2020 NBA Draft Prospects: Thread II

[KGdaBom]

1. You won’t get to play victim with me. You quite clearly have a fundamental misunderstanding of what fallacies and strawman arguments are.

2. You can’t use defensive ratings the way you are between two players on different teams. That isn’t how that rating works. There was a time when Derrick Williams had a 31 point gap between Ortg and Drtg. How did that turn out for him?

3. What I can share is experts and scouts opinions with video evidence of this guy constantly getting consistently trashed defensively. Especially in pick and roll and the post where he gets bodied on drives from pick and rolls and pops by wings who attack his high center of gravity and abused by bigs in the post because he isn’t strong. The two most important things for bigs to be able to defend in the NBA. Literally every scouting report must be wrong because because you say so.

4. At least with most people on this board with prospects they like they acknowledge their weaknesses. Even the scouts all agree on Toppins defense. So, I don’t know if it is some Dunning Kruger effect or alternate reality you’re living in, but Toppin is by all accounts a horrible defensive player on the perimeter especially pick and roll.

1 What a load of BS. I sure do know what fallacies and straw man arguments are.

2 I sure can use Drtg however I damn well please. Okongwu who I regard as the best defender in the draft only had a 2 point better DRtg. Do I consider Toppin as good a defender as Okongwu? No I don't, but You were asking for facts so I gave some facts. I specifically said they didn't prove anything.

3 Just as I said You are sharing your opinion and what you have to share doesn't prove anything.

4 I acknowledged that Toppin was not as good defensively as he is offensively. I said he wasn't that bad on D. Not exactly a glowing endorsement. So that is where I said you were creating a straw man. Acting like I was saying he was not bad on D. I never made an argument whatsoever about Toppin being a good defender. My argument was exactly what I said before. As a whole Toppin is a very good prospect.

1. Well prepare for your load of BS posts..

It's sure lucky for him that the rest of the Dayton team carried his sorry A$$ to a top 5 rating in the nation

If you feel like saying he's the worst defender in the history of the world go for it

So now we are clear you don’t know what fallacies and strawman arguements are we can move on.

2. Sure, you can use stats however you damn well please, it just means others can ignore you when you lack the understanding of how to actually interpret them. That’s more of a you problem though.

3. I’m not the one that has to prove something. You said he was as awful as the experts say. The onus is on you to make your points you rambled on about Dayton being highly ranked or some garbage.

4. Here is the problem as to why you don’t understand what a straw man is. I never said you thought he was a good defender. I directly quoted you saying he wasn’t that awful and wanted an explanation, then you ended up baiting yourself into comparing his defensive rating to Okongwu, that’s all on you bud.

1. You just supported my points. Thank you. I didn't say anything about those posts representing your opinion or proving anything. The first post was sarcasm in support of my argument that he was a net positive and I doubt if Dayton would have done so well if he wasn't. The second is a very mild exaggeration of your stance about how horrible, awful etc. his defense was. They were both sarcastic and you have some huge interpretation issues if you didn't get that.

2 You wanted facts. I gave you facts.

3. You were the one who was talking about facts as if you were providing some facts that proved something.

4 Read my post again. You need to define what "That" means before you can argue this with any credibility. Baiting myself into comparing his stats with Okongwu LMAO. That was just facts that you requested. I'm going to help you out and define "that". His defense isn't so bad that it negates his offense. If you think it is then we have established what we disagree about. So now that we are armed with the definition of "that" how about we discuss the merits of Toppin instead of making personal attacks.

I never once argued how good or bad his defense was. I did acknowledge it wasn't a strength is about it. My argument was about how good a player Toppin is and my opinion is he is a quite good player.

[KGdaBom]

IMO it's BS to act like he isn't a top 10 prospect in this years draft. He wasn't that awful on D.

You’ve convinced me. I’ll forget all the video evidence of teams targeting him in pick and roll or on switches or on post ups.

Did teams not target Edwards? Did teams not target Ball? Did these guys become all-NBA defenders overnight and I missed the memo? Why dock Toppin so much for defense while guys like that get a pass?

Great post. It isn't about how good or bad his defense is. It's about how good of a player he is. It seems that in your opinion same as mine that his overall game would be a plus for the Wolves.

[KGdaBom]

Why dock Toppin so much for defense while guys like that get a pass?

Because playing good defense in 1-3-1 scheme is more important for a bigman than for other position.

This year in playoffs:

BOS -Theiss. High IQ, hustle, defense
LAC - Zubac. High IQ, size
DEN - Jokic. High IQ, size
LAL - AD. NBA All-Defensive First Team
MIA - Bam. NBA All-Defensive Second Team
UTA - Gobert. NBA All-Defensive First Team
MIL - Brook Lopez. NBA All-Defensive Second Team

Thanks for the double standard.

[Jedzz]

Someone explain Edwards game IQ to me. I think he might be totally lost if ever playing off ball.

Second possesion of this clip: 19 seconds in. Second pass already as they walk up midcourt and his teammate is surveying the court. Edwards just stands there next to him demanding the ball. He teamate doesn't immediately give it to him, keeps surveying, but Edwards just stands there longer until he does. Edwrds finally gets his way and the ball and waits long enough for the original teammate that had the ball to reach the far corner and then passes across court to him in the corner. That dude sends it back across court to Edwards. Edwards jacks a brick from 3. This could be the story of the next three years.

Watch on YouTube

Jedzz, I like your posts and agree with you often but I think you are missing it here with Edwards. That video showed me he's bad at making 35 foot 3 pointers. So is most everyone else.

The guy played on a very young, bad team where he was the star player who was asked to do it all because no one else could. He played like any 18 year old guy would with an inflated ego. Just remember that yesterday doesn't equal tomorrow. He won't do that if he comes to MN. Good coaching will harness his talent and his team mates will keep his ego in check. He won't be the best player on the Wolves so he'll have to grow up fast. That will be good for him.

The other thing is I do not see a Wiggins comp. No way. He blew hot and cold but played with passion often enough. Wiggins never played with passion.
If we pass on him and he blows up into a big time player, I couldn't live with that.

Responding to red highligt:
People keep saying this, yet this clip might show why it seemed like he had to do it all. He was demanding it. His teammate clearly doesn't want to give it to him here. His teammate was probably hoping he would go join the rest of his teammates and become a passing option for that player to begin the possession. But he didn't. He stood there until the player relented and gave it to him. Correct, he's likely not going to get away with that at the NBA level. But it just goes to show that maybe the narrative on this guy isn't exactly true. His ego obviously was in play there and you mentioned it. I'm wondering if given this about how he played in college could be the main reason it appeared he had to do everything. He may not have had it any other way and his college coach allowed it. Everyone saying "he had to" might turn out to be fiction. Now coming to NBA, does he have any experience to play off ball and do we know how he will react to that? That appears to be pure guessing. We know there are players like this which is why I've brought up Harden when discussing Edwards.

I can't claim you are wrong and that everyone is making up possitives about him. I'm just claiming there seems to be less proof of some of these claims being made than people's absolute statements and justification for being at the top. In fact, some proof to the contrary that I start to add to what are actually weaknesses people seem to agree on. Three level scoring is one thing I hear. Sure, but how accurately? Most upside? I'm not entirely sure there is evidence for that. Many players in this draft, some with better size, more athletic ability and more shooting skill proven should be considered with higher upside to me. Wouldn't you say that's possible?

I'll circle back to this to answer more at a later time when I've got it.

Adding: The purple: You are right. We can't say tomorrow that he won't pick up everything needed, refine his accuracy and shot choices, play off ball great, be a beast on defense. But that's the exact same claim we can make for every single prospect and not a reason to draft a player #1 overall. It's not a plus that we have to imagine he might if there are other players that have already shown they can. It's not guaranteed either way.

Blue: This is going to be true no matter who they choose. You say for you that's Edwards. For me, I think if Wiseman turns into Giannis, or something even similar yet shoots threes like Towns can, I'm going to hate living with that pass just as much. Maybe more than missing out on a 6'4 or 6'5 Harden-lite ego. Even if he ends up shooting great. Imagine if the 4th picked player becomes bigger than Lebron some day. "We passed on" is a risk no matter who we are talking about taking. But someone needs to start showing us all the proof of these unmistakeable qualities Edwards has shown that many of these other guards haven't before I'm going to just accept some of these lofty claims. Wiseman is the one player being hyped that has some unique qualities that stand out. A Harden level ego, to me, doesn't equate. It might serve him well some day if he turns out to be worthy of such a role. But even with Wiseman there is no assurance. I posted about another unique player named Alston I think on page 20. He could end up what everyone is talking about Wiseman as having a chance to be, yet no one is talking about him. Will he even be drafted? We don't know what these players will do and how we'll feel about that. Which is why I love to focus on those with shooting skill so we at least can have a player that can chip in with that no matter what and won't be a total bust.

[Mattya]

So here's the other option instead of trading for Gordon. But how can MN draft him #1 or in the top ten if RealGM consensus has him outside top 10? Does not compute.

Because the guy looks like one of the worst perimeter defenders in the draft. Is that what you want when Towns already struggles in that area defensively.

Because frankly, I'm not that personally worried about defense at this point, and I'm not sure the team is either. Why did Minnesota value and target Beasley and Hernangomez over Covington? Do you think it's because of their defensive prowess?

I want to get the offense to as high a level as possible before focusing on the defense, and after the top few guys I think Toppin helps the offense more than basically anyone. I do think that while Toppin has some defensive issues to work out, he also was put into disadvantageous positions defensively by the system and the personnel he played with.

First they targeted Beasley, Juancho and a first that wound up being #17 over Covington who is older than the core which they have specifically said they are trying to add players who will be able to best contribute to winning when Towns reaches his prime. Second, we are talking about having to use a high pick to draft Toppin. That isn’t a value play at all.

[Mattya]

IMO it's BS to act like he isn't a top 10 prospect in this years draft. He wasn't that awful on D.

You’ve convinced me. I’ll forget all the video evidence of teams targeting him in pick and roll or on switches or on post ups.

Did teams not target Edwards? Did teams not target Ball? Did these guys become all-NBA defenders overnight and I missed the memo? Why dock Toppin so much for defense while guys like that get a pass?

Because Toppin is being held back by his own body, not just a lack of coaching, how many times have players been able to turn around physical limitations like being slow laterally? How many slow, high center of gravity players have become not slow and not high center of gravity players?. He also happens to be over 3 years older than either player. If I’m drafting high and an older player he better have improved defensively. Toppin on the other hand gets bodied by college wings being 22 and looking like he is on ice skates when moving side to side.

[Mattya]

1 What a load of BS. I sure do know what fallacies and straw man arguments are.

2 I sure can use Drtg however I damn well please. Okongwu who I regard as the best defender in the draft only had a 2 point better DRtg. Do I consider Toppin as good a defender as Okongwu? No I don't, but You were asking for facts so I gave some facts. I specifically said they didn't prove anything.

3 Just as I said You are sharing your opinion and what you have to share doesn't prove anything.

4 I acknowledged that Toppin was not as good defensively as he is offensively. I said he wasn't that bad on D. Not exactly a glowing endorsement. So that is where I said you were creating a straw man. Acting like I was saying he was not bad on D. I never made an argument whatsoever about Toppin being a good defender. My argument was exactly what I said before. As a whole Toppin is a very good prospect.

1. Well prepare for your load of BS posts..

It's sure lucky for him that the rest of the Dayton team carried his sorry A$$ to a top 5 rating in the nation

If you feel like saying he's the worst defender in the history of the world go for it

So now we are clear you don’t know what fallacies and strawman arguements are we can move on.

2. Sure, you can use stats however you damn well please, it just means others can ignore you when you lack the understanding of how to actually interpret them. That’s more of a you problem though.

3. I’m not the one that has to prove something. You said he was as awful as the experts say. The onus is on you to make your points you rambled on about Dayton being highly ranked or some garbage.

4. Here is the problem as to why you don’t understand what a straw man is. I never said you thought he was a good defender. I directly quoted you saying he wasn’t that awful and wanted an explanation, then you ended up baiting yourself into comparing his defensive rating to Okongwu, that’s all on you bud.

1. You just supported my points. Thank you. I didn't say anything about those posts representing your opinion or proving anything. The first post was sarcasm in support of my argument that he was a net positive and I doubt if Dayton would have done so well if he wasn't. The second is a very mild exaggeration of your stance about how horrible, awful etc. his defense was. They were both sarcastic and you have some huge interpretation issues if you didn't get that.

2 You wanted facts. I gave you facts.

3. You were the one who was talking about facts as if you were providing some facts that proved something.

4 Read my post again. You need to define what "That" means before you can argue this with any credibility. Baiting myself into comparing his stats with Okongwu LMAO. That was just facts that you requested. I'm going to help you out and define "that". His defense isn't so bad that it negates his offense. If you think it is then we have established what we disagree about. So now that we are armed with the definition of "that" how about we discuss the merits of Toppin instead of making personal attacks.

I never once argued how good or bad his defense was. I did acknowledge it wasn't a strength is about it. My argument was about how good a player Toppin is and my opinion is he is a quite good player.

1. You literally did. Realize you have now triple downed on not knowing what fallacies or straw man arguments are. I know it’s frustrating when people don’t respond to your fallacies it completely negates their usefulness.

2. And 3, You gave me defensive rating. Then used it incorrectly that doesn’t tell me anything about Toppins horrible pick and roll defense. Onus is still on you to support your argument contrary to expert opinion.

4. After all the times you’ve insulted me and trolled me on here and in DMs you can miss me with you’re little pity party for getting called out for making a stupid arguments and not being able to stay on the topic you actually argued.

5. No, you said he wasn’t that awful defensively, so unless you want to actually address his defensive shortcomings I’ll take it you are just trying to change the subject that YOU ARGUED because you can’t actually defend your claim. Now the claim is morphing into his “offense outweighs his defense.”

[Mattya]

Also sarcasm and the use of straw man fallacies are not mutually exclusive, very much the contrary. You would know this if you actually knew what you are talking about.

[minimus]

...

Just ignore such conversations in future, mate. There's no answer when there's no question.

[Jedzz]

I've been looking at Paul Reed the PF from DePaul and I like what I see. I might take a guy like that at 17. What do you all think of Reed?

I still need to look.

[Jedzz]

All he said was that he liked the video?

He also voted for Obi at number 10 in the consensus thread. All I did is suggest he's an altenative option to the Gordon trade people because he can shoot 3's and be the large jackrabbit type they wanted, and can be effective in defense. I also don't think his perimeter defense is anymore locked in stone from what we saw in college than someone like Town's was expexted to be a defensive stud coming out of college. These are things that can be improved on or left not worked on depending on how they are coached or care to.

I've got a number of other players in mind for our picks. But I wouldn't exactly fault them for choosing him at one of them.

Did you watch the video? He looks awful defensively. Poor lateral mobility, high center of gravity, and not a great shot blocker even with his jumping ability. Those aren’t just question marks. Those are glaring red flags. Those are about the least fixable things you can find along with ability to dribble.

Towns has been pretty good defending the rim it’s his ability to guard the perimeter that is suspect right now.

Players can work on becoming more agile. Especially if they never really had before. Just like in football where once in the NFL a corner might for the first time in his life have a coach tell him to open his hips. They might not even know what that means yet and it ends up meaning everything to their effectiveness. I think there are common limitations he might have that he can't fix, such as maybe shorter arms,tighter shoulders. He either works hard to get around that in other ways, or he doesn't. Like most players.

I read one of Klomps replies about maybe not caring so much about his defense. That's one way to look at it. Plenty of high level scorers that are weak on defense. I don't think what he's shown in college is the end of all that says he will stink at everything in defense. He's not a small player. He's not a rail thin player. There will be some things he can do by default and can be trained yet to do better if he takes to it or the coaches even bother to. I still don't know if this team cares to coach it and demand that. Book is still out. Sure, a great two way proven college player would be great near the top of draft. Draft Vassell #1 overall. I would if the team really desires that and can't risk getting a player that won't play both ends as important and skillfully. But you would have to level that reqirement on all the top prospects if you are going to do that to Toppin.

I would say I do hold the proven shooting % against college players from my perspective that will never be able to examine their abilities outside of those college games proven. Towns is a great example of where my one track mind might miss a player. So I try to stay open to the option they can attempt more 3s and shoot them well once here. But that's still more important to me to be proven than say defense. So much about defense is on effort alone and very simple athletic moves. And I also know that teams can win simply by outscoring everyone. So it remains to me, sort of like Klomps view right now, most important to me. At least the first requirement.

[Mattya]

He also voted for Obi at number 10 in the consensus thread. All I did is suggest he's an altenative option to the Gordon trade people because he can shoot 3's and be the large jackrabbit type they wanted, and can be effective in defense. I also don't think his perimeter defense is anymore locked in stone from what we saw in college than someone like Town's was expexted to be a defensive stud coming out of college. These are things that can be improved on or left not worked on depending on how they are coached or care to.

I've got a number of other players in mind for our picks. But I wouldn't exactly fault them for choosing him at one of them.

Did you watch the video? He looks awful defensively. Poor lateral mobility, high center of gravity, and not a great shot blocker even with his jumping ability. Those aren’t just question marks. Those are glaring red flags. Those are about the least fixable things you can find along with ability to dribble.

Towns has been pretty good defending the rim it’s his ability to guard the perimeter that is suspect right now.

Players can work on becoming more agile. Especially if they never really had before. Just like in football where once in the NFL a corner might for the first time in his life have a coach tell him to open his hips. They might not even know what that means yet and it ends up meaning everything to their effectiveness. I think there are common limitations he might have that he can't fix, such as maybe shorter arms,tighter shoulders. But he seems to have gotten around that his own way so far. And maybe there will be things he's not going to be great about. Like most players.

Can you list some examples of players in the NBA that were slow laterally and have high centers of gravity that turned it around athletically? If it were as simple as opening his hips you would have to hope that by age 22 someone would have told him to try it by now especially considering his athletic profile. More likely he is more of a straight line athlete who jumps high than a change of directions type athlete. He doesn’t contain well and when wings drive on him he gets knocked off his verticality quite easily. That is a recipe for disaster defensively in the NBA.

[gandlogo]

He also voted for Obi at number 10 in the consensus thread. All I did is suggest he's an altenative option to the Gordon trade people because he can shoot 3's and be the large jackrabbit type they wanted, and can be effective in defense. I also don't think his perimeter defense is anymore locked in stone from what we saw in college than someone like Town's was expexted to be a defensive stud coming out of college. These are things that can be improved on or left not worked on depending on how they are coached or care to.

I've got a number of other players in mind for our picks. But I wouldn't exactly fault them for choosing him at one of them.

Did you watch the video? He looks awful defensively. Poor lateral mobility, high center of gravity, and not a great shot blocker even with his jumping ability. Those aren’t just question marks. Those are glaring red flags. Those are about the least fixable things you can find along with ability to dribble.

Towns has been pretty good defending the rim it’s his ability to guard the perimeter that is suspect right now.

Players can work on becoming more agile. Especially if they never really had before. Just like in football where once in the NFL a corner might for the first time in his life have a coach tell him to open his hips. They might not even know what that means yet and it ends up meaning everything to their effectiveness. I think there are common limitations he might have that he can't fix, such as maybe shorter arms,tighter shoulders. But he seems to have gotten around that his own way so far. And maybe there will be things he's not going to be great about. Like most players.

I break it down to traits - height, build, wingspan, BBIQ, motor, general athleticism, feel for the game. And skills -
shooting, dribbling, passing, stance, improving on base level of athleticism. Basically things that you can’t change and things you can change with work and coaching. Draft for traits (I’ll agree that some players are naturally better shooters, even though I list that as primarily a skill).

Love has the traits of being a good rebounder because he has a great feel for where it’s going and a willingness (motor) to fight for that spot. Even though he may lack other physical traits to be a great rebounder. He developed his skill as an NBA 3-pt shooter.

I tend to focus on traits - especially motor and BBIQ. Shabazz proved having one without the other is a disaster. Just how this old man looks at players.

[Jedzz]

Can you list some examples of players in the NBA that were slow laterally and have high centers of gravity that turned it around athletically? If it were as simple as opening his hips you would have to hope that by age 22 someone would have told him to try it by now especially considering his athletic profile. More likely he is more of a straight line athlete who jumps high than a change of directions type athlete. He doesn’t contain well and when wings drive on him he gets knocked off his verticality quite easily. That is a recipe for disaster defensively in the NBA.

No, I don't have the time to search them out. No, i haven't committed my memory space to holding on to the history of players that have overcome all their unique body differences to accell in the NBA. I do know a 5'6 inch player can have a ten year career in the NBA by being greatly effective in other ways that makes his defensive limitations an afterthought to his team that they deal with.

Having a high center of gravity is a comment by one person in a video clip trying to describe his uniqueness. It's not the end all of reality by any means or immediately a knock that can't be overcome. There are guys playing in the NBA and greats of this league's history that at first glance I would never assume could play a sport of any kind at any high level. But they can and do.

Let's see, top of my head, getting around a "high center of gravity".
A. Change that by developing muscle mass in lower body. Can easily happen.
B. Bend knees more, play 'lower' or adjust that play level when he sees those players attempting to drive on him. Easily taught.
C. Kevin love showed how you can stop a Sumo wrestler two times your weight with center of gravity almost at their ankles because of their stance. You lower your own, widen your stance, you lean in for leverage. It happens in every game today by pros. Or, they don't bother and they don't defend drives at all. That also happens every game today in NBA.

[Jedzz]

Did you watch the video? He looks awful defensively. Poor lateral mobility, high center of gravity, and not a great shot blocker even with his jumping ability. Those aren’t just question marks. Those are glaring red flags. Those are about the least fixable things you can find along with ability to dribble.

Towns has been pretty good defending the rim it’s his ability to guard the perimeter that is suspect right now.

Players can work on becoming more agile. Especially if they never really had before. Just like in football where once in the NFL a corner might for the first time in his life have a coach tell him to open his hips. They might not even know what that means yet and it ends up meaning everything to their effectiveness. I think there are common limitations he might have that he can't fix, such as maybe shorter arms,tighter shoulders. But he seems to have gotten around that his own way so far. And maybe there will be things he's not going to be great about. Like most players.

I break it down to traits - height, build, wingspan, BBIQ, motor, general athleticism, feel for the game. And skills -
shooting, dribbling, passing, stance, improving on base level of athleticism. Basically things that you can’t change and things you can change with work and coaching. Draft for traits (I’ll agree that some players are naturally better shooters, even though I list that as primarily a skill).

Love has the traits of being a good rebounder because he has a great feel for where it’s going and a willingness (motor) to fight for that spot. Even though he may lack other physical traits to be a great rebounder. He developed his skill as an NBA 3-pt shooter.

I tend to focus on traits - especially motor and BBIQ. Shabazz proved having one without the other is a disaster. Just how this old man looks at players.

yes

[Mattya]

I read one of Klomps replies about maybe not caring so much about his defense. That's one way to look at it. Plenty of high level scorers that are weak on defense. I don't think what he's shown in college is the end of all that says he will stink at everything in defense. He's not a small player. He's not a rail thin player. There will be some things he can do by default and can be trained yet to do better if he takes to it or the coaches even bother to. I still don't know if this team cares to coach it and demand that. Book is still out. Sure, a great two way proven college player would be great near the top of draft. Draft Vassell #1 overall. I would if the team really desires that and can't risk getting a player that won't play both ends as important and skillfully. But you would have to level that reqirement on all the top prospects if you are going to do that to Toppin.

Again, the problem is without context bad defenders all look the same. The problem with Toppin is he is a big who can’t contain pick and roll and is easily knocked off his stance by college wings. His limitations are physical. Then consider he is 3 years older than Ball or Edwards. I would guess Ball becomes more impactful defensively by age 22 than Toppin will ever be in his career. Ball already out rebounds Toppin and he is a point guard. I would guess the advanced stats for Ball defensively will be surprisingly better than his reputation on this board.

[Mattya]

and I would absolutely draft Vassell over Toppin if I was forced to choose between them for this team,

[Klomp]

If Toppin is looked at solely as a big (ergo, a center), people are probably right to look down on him and his prospects here in Minnesota. But if there is belief he could play a role more similar to Hernangomez, I think people should be taking him more seriously than dropping him out of the Top 10 in the consensus big board.

[Battletrigger]

I read one of Klomps replies about maybe not caring so much about his defense. That's one way to look at it. Plenty of high level scorers that are weak on defense. I don't think what he's shown in college is the end of all that says he will stink at everything in defense. He's not a small player. He's not a rail thin player. There will be some things he can do by default and can be trained yet to do better if he takes to it or the coaches even bother to. I still don't know if this team cares to coach it and demand that. Book is still out. Sure, a great two way proven college player would be great near the top of draft. Draft Vassell #1 overall. I would if the team really desires that and can't risk getting a player that won't play both ends as important and skillfully. But you would have to level that reqirement on all the top prospects if you are going to do that to Toppin.

Again, the problem is without context bad defenders all look the same. The problem with Toppin is he is a big who can’t contain pick and roll and is easily knocked off his stance by college wings. His limitations are physical. Then consider he is 3 years older than Ball or Edwards. I would guess Ball becomes more impactful defensively by age 22 than Toppin will ever be in his career. Ball already out rebounds Toppin and he is a point guard. I would guess the advanced stats for Ball defensively will be surprisingly better than his reputation on this board.

It could be, but that stats are from the Australian league...

[Mattya]

Can you list some examples of players in the NBA that were slow laterally and have high centers of gravity that turned it around athletically? If it were as simple as opening his hips you would have to hope that by age 22 someone would have told him to try it by now especially considering his athletic profile. More likely he is more of a straight line athlete who jumps high than a change of directions type athlete. He doesn’t contain well and when wings drive on him he gets knocked off his verticality quite easily. That is a recipe for disaster defensively in the NBA.

No, I don't have the time to search them out. No, i haven't committed my memory space to holding on to the history of players that have overcome all their unique body differences to accell in the NBA. I do know a 5'6 inch player can have a ten year career in the NBA by being greatly effective in other ways that makes his defensive limitations an afterthought to his team that they deal with.

Having a high center of gravity is a comment by one person in a video clip trying to describe his uniqueness. It's not the end all of reality by any means or immediately a knock that can't be overcome. There are guys playing in the NBA and greats of this league's history that at first glance I would never assume could play a sport of any kind at any high level. But they can and do.

Let's see, top of my head, getting around a "high center of gravity".
A. Change that by developing muscle mass in lower body. Can easily happen.
B. Bend knees more, play 'lower' or adjust that play level when he sees those players attempting to drive on him. Easily taught.
C. Kevin love showed how you can stop a Sumo wrestler two times your weight with center of gravity almost at their ankles because of their stance. You lower your own, widen your stance, you lean in for leverage. It happens in every game today by pros. Or, they don't bother and they don't defend drives at all. That also happens every game today in NBA.

Again nobody said he can’t impact the game. His high center of gravity isn’t just comment in one video. That is almost universal on every scouting report I have read from ESPN, the Stepien , etc...

If anything he reminds me of a better shooting Amare Stoudemire who never amounted to anything defensively either.

Again if bending his knees was easily taught why hasn’t he learned this at 22? Every coach teaches this. Some players are just limited athletically. Especially considering he was a late growth spurt player you would hope he would know better.

Kevin Love was an impactful defender because he had incredibly strong base and incredible rebounder the complete opposite of Toppin. He still struggled defending the rim late game and defending on the perimeter. Toppin is bad in all the aspects Kevin Love was good and bad at.