Butler has requested a trade (Part II)

[PharmD]

AirP I'm mostly with you, but you are barking up the wrong tree with Rubio. Do the math on his poor shooting and it comes down to about 2 points a game vs the average. He far more than makes up for that with his passing, rebounding and defense. People try to say that Rubio's poor shooting diminishes the effectiveness of all the other players going 4-5. That is debunked by all the other players having far better efficiency with Rubio on the court. Rubio was part of the solution not part of the problem. With the Rubio/Teague swap we did get the pick that ended up being Okogie, but we lost 4 million in cap space which last year would have been CJ Miles. Okogie will in the end be the determining factor of the Rubio trade. Early indications are positive on that.

Far better efficiency with Rubio on the court is not true. Towns was more efficient this year then previous years. Wiggins is really the only one who was "far more efficient" with Rubio because of how bad he was this last year. The team overall last year, even with Wiggins being worse, was "way more efficient" then with Rubio.

Just looking at team stats, Minnesota had a TS% of 56.6, eFG% 52.3 last year the year before with Rubio
2017-2018 TS% 56.6, eFG% 52.3 <- 9th for TS%, 13th for eFG%
2016-2017 TS% 55.5, eFG% 51.1 <- 15th for TS%, 16th for eFG%

Now take in account that Wiggins and Crawford were just absolutely horrible with efficiency, everyone else was either a wash or better, if you take out Wiggins horrible shooting, you're be in the top 4 in the league(around 58% TS%) and really close to being as efficient as GS and Houston. I do understand Rubio missed LaVine 12 more games then Teague missed Butler although Butler was a more efficient shooter.

Just a couple of tweaks and this team would be much better offensively.

[AirP.]

And? I didn't say he hurt their TS%/eFG%, but outside of the players who didn't have much experience in the NBA, the rest were pretty even.

I like Rubio but I also understand his strengths and weaknesses and what you can and can't do with him. Rubio without the ball in his hands is a problem for the other 4 players. Had Rubio showed any signs of life shooting from 3pt range he would not have been moved.

[minimus]

And? I didn't say he hurt their TS%/eFG%, but outside of the players who didn't have much experience in the NBA, the rest were pretty even.

I like Rubio but I also understand his strengths and weaknesses and what you can and can't do with him. Rubio without the ball in his hands is a problem for the other 4 players. Had Rubio showed any signs of life shooting from 3pt range he would not have been moved.

Before he was traded, Rubio showed an improved confidence in 3pt and leadership and ability to run offense and load both Wiggins and KAT and make them happy contributors. I even posted here stats from basketball-reference. Both KAT and Wiggins averaged very impressive numbers, they shot efficiently and overall delivered during that stint. You can check it from the game when LaVine went down to the Bjelica injury. They also played with someone named Brandon Rush as backup/starter wing and Dieng as starter PF, and Bjelica as backup stretch four.

[AirP.]

And? I didn't say he hurt their TS%/eFG%, but outside of the players who didn't have much experience in the NBA, the rest were pretty even.

I like Rubio but I also understand his strengths and weaknesses and what you can and can't do with him. Rubio without the ball in his hands is a problem for the other 4 players. Had Rubio showed any signs of life shooting from 3pt range he would not have been moved.

Before he was traded, Rubio showed an improved confidence in 3pt and leadership and ability to run offense and load both Wiggins and KAT and make them happy contributors. I even posted here stats from basketball-reference. Both KAT and Wiggins averaged very impressive numbers, they shot efficiently and overall delivered during that stint. You can check it from the game when LaVine went down to the Bjelica injury. They also played with someone named Brandon Rush as backup/starter wing and Dieng as starter PF, and Bjelica as backup stretch four.

Looking at just the offense, per 100 possessions(taking pace out of it)
Minnesota
2017-2018 - 113.4 (4th) Houston was #1 at 114.7(only 1.3 better than Minnesota)
2016-2017 - 110.8 (10th)

Utah
2017-2018 - 108.4 (16th)
2016-2017 - 109.6 (12th)

[KGdaBom]

AirP I'm mostly with you, but you are barking up the wrong tree with Rubio. Do the math on his poor shooting and it comes down to about 2 points a game vs the average. He far more than makes up for that with his passing, rebounding and defense. People try to say that Rubio's poor shooting diminishes the effectiveness of all the other players going 4-5. That is debunked by all the other players having far better efficiency with Rubio on the court. Rubio was part of the solution not part of the problem. With the Rubio/Teague swap we did get the pick that ended up being Okogie, but we lost 4 million in cap space which last year would have been CJ Miles. Okogie will in the end be the determining factor of the Rubio trade. Early indications are positive on that.

Far better efficiency with Rubio on the court is not true. Towns was more efficient this year then previous years. Wiggins is really the only one who was "far more efficient" with Rubio because of how bad he was this last year. The team overall last year, even with Wiggins being worse, was "way more efficient" then with Rubio.

Just looking at team stats, Minnesota had a TS% of 56.6, eFG% 52.3 last year the year before with Rubio
2017-2018 TS% 56.6, eFG% 52.3 <- 9th for TS%, 13th for eFG%
2016-2017 TS% 55.5, eFG% 51.1 <- 15th for TS%, 16th for eFG%

Now take in account that Wiggins and Crawford were just absolutely horrible with efficiency, everyone else was either a wash or better, if you take out Wiggins horrible shooting, you're be in the top 4 in the league(around 58% TS%) and really close to being as efficient as GS and Houston. I do understand Rubio missed LaVine 12 more games then Teague missed Butler although Butler was a more efficient shooter.

Just a couple of tweaks and this team would be much better offensively(well, when Butler was with them).

When Rubio was on the team all the players were far more efficient when he was on the court than when he wasn't on the court. You are comparing apples to oranges. A different team.

[KGdaBom]

I don't think that was a one way street, I think both had their it's me or him moments. I know the trade rumors were not from strong sources but I do think that Butler asked out first & Thibs considered moving Kat to appease Butler. I think Taylor nixed Thibs on trading Kat as he prevented him from trading Wiggins before handing out his long extension, it doesn't surprise me that in this situation Thibs still wants to keep Butler & Taylor went over his head to extend Kat & requested a trade for Butler done as quick as possible...

It matches in a way, what played out with Wiggins.

KAT would most likely command the biggest trade package of all time, but I don't think Thibs was ever considering trading him. Giving KAT a Supermax extension was a no brainer. That was IMO one of the few times that Thibs and Taylor were on the same page.

I won't be able to respond after this.

Kat for Ayton rumor made alot of sense for both teams involved, him being a former team-mate of Booker & Ayton being a talented young, cheap big coming back to replace/reset Kat.

I don't know if true but it's something if I were in this position would definitely contemplate. I'd have Butler & Ayton, instead of Kat maxed & Butler wanting to walk for cents on the dollar.

It is my belief, and I hope I'm correct, that Ayton compared to KAT is a joke. Wolves would have needed Booker, along with Ayton, and another first round pick or two before even considering trading KAT to Phoenix.

[minimus]

And? I didn't say he hurt their TS%/eFG%, but outside of the players who didn't have much experience in the NBA, the rest were pretty even.

I like Rubio but I also understand his strengths and weaknesses and what you can and can't do with him. Rubio without the ball in his hands is a problem for the other 4 players. Had Rubio showed any signs of life shooting from 3pt range he would not have been moved.

Before he was traded, Rubio showed an improved confidence in 3pt and leadership and ability to run offense and load both Wiggins and KAT and make them happy contributors. I even posted here stats from basketball-reference. Both KAT and Wiggins averaged very impressive numbers, they shot efficiently and overall delivered during that stint. You can check it from the game when LaVine went down to the Bjelica injury. They also played with someone named Brandon Rush as backup/starter wing and Dieng as starter PF, and Bjelica as backup stretch four.

Looking at just the offense, per 100 possessions(taking pace out of it)
Minnesota
2017-2018 - 113.4 (4th) Houston was #1 at 114.7(only 1.3 better than Minnesota)
2016-2017 - 110.8 (10th)

Utah
2017-2018 - 108.4 (16th)
2016-2017 - 109.6 (12th)

Don't forget that there was a stint when Thibs tried to make a point forward out of Wiggins. The worst possible situation for Rubio. In Utah Rubio is 3rd ballhandler but it makes their offensive flow so much smother

[Alwaysrightguy]

The other thing that sucked about trading Rubio was it made it basically impossible to trade for Irving since Teague couldn't be traded until Dec. 15th. There was just no way to make the salaries work. Not that we would have been able to match Boston's package anyway but still.

Plus Teague is clearly worse than Rubio and cost $5M more cap space in the year where cap space was at its most valuable in franchise history.

You Rubio bobo's just let it go. Classic case of addition by subtraction. Teague is light years ahead of him

Sent from my SM-G930V using RealGM mobile app

[Slim Tubby]

At some point, I’m guessing that Thibs and Taylor are going to need to sit down with Jimmy and his agent to have a meeting of the minds. Jimmy needs to be told that he’s too valuable to the team and that the organization is not going to trade him away for marginal players and bad contracts.

He can step up, be a man and try to lead this team to an even better finish this season and at the end of the season, he can take advantage of the extra $50M and re-sign with MIN or feel free to sign elsewhere for a significant amount less (but still huge money). It wouldn’t be ideal for the team if Jimmy does walk because his $20M cap hit would just be absorbed by KAT’s extension and doesn’t free up any cap space to sign FA’s.

Of course, if KGdaBom’s theory that KAT gave the team an ultimatum of “Jimmy or me”, then my thoughts are worthless. I have such a hard time believing he did this unless the rumors about Jimmy shagging his girlfriend are true but his theory certainly could be accurate.

[jscott]

At some point, I’m guessing that Thibs and Taylor are going to need to sit down with Jimmy and his agent to have a meeting of the minds. Jimmy needs to be told that he’s too valuable to the team and that the organization is not going to trade him away for marginal players and bad contracts.

He can step up, be a man and try to lead this team to an even better finish this season and at the end of the season, he can take advantage of the extra $50M and re-sign with MIN or feel free to sign elsewhere for a significant amount less (but still huge money). It wouldn’t be ideal for the team if Jimmy does walk because his $20M cap hit would just be absorbed by KAT’s extension and doesn’t free up any cap space to sign FA’s.

Of course, if KGdaBom’s theory that KAT gave the team an ultimatum of “Jimmy or me”, then my thoughts are worthless. I have such a hard time believing he did this unless the rumors about Jimmy shagging his girlfriend are true but his theory certainly could be accurate.

KAT said on his IG that those rumors were garbage.

[Slim Tubby]

At some point, I’m guessing that Thibs and Taylor are going to need to sit down with Jimmy and his agent to have a meeting of the minds. Jimmy needs to be told that he’s too valuable to the team and that the organization is not going to trade him away for marginal players and bad contracts.

He can step up, be a man and try to lead this team to an even better finish this season and at the end of the season, he can take advantage of the extra $50M and re-sign with MIN or feel free to sign elsewhere for a significant amount less (but still huge money). It wouldn’t be ideal for the team if Jimmy does walk because his $20M cap hit would just be absorbed by KAT’s extension and doesn’t free up any cap space to sign FA’s.

Of course, if KGdaBom’s theory that KAT gave the team an ultimatum of “Jimmy or me”, then my thoughts are worthless. I have such a hard time believing he did this unless the rumors about Jimmy shagging his girlfriend are true but his theory certainly could be accurate.

KAT said on his IG that those rumors were garbage.

If KAT said those rumors weren't true, what other possible reason could there be for him to give the rumored ultimatum? KAT seems like such a likeable guy. Any thoughts, KGdaBom?

[Slim Tubby]

Also, the team should tell Jimmy's agent that he has permission to speak with other teams about trading for him. They can see first hand how garbage the offers are and also let any team interested in trading for Jimmy know that he would re-sign with them for the Max which should improve his trade value and hopefully improve the offers. (Forgive me if this scenario has already played out...I just haven't seen anything that would indicate Taylor & Thibs have granted this type of permission)

[jscott]

At some point, I’m guessing that Thibs and Taylor are going to need to sit down with Jimmy and his agent to have a meeting of the minds. Jimmy needs to be told that he’s too valuable to the team and that the organization is not going to trade him away for marginal players and bad contracts.

He can step up, be a man and try to lead this team to an even better finish this season and at the end of the season, he can take advantage of the extra $50M and re-sign with MIN or feel free to sign elsewhere for a significant amount less (but still huge money). It wouldn’t be ideal for the team if Jimmy does walk because his $20M cap hit would just be absorbed by KAT’s extension and doesn’t free up any cap space to sign FA’s.

Of course, if KGdaBom’s theory that KAT gave the team an ultimatum of “Jimmy or me”, then my thoughts are worthless. I have such a hard time believing he did this unless the rumors about Jimmy shagging his girlfriend are true but his theory certainly could be accurate.

KAT said on his IG that those rumors were garbage.

If KAT said those rumors weren't true, what other possible reason could there be for him to give the rumored ultimatum? KAT seems like such a likeable guy. Any thoughts, KGdaBom?

Maybe they just didn’t get along.

I’ve worked with a lot of people. Some of who I didn’t like very much and didn’t want to work with (let alone travel with for the next 5 years).

I could see how Jimmy’s personality might rub someone the wrong way but I have no inside knowledge of that.

[KGdaBom]

At some point, I’m guessing that Thibs and Taylor are going to need to sit down with Jimmy and his agent to have a meeting of the minds. Jimmy needs to be told that he’s too valuable to the team and that the organization is not going to trade him away for marginal players and bad contracts.

He can step up, be a man and try to lead this team to an even better finish this season and at the end of the season, he can take advantage of the extra $50M and re-sign with MIN or feel free to sign elsewhere for a significant amount less (but still huge money). It wouldn’t be ideal for the team if Jimmy does walk because his $20M cap hit would just be absorbed by KAT’s extension and doesn’t free up any cap space to sign FA’s.

Of course, if KGdaBom’s theory that KAT gave the team an ultimatum of “Jimmy or me”, then my thoughts are worthless. I have such a hard time believing he did this unless the rumors about Jimmy shagging his girlfriend are true but his theory certainly could be accurate.

The ultimatum wasn't a theory of mine. It was widely reported. However last night I posted a YouTube where KAT said he was good with Jimmy.

[minimus]

The other thing that sucked about trading Rubio was it made it basically impossible to trade for Irving since Teague couldn't be traded until Dec. 15th. There was just no way to make the salaries work. Not that we would have been able to match Boston's package anyway but still.

Plus Teague is clearly worse than Rubio and cost $5M more cap space in the year where cap space was at its most valuable in franchise history.

You Rubio bobo's just let it go. Classic case of addition by subtraction. Teague is light years ahead of him

In backward direction.

[Calinks]

I dont want to make big assumptions because at this point I don't know what is true and what isn't. I do know that Taylor is not a great owner, with that said, at the very least he has kept the team in Minnesota and has tried to make this franchise relevant, he just has not been very good at it. Thibs I have questions about from multiple angles, I think he is stuck in old ways and I think he has issues generating good chemistry amongst his team. Towns Butler beef, who knows what is going on with that. I don't totally buy that Towns was demanding Butler be moved. The only thing I do know is that Butler wants out, my impression is he just wants out of Minnesota, don't know how much of that is money, teammates, or location. Either way he wants no part of this.

The only thing I can say with confidence is that we are not a first rate organization and the we haven't had the impression of being one ever. I think we were trending up during Flips last run here, we got the new facilities we looked like we were building things the right way. That also spiked once we got Butler and on paper had an identity in place. Once again though, it has all blown up in our faces and we look like a bush league franchise who has no idea what they are doing.

I do think it starts at the top, excellence is felt throughout the entire organization. Its something we really have to work hard towards but we keep failing to achieve. Maybe we never will.

[Nick K]

lol @ 'Glen didn't let Thibs make HIS moves!'. We have more 11-12 Bulls on our roster than 16-17 Timberwolves. Thibs was able to mortgage the farm for Butler, trade Glen's favorite player, pay double market value for Taj, etc

We didn't mortgage squat for Butler. LaVine, Dunn and a draft pick swap that except for Patton's injuries might have worked out just fine. Taylor didn't let Thibs trade Wiggins and gave him a max contract instead. How bad has that screwed the Wolves? Getting the ex bulls has worked out very well. Butler is the best player on the team currently, Gibson played amazing for us, Rose and Deng are looking very good for vet minimum guys costing us almost nothing. In two seasons of Thibs one of Butler we were back in the playoffs. Sure those two are the problem . They are the scapegoats for Glen Taylor and his horrible decisions. Glen never put Forman and Paxton under the bus and he isn't putting Taylor under the bus either.

Didn't mortgage squat for Butler?? You can't be serious. That's a ridiculous comment.

We gave up 3, count them 3, lottery picks. That represented 150+ losses. 3 long years of losing. 3 seperate drafts that we argued about for months with our hopes held high for a new future. That was all gone in a flash on draft night 2017.

If Jimmy were staying here with a cap friendly deal that's one thing. But for him to bolt after 1 year and put us in a position to give up 3 lottery picks, and all the losing anguish in getting them, for the kind of crap we're talking about getting back in return is nothing short of a disaster.

I don't think anybody here is confident we'll get back anything close to value.

[Nick K]

I don't know what to think about this whole situation.
I don't even want to talk about it anymore.
It just proved once again something that we all know for years.
This whole franchise is mismanaged top to bottom.

Even when the Wolves manage to put themselves in a good position by acquiring generational talents like Garnett and Towns. They miserably fail to put supporting casts around them good enough to compete. And once they accidentially manage to put a good supporting cast around them, they will find a way to screw things up.

No truer words said.

[Nick K]

AirP I'm mostly with you, but you are barking up the wrong tree with Rubio. Do the math on his poor shooting and it comes down to about 2 points a game vs the average. He far more than makes up for that with his passing, rebounding and defense. People try to say that Rubio's poor shooting diminishes the effectiveness of all the other players going 4-5. That is debunked by all the other players having far better efficiency with Rubio on the court. Rubio was part of the solution not part of the problem. With the Rubio/Teague swap we did get the pick that ended up being Okogie, but we lost 4 million in cap space which last year would have been CJ Miles. Okogie will in the end be the determining factor of the Rubio trade. Early indications are positive on that.

Far better efficiency with Rubio on the court is not true. Towns was more efficient this year then previous years. Wiggins is really the only one who was "far more efficient" with Rubio because of how bad he was this last year. The team overall last year, even with Wiggins being worse, was "way more efficient" then with Rubio.

Just looking at team stats, Minnesota had a TS% of 56.6, eFG% 52.3 last year the year before with Rubio
2017-2018 TS% 56.6, eFG% 52.3 <- 9th for TS%, 13th for eFG%
2016-2017 TS% 55.5, eFG% 51.1 <- 15th for TS%, 16th for eFG%

Now take in account that Wiggins and Crawford were just absolutely horrible with efficiency, everyone else was either a wash or better, if you take out Wiggins horrible shooting, you're be in the top 4 in the league(around 58% TS%) and really close to being as efficient as GS and Houston. I do understand Rubio missed LaVine 12 more games then Teague missed Butler although Butler was a more efficient shooter.

Just a couple of tweaks and this team would be much better offensively.

When you quoted Jimmy...

"If Wigs is open I’m gonna throw him the ball, if KAT’s open I’m gonna throw him the ball, if Taj open I’m gonna try to look him off, throw it to KAT or Wigs."
- Jimmy Butler

Sounds good but not true. If you look at the numbers, Butler rarely assisted Towns. In fact he had 3rd or 4th, close with Wiggins, worst usage late in games. Of course Teague and Butler had the highest usage numbers late in games.

[truth18]

Yo, I just want to say that I feel awful for your org. I've always enjoyed watching the Wolves throughout the years and hope that you can recover swiftly from this bs.