Jimmy Butler Traded to Philadelphia (Discussion Continued)

[Jedzz]

My "tribute" video on Jimmy Butler picked up some steam on r/NBA and on YouTube, so I figured I could post it here:

Enjoy

Watch on YouTube

I gave a +1 for the effort. Those were some ugly misses alright Butler. But that final clip of Wiggins having a single game winner just outs you. You could make a never ending video of Wiggins' absolute clanks since being here. Nobody has more since he got here.

I never thought Butler was clutch for game ending shots here. He always looked to be setting up fouls more than trying to hit it. Maybe because this team doesn't space well and everything is closely contested. But he's hit some. I always thought the team should have made Towns the final shot guy because he's got a great 3 stroke and his height helps him shoot even while being defended closely. Butler needs a good rhythm to shoot well. Most people do, and this team doesn't have great rhythm all that often.

Butler this year reminded us he can shoot. He should have dropped the mic and stopped playing here after that game.

Watch on YouTube

[PharmD]

My "tribute" video on Jimmy Butler picked up some steam on r/NBA and on YouTube, so I figured I could post it here:

Enjoy

Watch on YouTube

Three thoughts:
1) It's amazing how often we're taking the ball out under our own basket because Thibs runs out of timeouts.
2) I still can't believe Thibs put 3 defenders in the backcourt with 1 second left and the ball 71 feet from the basket.
3) Man things were looking so great at the time of that Wiggins shot.

[PharmD]

Minor detail, but I believe it'd be easier for us to get them in tomorrow night than PHI playing Butler simply because we're playing at home. Do the teams ever conduct their physicals on the road? Maybe so, but I'd imagine that's why Butler won't play until Wednesday.

I have critical fantasy basketball decisions to be made based on whether RoCo plays tomorrow or not. I wish there was an answer. Couldn't the physicals have been done already?

Even if they were, I find it hard to believe they'll play tomorrow without one practice under their belts. Tomorrow's game is going to be rough. Already down Teague, possibly down Wiggins. I expect some CJ Williams greatness for sure.

I can't imagine it takes too long to learn Thibs' system. "We just take turns calling for the ball. Whoever gets it, shoots it. Everyone else can just stand and watch. And defense, always over-rotate to the strong side. Force their shooters to hit wide open threes. If you get tired and need to come out of the game just stop being sawft."

[PharmD]

You may be right AirP and I was with you defending Jimmy and Thibodeau. However, after the BS that jimmy pulled he has proven to me that he is a POS. I'm glad the Wolves got my dream deal for him.

It was BS but I also have 2 questions that may never be answered.
1. Why did Butler want out so bad?
2. Why did it get as far as it did.

#2 I believe it got as far as it did because Thibs thought whatever #1 was, it would work itself out and the extra money Minnesota could give Butler would be a big enough incentive, he was wrong which brings us right back to why was it so #)($#)(#$ important for Butler to get out of Minnesota. It's got to be more then just money because it sounds like Taylor was open to paying Butler. If it's as simple as Butler didn't see a bright future with Towns and Wiggins because of their lack of caring if they won or lost, that's a huge problem for Minnesota in the long run. I look at someone like D.Mitchell and see him injured in the playoffs last year as a rookie, upset he's out of the game and willing to go back in while in pain to help his team. I don't see anything like that in Towns or Wiggins. Wiggins is just laid back, which can be fine as a 3rd wheel, but not as a max player and Towns, he's skilled enough but he's not mentally ready to be a winner in the NBA.

It sucks for the Minnesota fanbase, I don't know how you acquire another great talent to the team other then getting really lucky in the draft.

1) Jimmy has a "Mirror, Mirror on the wall" complex and can't handle KAT being the franchise guy. Jimmy needs to be The Man. Hence the absurd chucking in crunch time and freezing KAT out. If you gave Jimmy the option of "Either A) Towns can hit the game winner and you'll win 100%, or B) You can shoot the big shot and the team will win only if you make it" he'd choose B every time, while telling you he'd chose A.

2) Thibs is a very stubborn person. At the very least Thibs needed to drag things out long enough that he couldn't be replaced.

I also think it's kind of strange that you're using the analogy of Donovan Mitchell playing with a hurt foot to criticize a guy that has never missed a game in support of General Soreness.

[Killboard]

I am not even chasing generational talent, but we need to add at least another star and where we are picking, much thanks to our new incoming players we will be on the outside of having any historical or statistical advantage at landing one. This is made even worse by the fact we won't be making the playoffs either.

It would almost be comical if not for the fact they actually thought it was a good idea.

Chances in the teens are far and between but not impossible. George, Leonard, Giannis, Donovan Mitchell all picked 10 or afterwards.

I never said impossible. I said the chances are not to our advantage. Do you want to waste the time we have with KAT to build around waiting for something that is unlikely to happen? That is what it comes down to. If the answer is NO, then we should have looked at a different deal, because that is what we did.

Sent from my LGMS428 using Tapatalk

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Taking into account how late the issue was handled I don't see many bad teams sending unprotected high lotto picks for Butler. We also should have take salary back which would have pushed the timeline.

[KGdaBom]

You may be right AirP and I was with you defending Jimmy and Thibodeau. However, after the BS that jimmy pulled he has proven to me that he is a POS. I'm glad the Wolves got my dream deal for him.

It was BS but I also have 2 questions that may never be answered.
1. Why did Butler want out so bad?
2. Why did it get as far as it did.

#2 I believe it got as far as it did because Thibs thought whatever #1 was, it would work itself out and the extra money Minnesota could give Butler would be a big enough incentive, he was wrong which brings us right back to why was it so #)($#)(#$ important for Butler to get out of Minnesota. It's got to be more then just money because it sounds like Taylor was open to paying Butler. If it's as simple as Butler didn't see a bright future with Towns and Wiggins because of their lack of caring if they won or lost, that's a huge problem for Minnesota in the long run. I look at someone like D.Mitchell and see him injured in the playoffs last year as a rookie, upset he's out of the game and willing to go back in while in pain to help his team. I don't see anything like that in Towns or Wiggins. Wiggins is just laid back, which can be fine as a 3rd wheel, but not as a max player and Towns, he's skilled enough but he's not mentally ready to be a winner in the NBA.

It sucks for the Minnesota fanbase, I don't know how you acquire another great talent to the team other then getting really lucky in the draft.

1) Jimmy has a "Mirror, Mirror on the wall" complex and can't handle KAT being the franchise guy. Jimmy needs to be The Man. Hence the absurd chucking in crunch time and freezing KAT out. If you gave Jimmy the option of "Either A) Towns can hit the game winner and you'll win 100%, or B) You can shoot the big shot and the team will win only if you make it" he'd choose B every time, while telling you he'd chose A.

2) Thibs is a very stubborn person. At the very least Thibs needed to drag things out long enough that he couldn't be replaced.

I also think it's kind of strange that you're using the analogy of Donovan Mitchell playing with a hurt foot to criticize a guy that has never missed a game in support of General Soreness.

Has KAT missed even one game in his career? Wiggins I think had missed one or two before this season.

[PharmD]

It was BS but I also have 2 questions that may never be answered.
1. Why did Butler want out so bad?
2. Why did it get as far as it did.

#2 I believe it got as far as it did because Thibs thought whatever #1 was, it would work itself out and the extra money Minnesota could give Butler would be a big enough incentive, he was wrong which brings us right back to why was it so #)($#)(#$ important for Butler to get out of Minnesota. It's got to be more then just money because it sounds like Taylor was open to paying Butler. If it's as simple as Butler didn't see a bright future with Towns and Wiggins because of their lack of caring if they won or lost, that's a huge problem for Minnesota in the long run. I look at someone like D.Mitchell and see him injured in the playoffs last year as a rookie, upset he's out of the game and willing to go back in while in pain to help his team. I don't see anything like that in Towns or Wiggins. Wiggins is just laid back, which can be fine as a 3rd wheel, but not as a max player and Towns, he's skilled enough but he's not mentally ready to be a winner in the NBA.

It sucks for the Minnesota fanbase, I don't know how you acquire another great talent to the team other then getting really lucky in the draft.

1) Jimmy has a "Mirror, Mirror on the wall" complex and can't handle KAT being the franchise guy. Jimmy needs to be The Man. Hence the absurd chucking in crunch time and freezing KAT out. If you gave Jimmy the option of "Either A) Towns can hit the game winner and you'll win 100%, or B) You can shoot the big shot and the team will win only if you make it" he'd choose B every time, while telling you he'd chose A.

2) Thibs is a very stubborn person. At the very least Thibs needed to drag things out long enough that he couldn't be replaced.

I also think it's kind of strange that you're using the analogy of Donovan Mitchell playing with a hurt foot to criticize a guy that has never missed a game in support of General Soreness.

Has KAT missed even one game in his career? Wiggins I think had missed one or two before this season.

Towns has never missed a game; Wiggins had missed 1 in his entire career before this season while playing the most minutes in the league since he was drafted.

[KGdaBom]

1) Jimmy has a "Mirror, Mirror on the wall" complex and can't handle KAT being the franchise guy. Jimmy needs to be The Man. Hence the absurd chucking in crunch time and freezing KAT out. If you gave Jimmy the option of "Either A) Towns can hit the game winner and you'll win 100%, or B) You can shoot the big shot and the team will win only if you make it" he'd choose B every time, while telling you he'd chose A.

2) Thibs is a very stubborn person. At the very least Thibs needed to drag things out long enough that he couldn't be replaced.

I also think it's kind of strange that you're using the analogy of Donovan Mitchell playing with a hurt foot to criticize a guy that has never missed a game in support of General Soreness.

Has KAT missed even one game in his career? Wiggins I think had missed one or two before this season.

Towns has never missed a game; Wiggins had missed 1 in his entire career before this season while playing the most minutes in the league since he was drafted.

Thank you.

[derek360]

I guess I would like this trade more if the Wolves replaced their entire front office with competent people and especially a competent coach (maybe Brad Stevens? Throw him a bunch of money and an ownership stake? I know I am just dreaming but that is what forums are for...) Someone who can relate to the players or at least be on their level. Might as well get rid of Glen Taylor if that is possible.

[KGdaBom]

It seems to me that people have no clue how well Dario Saric has played through two seasons in the league. In 16-17 he was runner up for ROY and I think should have won it. Last year he averaged 15-7-3 rounded up LOL and shot .393 from 3 and 86% FTs. In the playoffs his first ever he averaged over 17 PPG over 7 rebounds 3.5 assists in 33 MPG. Those are amazing #s considering the usage rate of Embiid and Simmons. I hear his defense is a bit below average though. All accounts are he works hard at D, but is a bit athletically challenged.

[derek360]

27 is young. He should be good for 6 more years. That's young to me. Saric likely has around 10 good years left. Chances are if we tried for draft picks from other teams we never would have got a player as good as either RoCo or Saric. If we tanked for years sure sooner or later we would have with our own pick if that's the way you want to play it. I will never respect that.

Should be good for 6 more years. You really think Covington can sustain this production (2nd in combined steals and blocks) into his 30s? Highly unlikely. Wiggins should shoot more 3s (which he has, but 37% of his shots are still from 10ft to the 3 point line, as opposed to only 18% from 3, per basketball reference; these are his career numbers btw) and Wiggins should pass a lot more...Dude has only averaged 2 asts per game his whole career. Towns should learn how to defend. Some nights he just flails around like he has no idea what he is doing. ESPN SportScience measured the defendable area Towns could cover because of his size and length and it is around ~130 square ft (you can youtube this if you don't believe me), which is a really big area...so he should be a beast defensively. He sometimes can't even defend the guy in front of him, regardless of size.

Saric likely has 10 good years left. It seems like he has benefited from great players around him (obviously Simmons and Embiid). Is he likely to have 10 good years left with the Wolves (or any other team for that matter)? Maybe. His offensive game is clearly better than his defensive game, and with how Thibs uses his starters, if Saric doesn't play the D Thibs is looking for, that will not end well for Saric. Saric's defensive numbers are not good and watching him on tape doesn't really excite me either defensively...So while Saric is likely to be the starter (I hope), is he likely to be better than the potential draft picks the next three years, on this team? Who knows...

What Wiggins or Towns should or shouldn't do has nothing to do with what is likely for Covington. As for us getting Draft picks that may or may not be better than Saric or Covington I was talking about picks acquired by trading Butler. Not picks that we may acquire by tanking.

I just overreacted to the "should" and "likely" in your comment...With the current system the way it is, I don't think Covington can sustain his current production especially on a team that plays little to no team defense on a consistent basis. Covington is by far the Wolves best defender now and his presence might not raise the play of WIggins or Towns (You would expect it to but if Butler couldn't do it...)

What Wiggins and Towns should have a huge impact on what Covington does. If Wiggins and Towns actually play to their potential and that contract (I know that is unrealistic, but at least raise their level of play significantly from what it is now and do it consistently), that should make Covington into an even better player. Same with Saric.

[KGdaBom]

Should be good for 6 more years. You really think Covington can sustain this production (2nd in combined steals and blocks) into his 30s? Highly unlikely. Wiggins should shoot more 3s (which he has, but 37% of his shots are still from 10ft to the 3 point line, as opposed to only 18% from 3, per basketball reference; these are his career numbers btw) and Wiggins should pass a lot more...Dude has only averaged 2 asts per game his whole career. Towns should learn how to defend. Some nights he just flails around like he has no idea what he is doing. ESPN SportScience measured the defendable area Towns could cover because of his size and length and it is around ~130 square ft (you can youtube this if you don't believe me), which is a really big area...so he should be a beast defensively. He sometimes can't even defend the guy in front of him, regardless of size.

Saric likely has 10 good years left. It seems like he has benefited from great players around him (obviously Simmons and Embiid). Is he likely to have 10 good years left with the Wolves (or any other team for that matter)? Maybe. His offensive game is clearly better than his defensive game, and with how Thibs uses his starters, if Saric doesn't play the D Thibs is looking for, that will not end well for Saric. Saric's defensive numbers are not good and watching him on tape doesn't really excite me either defensively...So while Saric is likely to be the starter (I hope), is he likely to be better than the potential draft picks the next three years, on this team? Who knows...

What Wiggins or Towns should or shouldn't do has nothing to do with what is likely for Covington. As for us getting Draft picks that may or may not be better than Saric or Covington I was talking about picks acquired by trading Butler. Not picks that we may acquire by tanking.

I just overreacted to the "should" and "likely" in your comment...With the current system the way it is, I don't think Covington can sustain his current production especially on a team that plays little to no team defense on a consistent basis. Covington is by far the Wolves best defender now and his presence might not raise the play of WIggins or Towns (You would expect it to but if Butler couldn't do it...)

What Wiggins and Towns should have a huge impact on what Covington does. If Wiggins and Towns actually play to their potential and that contract (I know that is unrealistic, but at least raise their level of play significantly from what it is now and do it consistently), that should make Covington into an even better player. Same with Saric.

Fair enough, but these people who want to go into full tank mode on the chance we get a draft pick that turns out good sickens me. We got two players who are quite good and should be good for a long time to come.

[Worm Guts]

I wouldn’t use the term tank, but I would preferred the draft picks. We’re not making the playoffs this season and I would have liked having the picks as assets, either to rebuild or trade for a difference maker.

[engelmartin]

Bucks fan here. Congrats on finally getting rid of the Levean Bell of the NBA. Luckily for you guys, Philly was desperate because Ben Simmons is super disappointing this year. I think Saric and Covington is a coup for the Mirror Mirror PreMadonna, they're both great complimentary pieces to KAT. Good luck the rest of the season my Midwestern brothers.

[CP1981]

The Ringer has a good article about this trade. You guys should check it out once you get time

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/11/11/18084790/timberwolves-jimmy-butler-trade-saric-covington

[KGdaBom]

Bucks fan here. Congrats on finally getting rid of the Levean Bell of the NBA. Luckily for you guys, Philly was desperate because Ben Simmons is super disappointing this year. I think Saric and Covington is a coup for the Mirror Mirror PreMadonna, they're both great complimentary pieces to KAT. Good luck the rest of the season my Midwestern brothers.

Thank you kindly. Because of the Freak and Middleton the Bucks are one of my favorite teams to watch.

[derek360]

It seems to me that people have no clue how well Dario Saric has played through two seasons in the league. In 16-17 he was runner up for ROY and I think should have won it. Last year he averaged 15-7-3 rounded up LOL and shot .393 from 3 and 86% FTs. In the playoffs his first ever he averaged over 17 PPG over 7 rebounds 3.5 assists in 33 MPG. Those are amazing #s considering the usage rate of Embiid and Simmons. I hear his defense is a bit below average though. All accounts are he works hard at D, but is a bit athletically challenged.

You could also argue Embiid should've won ROY even though he only played 31 games. I agree Saric is not getting enough credit for his skill set. However, I think those numbers (regular season and post-season) are more of a result of Simmons, Embiid and company giving him those opportunities and him not creating by himself. Per NBA.com advanced stats, 100% of Saric's 3s last year and this year (so far) were/are as a result of a pass made to him (percent of 3 point field goals made assisted) (Please tell me if I interpreted this stat incorrectly). That tells me he had players know where he was at all times and (probably Simmons most of the time) passed him the ball. Since the Wolves are currently in the bottom 3rd in the league in assists (22nd, last year wasn't much better), I don't think the Wolves have players who are smart enough (especially Wiggins...) to get it to Saric enough for him to fire away. Saric has averaged 7 rebounds a game but for his 6 10 height, he should get more than that (Wolves are also currently bottom 10 in rebounding, and have been the past 3 seasons). He is soft on defense and gets pushed around in the paint (even by smaller guys). Imagining Towns and Saric flailing around in the paint trying to affect shots...It doesn't look good...

[derek360]

I wouldn’t use the term tank, but I would preferred the draft picks. We’re not making the playoffs this season and I would have liked having the picks as assets, either to rebuild or trade for a difference maker.

I can't agree more. If Wolves had gotten a 1st rounder (or taken the Rockets offer), Wolves could've turned around and made a deal to move up in next year's draft or like you said trade for an established player who actually wants to play for the franchise!

[KGdaBom]

I wouldn’t use the term tank, but I would preferred the draft picks. We’re not making the playoffs this season and I would have liked having the picks as assets, either to rebuild or trade for a difference maker.

I can't agree more. If Wolves had gotten a 1st rounder (or taken the Rockets offer), Wolves could've turned around and made a deal to move up in next year's draft or like you said trade for an established player who actually wants to play for the franchise!

The Wolves got TWO established players. Also if you trade for a player how does that indicate he wants to play for the franchise?

[KGdaBom]

It seems to me that people have no clue how well Dario Saric has played through two seasons in the league. In 16-17 he was runner up for ROY and I think should have won it. Last year he averaged 15-7-3 rounded up LOL and shot .393 from 3 and 86% FTs. In the playoffs his first ever he averaged over 17 PPG over 7 rebounds 3.5 assists in 33 MPG. Those are amazing #s considering the usage rate of Embiid and Simmons. I hear his defense is a bit below average though. All accounts are he works hard at D, but is a bit athletically challenged.

You could also argue Embiid should've won ROY even though he only played 31 games. I agree Saric is not getting enough credit for his skill set. However, I think those numbers (regular season and post-season) are more of a result of Simmons, Embiid and company giving him those opportunities and him not creating by himself. Per NBA.com advanced stats, 100% of Saric's 3s last year and this year (so far) were/are as a result of a pass made to him (percent of 3 point field goals made assisted) (Please tell me if I interpreted this stat incorrectly). That tells me he had players know where he was at all times and (probably Simmons most of the time) passed him the ball. Since the Wolves are currently in the bottom 3rd in the league in assists (22nd, last year wasn't much better), I don't think the Wolves have players who are smart enough (especially Wiggins...) to get it to Saric enough for him to fire away. Saric has averaged 7 rebounds a game but for his 6 10 height, he should get more than that (Wolves are also currently bottom 10 in rebounding, and have been the past 3 seasons). He is soft on defense and gets pushed around in the paint (even by smaller guys). Imagining Towns and Saric flailing around in the paint trying to affect shots...It doesn't look good...

Brogdon is the worst ROY winner maybe ever LOL. It's hard to give the ROY to a guy who played less than half the games despite him obviously being the best talent. Saric didn't get it because he was a non traditional rookie.

To be honest before the trade I only liked Saric because of his excellent fantasy basketball #s. Top 50. However, now that we will have him I like his skill set very well. He is good to very good at every facet of offense. Shooting, posting up, driving, backing down, ball handling and passing. On Minnesota I am confident he will get much better use as a ball handler and passer than he did in Philthy. You really like that word flailing I see. It's just starting, but I believe KAT is actually coming around on D. If he does that will be one quite good thing that came about from this whole fiasco or maybe it would have happened anyway. I don't know.