The Official Jaden McDaniels Thread

[TimberKat]

It has relevance to the value of his defense since he doesn't put up the big counting stats that a center does as a wing defender, and whether that is more valuable and less replaceable in the modern game.

Since some are balking at paying him a contract starting in the mid to late 20 millions when we are paying a defense only player 41 million next year.

I weighed in on the analogy that the NBA’s center position equates to NFL’s running back position - not Gobert specifically.

A comparison does not have to be an exact 1:1 equivalence.
Centers aren't as devalued as running backs yet, but the analogy is valid.

Do you feel what McDaniels does on the perimeter is as valuable as what Gobert does in the paint?
Because the question has significant repercussions to the future of the franchise with so many highly paid players.

JMcD is not as valuable as Gobert. JMcD didn't make the all nba defense team (10 players) or NBA all star team. Gobert had won DPOY 3 times and 6 times NBA all defense team. Cam Johnson right now definitely have higher value than JMcD. If you ask all 30 team's GM and coaches, they could have either JMcD or Cam. How many do you think will take JMcD? I hope JMcD will earn NBA all defense, all star, better than Cam and better than Gobert someday but he isn't right now, therefore, JMcD's contract should be less than Cam's.

If you are so worry about the cap and bad contracts, than why are you taking the risk to overpaid him now? According to you, "Simply assuming revenues are going to keep skyrocketing is bad business, even were there not so many scary things going on in the world." You should paid him for whatever he is worth and ensure you have the cap space first.

[Klomp]

I might be the only one, but I wouldn't mind giving him a good-sized declining contract. If you started at the 25% max and had 8% drops every year, I think it'd be roughly 5/$153M.

[younggunsmn]

I weighed in on the analogy that the NBA’s center position equates to NFL’s running back position - not Gobert specifically.

A comparison does not have to be an exact 1:1 equivalence.
Centers aren't as devalued as running backs yet, but the analogy is valid.

Meh. In the NBA, if you have a guard like Curry, you may win a title. If you have a PF like LeBron or Giannis, you may win a title. If you have a center like Jokic, you may win a title.

Do you feel what McDaniels does on the perimeter is as valuable as what Gobert does in the paint?
Because the question has significant repercussions to the future of the franchise with so many highly paid players.

It’s hard to say what McDaniels does is as valuable as what Gobert does, since Rudy has won three DPOY’s. And I certainly wouldn’t call Rudy a “defense only” player. But personally, I am far more excited to see what Gobert and McDaniels can do together, not who’s worth more.

For several years now, Minnesota’s perimeter defense has been terrible, and it has allowed opposing players to attack the rim with a full head of steam. Last year with Rudy and a rising McDaniels we got up to tenth, but I think we can be so much better this year. First, our players struggled trusting Rudy behind them, and wouldn’t make as strong initial close outs,and Rudy had to learn to trust his teammates as well. Moreover, while McDaniels more than held his own on the perimeter, last year the early perimeter defenders were DLo, a less consistent Ant, and Nowell. This year, with Conley, an improved Ant, and NAW, (and Troy Brown and Josh Minott up here too), I am hoping for a Top 4 Defense.

There is more to the NBA than the top few players.

I'm tired of the argument that his teammates need to adjust to Rudy.
We spent (wasted) the entire year last year trying to cater to him on both ends of the floor.
We dropped our high wall scheme and played drop exclusively to suit him.
It's time for Rudy to adjust to his teammates and coach on both ends and start taking responsibility instead of whining and making excuses and punching teammates who call him out on it.
He needs to realize he is a role player and not the star of the team.

He was not the same player that won DPOY last year, there was a lot of failure for him on that end of the floor too, his rim protection was missing in action a lot of the time and he got exposed by corner shooters. He needs to be better.

We had a pretty successful year without Rudy defensively playing high wall the year before.

I agree the change from Russell and Nowell to Conley and NAW/Milton should be a significant upgrade and I'm excited to see what they can accomplish with a healthy Jaden, KAT, and Naz.

[younggunsmn]

I weighed in on the analogy that the NBA’s center position equates to NFL’s running back position - not Gobert specifically.

A comparison does not have to be an exact 1:1 equivalence.
Centers aren't as devalued as running backs yet, but the analogy is valid.

Do you feel what McDaniels does on the perimeter is as valuable as what Gobert does in the paint?
Because the question has significant repercussions to the future of the franchise with so many highly paid players.

JMcD is not as valuable as Gobert. JMcD didn't make the all nba defense team (10 players) or NBA all star team. Gobert had won DPOY 3 times and 6 times NBA all defense team. Cam Johnson right now definitely have higher value than JMcD. If you ask all 30 team's GM and coaches, they could have either JMcD or Cam. How many do you think will take JMcD? I hope JMcD will earn NBA all defense, all star, better than Cam and better than Gobert someday but he isn't right now, therefore, JMcD's contract should be less than Cam's.

If you are so worry about the cap and bad contracts, than why are you taking the risk to overpaid him now? According to you, "Simply assuming revenues are going to keep skyrocketing is bad business, even were there not so many scary things going on in the world." You should paid him for whatever he is worth and ensure you have the cap space first.

You can live in the past or look to the future. Jaden is 22 and ascending and Gobert is 31 and declining.
I'm much more concerned about whether or not we have Jaden MCDaniels locked up for his prime than short term tax implications.
TC made that bed, and he's likely going to have to get rid of KAT or Rudy if we don't win big this year.
Lowballing Jaden doesn't fix that.

Jaden would have made all defense last year if JJJ hadn't been unjustly classified as a forward, and Rudy got zero all defense votes.

I think vast majority of GMs would take Jaden over Cam.
Similiar offensive efficiency, Jaden much better defender, taller, and more athletic.

Jaden shot 51.7/39.8 from 3 last year.
There is a lot of untapped offensive potential there.

5/125, starting at 22 mil and ascending. low end.
5/150 starting at 27 and mil and ascending top end.
Matching a big 4 year offer sheet with a player option in restricted free agency, worst case.

[younggunsmn]

I might be the only one, but I wouldn't mind giving him a good-sized declining contract. If you started at the 25% max and had 8% drops every year, I think it'd be roughly 5/$153M.

The first 2 years of his extension will be the big luxury tax concern years, so I'd strongly lean into an ascending salary structure.
It might be a selling point to him to start higher near the max, but agents usually discourage declining contracts because it lowers the starting point of negotiating the next contract.

If we were in a different place with our salary cap it would be perfect.

Cam Johnson's contract goes down and then back up to give them more $ in free agency next summer.

[shrink]

Deleted

[shrink]

You? You are going to complain YOU’RE tired of an argument? What hypocrisy. How any time have you posted something like this, in every thread on the MIN board? A hundred times? By now, we know what you think, and repeating your opinion for #101 isn’t going to change anyone’s minds.

Because you were such a good poster in previous years, I’m also going to waste more of my time on you here on one last chance you can see how far you’ve gone down some emotional rabbit hole on your Gobert takes.

I'm tired of the argument that his teammates need to adjust to Rudy.
We spent (wasted) the entire year last year trying to cater to him on both ends of the floor.
We dropped our high wall scheme and played drop exclusively to suit him.
It's time for Rudy to adjust to his teammates and coach on both ends and start taking responsibility instead of whining and making excuses and punching teammates who call him out on it.
He needs to realize he is a role player and not the star of the team.

Insert “Ant” in place of “Rudy” in your argument. Would it be bad that the team wasted a year catering to Ant on both sides of the floor? Good coaches maximize the skill sets of their players.
Would it be bad to drop a scheme that Ant wasn’t good at, to do something that maximized his talent? Gobert is one of the NBA’s best at drop coverage. KAT is .. not.
Should we ask Ant to adjust to his teammates? Defer more shots to DLo because he likes to shoot?
Are Ant and Rudy not already deferring to Coach Finch? (No idea where this comes from in your head)
Are either Ant and Rudy both not taking responsibility and whining and making excuses? (No idea on this either)
You know the true story about the punch - even SloMo disagrees with your interpretation.
When has Rudy ever gave any indication he thinks he’s the “star of the team?” My God.

Come on man.

I get that you have strong feelings about Gobert, but I’m hoping you can stop and really think your post. Reflect on it a few times, and decide if what you posted is the straight truth, or whether those feelings are causing you to “embellish” your facts in all your Rudy posts.

[minimus]

A few things to consider, first, Gobert defensive metrics such as rebounds and blocks were cannibalized by other players. For instance, he shared rebounds stats with Towns, blocks with MCD. Gobert had only block per game in playoffs, while Edwards had two blocks per game. It does not necessarily mean mean that he does not impact the game, to say that MIN would play as defensive minded unit is per se a big achievement. Second, look at most total shots contested in the NBA this season: Gobert is not even in top-10 list.

Read on Twitter

I interpret this stat in following way: first, we are not all-in in Gobert as defensive ace like UTA did and DROP as not our only main defensive scheme. Second, Gobert game had good chance to age well during his contract as drop C in MIN. Third, MCD role as versatile defender will only increase.

Why I think it this belongs to this conversation: first, Gobert is indeed a role player in this roster. Second, MCD is already much more that just a role player for MIN. And lastly, even though Gobert trade looks like a mistake, it should not affect our FO willingness to make right decision in future. I like Reid resigning and I hope they will re-sign MCD. These guys are our future.

[thinktank]

You? You are going to complain YOU’RE tired of an argument? What hypocrisy. How any time have you posted something like this, in every thread on the MIN board? A hundred times? By now, we know what you think, and repeating your opinion for #101 isn’t going to change anyone’s minds.

Because you were such a good poster in previous years, I’m also going to waste more of my time on you here on one last chance you can see how far you’ve gone down some emotional rabbit hole on your Gobert takes.

I'm tired of the argument that his teammates need to adjust to Rudy.
We spent (wasted) the entire year last year trying to cater to him on both ends of the floor.
We dropped our high wall scheme and played drop exclusively to suit him.
It's time for Rudy to adjust to his teammates and coach on both ends and start taking responsibility instead of whining and making excuses and punching teammates who call him out on it.
He needs to realize he is a role player and not the star of the team.

Insert “Ant” in place of “Rudy” in your argument. Would it be bad that the team wasted a year catering to Ant on both sides of the floor? Good coaches maximize the skill sets of their players.
Would it be bad to drop a scheme that Ant wasn’t good at, to do something that maximized his talent? Gobert is one of the NBA’s best at drop coverage. KAT is .. not.
Should we ask Ant to adjust to his teammates? Defer more shots to DLo because he likes to shoot?
Are Ant and Rudy not already deferring to Coach Finch? (No idea where this comes from in your head)
Are either Ant and Rudy both not taking responsibility and whining and making excuses? (No idea on this either)
You know the true story about the punch - even SloMo disagrees with your interpretation.
When has Rudy ever gave any indication he thinks he’s the “star of the team?” My God.

Come on man.

I get that you have strong feelings about Gobert, but I’m hoping you can stop and really think your post. Reflect on it a few times, and decide if what you posted is the straight truth, or whether those feelings are causing you to “embellish” your facts in all your Rudy posts.

I wouldn’t get hung up on any single word from a post (like “star”). I would view the post as a whole idea. Rudy kind of was the “star” of the team last year as in he was the focus of the entire team, in my opinion. There’s nothing YG said that I disagree with. This year will be different than last year, especially on offense.

On offense, I look for less focus on Rudy post-ups, for example. I would guess we gave him more post-ups than he’s ever gotten. He shoots a high percentage but he turns the ball over a lot because of his bad hands. I look for us to force it to Gobert less on offense, play him less in crunch time instead of presenting opportunities for his shaky FT shooting, etc.

On defense, Rudy was coached to “stay home” and not chase shots. We were good on defense, but Rudy did have the lowest block rate of his career (career average is 6% and he was 4%). I expect that block rate to go up because Rudy will be more active (because we’ve learned that an intimidating Rudy is the best Rudy).

The overall point is that Rudy is an unorthodox player. Up until now, for his teams to be good (Utah), pretty much the whole system had to be designed around him. We leaned into that hard last year. Imo, too much. A little more D focus from him, a little less O focus on him, and I think we’ll be better off.

(Btw, I didn’t understand the metaphor with Ant—may have been related to “star” term? I don’t know. Too philosophical for me, maybe.)

[shrink]

I appreciate the tone of your response thinktank, and I will try to do better to respond the same way.

The evidence a poster provides to support their opinion matters. If a poster says that Rudy thinks he’s a star, or doesn’t defer to the coach, others may believe that is true, and base their opinions on false information.

People can have whatever opinions they want, but in order for us to discuss them with others, we need to agree to have a common ground of what the facts are. If their cases are strong enough, they shouldn’t have to embellish the facts to justify their view.

[BlacJacMac]

A few things to consider, first, Gobert defensive metrics such as rebounds and blocks were cannibalized by other players. For instance, he shared rebounds stats with Towns, blocks with MCD. Gobert had only block per game in playoffs, while Edwards had two blocks per game. It does not necessarily mean mean that he does not impact the game, to say that MIN would play as defensive minded unit is per se a big achievement. Second, look at most total shots contested in the NBA this season: Gobert is not even in top-10 list.

We were 26th in DRB%, so there were a whole lot more rebounds to get than what we did.

And we averaged 5.4 blocks/game. That's a good number, but I don't think McDaniels help defense took away that many of Rudy's opportunities.

[thinktank]

I appreciate the tone of your response thinktank, and I will try to do better to respond the same way.

The evidence a poster provides to support their opinion matters. If a poster says that Rudy thinks he’s a star, or doesn’t defer to the coach, others may believe that is true, and base their opinions on false information.

People can have whatever opinions they want, but in order for us to discuss them with others, we need to agree to have a common ground of what the facts are. If their cases are strong enough, they shouldn’t have to embellish the facts to justify their view.

“Deferring to the coach”, “Rudy thinks he’s a star”, “false information”.

It’s fine if a poster has a theory, especially when it deals with things that can’t be proven like “Rudy thinks he’s a star” (poster didn’t say that like that), for example.

This isn’t calculus IV, it’s a game. A poster can choose to include zero data and they’re still as entitled to their opinion as a poster’s more statistical post.

[shrink]

I appreciate the tone of your response thinktank, and I will try to do better to respond the same way.

The evidence a poster provides to support their opinion matters. If a poster says that Rudy thinks he’s a star, or doesn’t defer to the coach, others may believe that is true, and base their opinions on false information.

People can have whatever opinions they want, but in order for us to discuss them with others, we need to agree to have a common ground of what the facts are. If their cases are strong enough, they shouldn’t have to embellish the facts to justify their view.

“Deferring to the coach”, “Rudy thinks he’s a star”, “false information”.

It’s fine if a poster has a theory, especially when it deals with things that can’t be proven like “Rudy thinks he’s a star” (poster didn’t say that like that), for example.

This isn’t calculus IV, it’s a game. A poster can choose to include zero data and they’re still as entitled to their opinion as a poster’s more statistical post.

I fundamentally disagree with this. Zero information >> False information.

There is no evidence that Rudy thinks he’s the star of the team. Nothing he’s done, and nothing he’s said.

There is no evidence that Rudy hasn’t deferred to Finch. No arguments on bench, no quick hooks, no media.

Can people have opinions with no evidence? Sure, and we should give opinions without evidence the weight they deserve, particularly when we agree with them. But there is a problem when people post false evidence, because it misleads people, and it removes common ground. As an extreme example, there would be a difference between saying “Rudy won DPOYs, but I think those aren’t important because they were in the past” versus saying, “Rudy never won a DPOY.” At a minimum, I think they should include an “I think that,” to make readers aware a “fact” they post isn’t necessarily a “fact.” We should all have the chance to form our opinions based on actual facts.

[thinktank]

I appreciate the tone of your response thinktank, and I will try to do better to respond the same way.

The evidence a poster provides to support their opinion matters. If a poster says that Rudy thinks he’s a star, or doesn’t defer to the coach, others may believe that is true, and base their opinions on false information.

People can have whatever opinions they want, but in order for us to discuss them with others, we need to agree to have a common ground of what the facts are. If their cases are strong enough, they shouldn’t have to embellish the facts to justify their view.

“Deferring to the coach”, “Rudy thinks he’s a star”, “false information”.

It’s fine if a poster has a theory, especially when it deals with things that can’t be proven like “Rudy thinks he’s a star” (poster didn’t say that like that), for example.

This isn’t calculus IV, it’s a game. A poster can choose to include zero data and they’re still as entitled to their opinion as a poster’s more statistical post.

I fundamentally disagree with this. Zero information >> False information.

There is no evidence that Rudy thinks he’s the star of the team. Nothing he’s done, and nothing he’s said.

There is no evidence that Rudy hasn’t deferred to Finch. No arguments on bench, no quick hooks, no media.

Can people have opinions with no evidence? Sure, and we should give opinions without evidence the weight they deserve, particularly when we agree with them. But there is a problem when people post false evidence, because it misleads people, and it removes common ground. As an extreme example, there would be a difference between saying “Rudy won DPOYs, but I think those aren’t important because they were in the past” versus saying, “Rudy never won a DPOY.” At a minimum, I think they should include an “I think that,” to make readers aware a “fact” they post isn’t necessarily a “fact.” We should all have the chance to form our opinions based on actual facts.

I just like to speak to the posts themselves instead of hypothetical stuff. We don’t need to make up metaphors here, we have the post itself. My comments in brackets:

younggunsmn wrote:
I'm tired of the argument that his teammates need to adjust to Rudy. [Me too]

We spent (wasted) the entire year last year trying to cater to him on both ends of the floor. [I agree]

We dropped our high wall scheme and played drop exclusively to suit him. [True. Great point.]

It's time for Rudy to adjust to his teammates and coach on both ends and start taking responsibility instead of whining and making excuses and punching teammates who call him out on it. [Based on the above point, I see what the poster is saying. Finch changed our defensive scheme when Rudy got here. It’s never ok to punch a teammate. Let’s hope that never happens again.]

He needs to realize he is a role player and not the star of the team. [I agree. I’m not a fan of changing the entire identity of the team around primarily one-way players. (Yes, Rudy sets great screens.)]




Nothing that poster wrote was off-base, imo. If you think it’s some wild take, then agree to disagree and move on. Some differences cannot be bridged. And that’s ok!

[shrink]

For others, this is a perfect example of why you need to be more discerning of facts when you agree with the overall opinion.

[TimberKat]

How obsessed are you guys about Gobert ? This thread is about JMcD. I want to know when is he signed and how much he signed for. By the way, is he playing FIBA? We have half of the team playing in the tournament, he shouldn't be left out (exaggeration)

[younggunsmn]

You? You are going to complain YOU’RE tired of an argument? What hypocrisy. How any time have you posted something like this, in every thread on the MIN board? A hundred times? By now, we know what you think, and repeating your opinion for #101 isn’t going to change anyone’s minds.

Because you were such a good poster in previous years, I’m also going to waste more of my time on you here on one last chance you can see how far you’ve gone down some emotional rabbit hole on your Gobert takes.

I'm tired of the argument that his teammates need to adjust to Rudy.
We spent (wasted) the entire year last year trying to cater to him on both ends of the floor.
We dropped our high wall scheme and played drop exclusively to suit him.
It's time for Rudy to adjust to his teammates and coach on both ends and start taking responsibility instead of whining and making excuses and punching teammates who call him out on it.
He needs to realize he is a role player and not the star of the team.

Insert “Ant” in place of “Rudy” in your argument. Would it be bad that the team wasted a year catering to Ant on both sides of the floor? Good coaches maximize the skill sets of their players.
Would it be bad to drop a scheme that Ant wasn’t good at, to do something that maximized his talent? Gobert is one of the NBA’s best at drop coverage. KAT is .. not.
Should we ask Ant to adjust to his teammates? Defer more shots to DLo because he likes to shoot?
Are Ant and Rudy not already deferring to Coach Finch? (No idea where this comes from in your head)
Are either Ant and Rudy both not taking responsibility and whining and making excuses? (No idea on this either)
You know the true story about the punch - even SloMo disagrees with your interpretation.
When has Rudy ever gave any indication he thinks he’s the “star of the team?” My God.

Come on man.

I get that you have strong feelings about Gobert, but I’m hoping you can stop and really think your post. Reflect on it a few times, and decide if what you posted is the straight truth, or whether those feelings are causing you to “embellish” your facts in all your Rudy posts.

Did I shoot your dog or something?
I'm the one going down an emotional rabbit hole?
You get super triggered every time I criticize Gobert and it's the focal point of the friction between us ever since the trade.

Anthony Edwards is one of the most talented offensive players of his generation who should have the ball in his hands a significant amount of the time. He had an INCREDIBLE series versus the nuggets.
He is THE focal point of our entire future.
Rudy Gobert is one of the least skilled offensive players in the league.
Ant received all-defense votes last year and Rudy did not.
One is 22 and still learning, the other is 31. They are not the same.
None of that is "muh feelings".

It was reported in the media (and likely leaked by an agent as damage control) that Slo-Mo barking at Gobert to "block an effing shot" started the incident, and instead of taking the high road Gobert went back at him with "grab a rebound" which escalated it.
I imagine what was actually said was a good deal more colorful.
Does that sound like a teammate who is satisfied with Gobert's defense?

We spent an entire SEASON going out of our way to run pick and rolls and throw lobs to Gobert to get him involved.
We scrapped our successful defensive scheme from the previous season which finally allowed our Supermax other generational talent (KAT) to become an average or better defender, and we did that solely to suit Gobert.
He had teammate after teammate pile up turnovers forcing him lobs and paint passes.
Does that sound like a bunch of selfish guys unwilling to adjust to Gobert? (I will give you D-Lo though)
Ant averaged 2 blocks per game in the playoffs adjusting his defense to help his teammates with rim protection, which was spotty even with 2 supposed shotblockers on the floor.

It was everyone else who sacrificed for Gobert. If we want to win big he needs to return the favor.
That is my argument. I' don't think guys practicing lobs with him more will help a whole helluva lot, there are going to have to be schematic changes. More Steven Adams setting 5 or 6 crushing screens a possession and less Clint Capela lob chasing.
Interesting comment from FInch in one of the playoff postgames about the Nuggets setting like 9 screens a possession with any number of them being illegal. Maybe thats one way forward.

Gobert was the star and focal point of his team for many years. Those days are gone.
Being the best roleplayer he can be will give us the best chance at winning, and I hope he realizes that.
I'm not inferring he does or doesn't realize that or casting aspersions about his ego when I say that.
Perhaps my language left too much room for interpretation, but you always jump to the worst version of whatever I say.
It's a big adjustment from focal point of your team to 3rd or 4th fiddle.
I'm not sure Rudy has made it yet, I would very much like to believe he can.

Thank you for the defense and paraphrasing thinktank, that is along the lines of what I intended.
I'm exhausted lately and yes maybe I am posting way too much.

I'm very excited about the team and its kind of my nature to try to get the best handle on its future that I can, that's kind of what this place is for.
We may not always agree, but I'm tired of getting my head bit off every time I say something less than flattering about Gobert.

I even made a concerted effort to note a part of Shrink's post I agreed with at the end of my post but he cropped that out and went all out to flame my Gobert take. I don't need your psychobabble about my intentions.
I'd rather we just agree to disagree about Gobert moving forward.

[shrink]

We may not always agree, but I'm tired of getting my head bit off every time I say something less than flattering about Gobert.

I even made a concerted effort to note a part of Shrink's post I agreed with at the end of my post but he cropped that out and went all out to flame my Gobert take. I don't need your psychobabble about my intentions.
I'd rather we just agree to disagree about Gobert moving forward.

Our “identity” was not one season of high wall, which was based on Towns’ struggles with drop.
Gobert is great at drop AND our defense improved! Still you complain. Says something about you.
Good coaches maximize the collective talent on their roster, whether that’s Rudy or Ant.
You know the story on the punch. SloMo wanted Rudy to play better, through back spasms, an injury that caused SloMo to miss games too. SloMo literally said it was “no big deal” and “not the first player to swing on him.” His teammates didn’t even want him to miss a game. Because of your feelings about Gobert, it’s a bigger deal to you than them.
There is no evidence Rudy thinks he’s the star. None.
There is no evidence that Rudy ignores the coach. None.
Thinktank endorses not true details because he posts them. It should cause you some self-reflection at least.

Do you think your WoT posts could honestly be mildly characterized as “saying something less than flattering?” As I said to thinktank, I don’t care what people’s opinions are. If you defended Gobert because he is 7-6 and can bench 600 pounds, I’d call that out too. I am tired of people knowingly posting untrue “facts” to support their opinions.


You’re tired? We’re all tired.

Are you capable of moving forward on Gobert? Or at least not showering these same exaggerated WoT Gobert complaints in every thread for another year?

[KGdaBom]

You? You are going to complain YOU’RE tired of an argument? What hypocrisy. How any time have you posted something like this, in every thread on the MIN board? A hundred times? By now, we know what you think, and repeating your opinion for #101 isn’t going to change anyone’s minds.

Because you were such a good poster in previous years, I’m also going to waste more of my time on you here on one last chance you can see how far you’ve gone down some emotional rabbit hole on your Gobert takes.

I'm tired of the argument that his teammates need to adjust to Rudy.
We spent (wasted) the entire year last year trying to cater to him on both ends of the floor.
We dropped our high wall scheme and played drop exclusively to suit him.
It's time for Rudy to adjust to his teammates and coach on both ends and start taking responsibility instead of whining and making excuses and punching teammates who call him out on it.
He needs to realize he is a role player and not the star of the team.

Insert “Ant” in place of “Rudy” in your argument. Would it be bad that the team wasted a year catering to Ant on both sides of the floor? Good coaches maximize the skill sets of their players.
Would it be bad to drop a scheme that Ant wasn’t good at, to do something that maximized his talent? Gobert is one of the NBA’s best at drop coverage. KAT is .. not.
Should we ask Ant to adjust to his teammates? Defer more shots to DLo because he likes to shoot?
Are Ant and Rudy not already deferring to Coach Finch? (No idea where this comes from in your head)
Are either Ant and Rudy both not taking responsibility and whining and making excuses? (No idea on this either)
You know the true story about the punch - even SloMo disagrees with your interpretation.
When has Rudy ever gave any indication he thinks he’s the “star of the team?” My God.

Come on man.

I get that you have strong feelings about Gobert, but I’m hoping you can stop and really think your post. Reflect on it a few times, and decide if what you posted is the straight truth, or whether those feelings are causing you to “embellish” your facts in all your Rudy posts.

Did I shoot your dog or something?
I'm the one going down an emotional rabbit hole?
You get super triggered every time I criticize Gobert and it's the focal point of the friction between us ever since the trade.

Anthony Edwards is one of the most talented offensive players of his generation who should have the ball in his hands a significant amount of the time. He had an INCREDIBLE series versus the nuggets.
He is THE focal point of our entire future.
Rudy Gobert is one of the least skilled offensive players in the league.
Ant received all-defense votes last year and Rudy did not.
One is 22 and still learning, the other is 31. They are not the same.
None of that is "muh feelings".

It was reported in the media (and likely leaked by an agent as damage control) that Slo-Mo barking at Gobert to "block an effing shot" started the incident, and instead of taking the high road Gobert went back at him with "grab a rebound" which escalated it.
I imagine what was actually said was a good deal more colorful.
Does that sound like a teammate who is satisfied with Gobert's defense?

We spent an entire SEASON going out of our way to run pick and rolls and throw lobs to Gobert to get him involved.
We scrapped our successful defensive scheme from the previous season which finally allowed our Supermax other generational talent (KAT) to become an average or better defender, and we did that solely to suit Gobert.
He had teammate after teammate pile up turnovers forcing him lobs and paint passes.
Does that sound like a bunch of selfish guys unwilling to adjust to Gobert? (I will give you D-Lo though)
Ant averaged 2 blocks per game in the playoffs adjusting his defense to help his teammates with rim protection, which was spotty even with 2 supposed shotblockers on the floor.

It was everyone else who sacrificed for Gobert. If we want to win big he needs to return the favor.
That is my argument. I' don't think guys practicing lobs with him more will help a whole helluva lot, there are going to have to be schematic changes. More Steven Adams setting 5 or 6 crushing screens a possession and less Clint Capela lob chasing.
Interesting comment from FInch in one of the playoff postgames about the Nuggets setting like 9 screens a possession with any number of them being illegal. Maybe thats one way forward.

Gobert was the star and focal point of his team for many years. Those days are gone.
Being the best roleplayer he can be will give us the best chance at winning, and I hope he realizes that.
I'm not inferring he does or doesn't realize that or casting aspersions about his ego when I say that.
Perhaps my language left too much room for interpretation, but you always jump to the worst version of whatever I say.
It's a big adjustment from focal point of your team to 3rd or 4th fiddle.
I'm not sure Rudy has made it yet, I would very much like to believe he can.

Thank you for the defense and paraphrasing thinktank, that is along the lines of what I intended.
I'm exhausted lately and yes maybe I am posting way too much.

I'm very excited about the team and its kind of my nature to try to get the best handle on its future that I can, that's kind of what this place is for.
We may not always agree, but I'm tired of getting my head bit off every time I say something less than flattering about Gobert.

I even made a concerted effort to note a part of Shrink's post I agreed with at the end of my post but he cropped that out and went all out to flame my Gobert take. I don't need your psychobabble about my intentions.
I'd rather we just agree to disagree about Gobert moving forward.

Once again the use of the word role player. Every player on our team plays a role/hence role player. Maybe Rudy can be the player he was in Utah once again. If he is he is one of the most important players on our team. Play defense, get rebounds, set screens, block shots, dunk the ball and shoot 70%. That's all I ask of him.

[younggunsmn]

We may not always agree, but I'm tired of getting my head bit off every time I say something less than flattering about Gobert.

I even made a concerted effort to note a part of Shrink's post I agreed with at the end of my post but he cropped that out and went all out to flame my Gobert take. I don't need your psychobabble about my intentions.
I'd rather we just agree to disagree about Gobert moving forward.

You’re tired? We’re all tired.

CAN you move forward on Gobert? Do you still need to turn every thread into an exaggerated WoT complaint, over and over?

I'm not going to cease from discussing Gobert just because it triggers you.
He's a big part of the team and will keep popping up in many areas including trades, salary cap issues and teammates.

You're the one who keeps flaming and exaggerating my Gobert takes, thereby thrusting him to the forefront of the discussion, instead of discussing him as part of the entire picture, which includes comparisons to Jaden McDaniels as above average interior/perimeter defenders and what is the relative value of that, as well as the effect of his contract on a potential Jaden extension.

I''m not going to respond to anything you say about Gobert anymore though or anything you say about something I said about Gobert,
Because at this point we are both hopelessly dug in and it's not good for anyone.
That's very unlikely to change until they start playing basketball games again.
Please do the same if you can't keep it from being about me.

I don't see anything out of line I said in this thread other than maybe overenthusiastic posting.
I didn't deserve that last tirade. You're better than that.