this will make me cry)

[Norseman79]

. The team has three draft picks this year plus two two-way players who I think they would like to sign to NBA deals. That's five spots necessary.

We end the season with 14 contracts. Not re-signing Turner will bring it down to 13. Cutting Evans and Spellman would bring it down to 11. Still one more spot to clear, but decisions get tougher. At that point, I think they'd cut ties with Johnson before one of the younger guys to get down to the necessary 10.

Good point. To spell it out more discretely

Next year, between guaranteed contracts, speculating on youth, free agents, and picks, we are going to struggle to get down to the 15 man roster limit. I split them up by Guaranteed, Team Option, Free Agents, and Picks.

1. Towns $29.4
2. Russell $28.6
3. James Johnson $16.0po
4. Culver $6.1, $6.4to, $8.1to
5. Layman $3.8, $3.9
6. Okogie $2.7, $4.1to

7. Jacob Evans $2.0, $3.6to
8. Spellman $2.0, $3.6to. (these two still have guaranteed money)

9. Vanderbilt $1.7to
10 Naz Reid $1.5to, $1.8to, $1.9to
11 Jaylen Nowell $1.5to, $1.8to, $1.9to

12 Beasley
13 Hermangomez
14 MLE
15 McLaughlin
16 Kelan Martin

17 #3 pick
18 #17 pick
19 #33 pick

Choose four to eliminate from the team.

eliminate Spellman, Martin, Nowell, and Evans....

leaving....
PG - Russell, McLaughlin, 33
SG - Beasley, Culver, Okoge
SF - Layman,
PF - Hernangomez, Vanderbilt
C - Towns, Reid

Without using trades for other players...

3 (ideal trade back) but staying put - Avdiji
17 (potential trade-up combo with Culver or Okoge) staying put - T. Bey
33 (unexpected player drop???) target 3 pg/combo guard as is - Quickley

MLE - Willy Caulie Stein - depends on how the draft plays out, but a solid defensive 4/5 combo with the ability to switch is a glaring hole on our roster.

PG - Russell, McLuaghlin, Quickley
SG - Beasley, Culver, Okoge
SF - Bey, Layman
PF - Hernangomez, Avdiji, Vanderbilt
C - Towns, Stein, Reid

Assuming Bey's reputation as a Marion type of player holds true, and he is a plug and play defensive starter he rounds out the starting 5 nicely. The reason I list him over a guy like Culver or Okoge is all about length and size, and the idea of letting one of those two play 6th man. I have Avdiji starting out on the bench as a wait and see how he adjusts to the NBA game. If nothing else he is a great pairing with the above mentioned second unit. Ideally he beats Juancho out fair and square to take the position.

****In discussing the above-mentioned trades regarding draft picks and potentially Culver/Okoge. Honestly, until we have more info regarding combine and other items, it is hard to really determine who or what would be active or worth moving around for. 1rst block falling into place will be the lottery.

[KGdaBom]

. The team has three draft picks this year plus two two-way players who I think they would like to sign to NBA deals. That's five spots necessary.

We end the season with 14 contracts. Not re-signing Turner will bring it down to 13. Cutting Evans and Spellman would bring it down to 11. Still one more spot to clear, but decisions get tougher. At that point, I think they'd cut ties with Johnson before one of the younger guys to get down to the necessary 10.

Good point. To spell it out more discretely

Next year, between guaranteed contracts, speculating on youth, free agents, and picks, we are going to struggle to get down to the 15 man roster limit. I split them up by Guaranteed, Team Option, Free Agents, and Picks.

1. Towns $29.4
2. Russell $28.6
3. James Johnson $16.0po
4. Culver $6.1, $6.4to, $8.1to
5. Layman $3.8, $3.9
6. Okogie $2.7, $4.1to

7. Jacob Evans $2.0, $3.6to
8. Spellman $2.0, $3.6to. (these two still have guaranteed money)

9. Vanderbilt $1.7to
10 Naz Reid $1.5to, $1.8to, $1.9to
11 Jaylen Nowell $1.5to, $1.8to, $1.9to

12 Beasley
13 Hermangomez
14 MLE
15 McLaughlin
16 Kelan Martin

17 #3 pick
18 #17 pick
19 #33 pick

Choose four to eliminate from the team.

eliminate Spellman, Martin, Nowell, and Evans....

leaving....
PG - Russell, McLaughlin, 33
SG - Beasley, Culver, Okoge
SF - Layman,
PF - Hernangomez, Vanderbilt
C - Towns, Reid

Without using trades for other players...

3 (ideal trade back) but staying put - Avdiji
17 (potential trade-up combo with Culver or Okoge) staying put - T. Bey
33 (unexpected player drop???) target 3 pg/combo guard as is - Quickley

MLE - Willy Caulie Stein - depends on how the draft plays out, but a solid defensive 4/5 combo with the ability to switch is a glaring hole on our roster.

PG - Russell, McLuaghlin, Quickley
SG - Beasley, Culver, Okoge
SF - Bey, Layman
PF - Hernangomez, Avdiji, Vanderbilt
C - Towns, Stein, Reid

Assuming Bey's reputation as a Marion type of player holds true, and he is a plug and play defensive starter he rounds out the starting 5 nicely. The reason I list him over a guy like Culver or Okoge is all about length and size, and the idea of letting one of those two play 6th man. I have Avdiji starting out on the bench as a wait and see how he adjusts to the NBA game. If nothing else he is a great pairing with the above mentioned second unit. Ideally he beats Juancho out fair and square to take the position.

****In discussing the above-mentioned trades regarding draft picks and potentially Culver/Okoge. Honestly, until we have more info regarding combine and other items, it is hard to really determine who or what would be active or worth moving around for. 1rst block falling into place will be the lottery.

Avdiji is a small forward.

[shrink]

Omari Spellman to GSW (in the WCS TPE) for MIN’s 2021 2nd rounder and $2 mil cash.

Why for GSW? They seemed to like the kid, he’s cheap and knows the Warriors system. Adding a piece like this now helps their 2021 chances more than MIN’s second rounder at the end of the season. It also may be added trade flexibility, since they can provide $2 mil more in matching salary if they need to add to a total - obviously TPE’s can’t be combined.

Why for MIN? Omari has promise, but he was very unhappy in MIN, stuck behind Naz Reid in a one-big system. This deal helps MIN with next season’s roster glut. While the 2nd rounder may not be great if MIN is more successful next year, it gives them back a little insurance if they fail. Since they’d traded the 2021 1st and don’t have any other teams’ 2021 1sts or 2nds, this at least gets them back in next year’s draft. $2 mil cash pays to dump Jacob Evans.

[Norseman79]

Good point. To spell it out more discretely

eliminate Spellman, Martin, Nowell, and Evans....

leaving....
PG - Russell, McLaughlin, 33
SG - Beasley, Culver, Okoge
SF - Layman,
PF - Hernangomez, Vanderbilt
C - Towns, Reid

Without using trades for other players...

3 (ideal trade back) but staying put - Avdiji
17 (potential trade-up combo with Culver or Okoge) staying put - T. Bey
33 (unexpected player drop???) target 3 pg/combo guard as is - Quickley

MLE - Willy Caulie Stein - depends on how the draft plays out, but a solid defensive 4/5 combo with the ability to switch is a glaring hole on our roster.

PG - Russell, McLuaghlin, Quickley
SG - Beasley, Culver, Okoge
SF - Bey, Layman
PF - Hernangomez, Avdiji, Vanderbilt
C - Towns, Stein, Reid

Assuming Bey's reputation as a Marion type of player holds true, and he is a plug and play defensive starter he rounds out the starting 5 nicely. The reason I list him over a guy like Culver or Okoge is all about length and size, and the idea of letting one of those two play 6th man. I have Avdiji starting out on the bench as a wait and see how he adjusts to the NBA game. If nothing else he is a great pairing with the above mentioned second unit. Ideally he beats Juancho out fair and square to take the position.

****In discussing the above-mentioned trades regarding draft picks and potentially Culver/Okoge. Honestly, until we have more info regarding combine and other items, it is hard to really determine who or what would be active or worth moving around for. 1rst block falling into place will be the lottery.

Avdiji is a small forward.

That is how he is being classified at this time, but if he comes in at 6'9 or higher and did indeed bulk up, I can see us playing him at the 4. I am not saying I view him as a 4, but I can see Rosas viewing him as a 4. Again, not saying I disagree with you, but could see the Wolves doing something like that with him.

[KGdaBom]

eliminate Spellman, Martin, Nowell, and Evans....

leaving....
PG - Russell, McLaughlin, 33
SG - Beasley, Culver, Okoge
SF - Layman,
PF - Hernangomez, Vanderbilt
C - Towns, Reid

Without using trades for other players...

3 (ideal trade back) but staying put - Avdiji
17 (potential trade-up combo with Culver or Okoge) staying put - T. Bey
33 (unexpected player drop???) target 3 pg/combo guard as is - Quickley

MLE - Willy Caulie Stein - depends on how the draft plays out, but a solid defensive 4/5 combo with the ability to switch is a glaring hole on our roster.

PG - Russell, McLuaghlin, Quickley
SG - Beasley, Culver, Okoge
SF - Bey, Layman
PF - Hernangomez, Avdiji, Vanderbilt
C - Towns, Stein, Reid

Assuming Bey's reputation as a Marion type of player holds true, and he is a plug and play defensive starter he rounds out the starting 5 nicely. The reason I list him over a guy like Culver or Okoge is all about length and size, and the idea of letting one of those two play 6th man. I have Avdiji starting out on the bench as a wait and see how he adjusts to the NBA game. If nothing else he is a great pairing with the above mentioned second unit. Ideally he beats Juancho out fair and square to take the position.

****In discussing the above-mentioned trades regarding draft picks and potentially Culver/Okoge. Honestly, until we have more info regarding combine and other items, it is hard to really determine who or what would be active or worth moving around for. 1rst block falling into place will be the lottery.

Avdiji is a small forward.

That is how he is being classified at this time, but if he comes in at 6'9 or higher and did indeed bulk up, I can see us playing him at the 4. I am not saying I view him as a 4, but I can see Rosas viewing him as a 4. Again, not saying I disagree with you, but could see the Wolves doing something like that with him.

We can call him a PF if we want, but he better rebound and defend the rim a lot better before I would consider him a PF.

[old school 34]

Omari Spellman to GSW (in the WCS TPE) for MIN’s 2021 2nd rounder and $2 mil cash.

Why for GSW? They seemed to like the kid, he’s cheap and knows the Warriors system. Adding a piece like this now helps their 2021 chances more than MIN’s second rounder at the end of the season. It also may be added trade flexibility, since they can provide $2 mil more in matching salary if they need to add to a total - obviously TPE’s can’t be combined.

Why for MIN? Omari has promise, but he was very unhappy in MIN, stuck behind Naz Reid in a one-big system. This deal helps MIN with next season’s roster glut. While the 2nd rounder may not be great if MIN is more successful next year, it gives them back a little insurance if they fail. Since they’d traded the 2021 1st and don’t have any other teams’ 2021 1sts or 2nds, this at least gets them back in next year’s draft. $2 mil cash pays to dump Jacob Evans.

I thought there was some rule that essentially says we can't trade Spellman back GSW for a year? Or doesn't that specific scenario apply here?

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