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Jimmy Butler Traded to Philadelphia (Discussion Continued)

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Who won the deal?

Minnesota by a large margin.
8
4%
Minnesota by a small margin.
25
14%
Good for both teams
81
45%
Philadelphia by a small margin.
30
17%
Philadelphia by a large margin.
35
20%
 
Total votes: 179

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Re: Jimmy Butler Traded to Philadelphia (Discussion Continued) 

Post#501 » by derek360 » Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:38 pm

KGdaBom wrote:
derek360 wrote:
KGdaBom wrote:It seems to me that people have no clue how well Dario Saric has played through two seasons in the league. In 16-17 he was runner up for ROY and I think should have won it. Last year he averaged 15-7-3 rounded up LOL and shot .393 from 3 and 86% FTs. In the playoffs his first ever he averaged over 17 PPG over 7 rebounds 3.5 assists in 33 MPG. Those are amazing #s considering the usage rate of Embiid and Simmons. I hear his defense is a bit below average though. All accounts are he works hard at D, but is a bit athletically challenged.




You could also argue Embiid should've won ROY even though he only played 31 games. I agree Saric is not getting enough credit for his skill set. However, I think those numbers (regular season and post-season) are more of a result of Simmons, Embiid and company giving him those opportunities and him not creating by himself. Per NBA.com advanced stats, 100% of Saric's 3s last year and this year (so far) were/are as a result of a pass made to him (percent of 3 point field goals made assisted) (Please tell me if I interpreted this stat incorrectly). That tells me he had players know where he was at all times and (probably Simmons most of the time) passed him the ball. Since the Wolves are currently in the bottom 3rd in the league in assists (22nd, last year wasn't much better), I don't think the Wolves have players who are smart enough (especially Wiggins...) to get it to Saric enough for him to fire away. Saric has averaged 7 rebounds a game but for his 6 10 height, he should get more than that (Wolves are also currently bottom 10 in rebounding, and have been the past 3 seasons). He is soft on defense and gets pushed around in the paint (even by smaller guys). Imagining Towns and Saric flailing around in the paint trying to affect shots...It doesn't look good...

Brogdon is the worst ROY winner maybe ever LOL. It's hard to give the ROY to a guy who played less than half the games despite him obviously being the best talent. Saric didn't get it because he was a non traditional rookie.

To be honest before the trade I only liked Saric because of his excellent fantasy basketball #s. Top 50. However, now that we will have him I like his skill set very well. He is good to very good at every facet of offense. Shooting, posting up, driving, backing down, ball handling and passing. On Minnesota I am confident he will get much better use as a ball handler and passer than he did in Philthy. You really like that word flailing I see. It's just starting, but I believe KAT is actually coming around on D. If he does that will be one quite good thing that came about from this whole fiasco or maybe it would have happened anyway. I don't know.



It's funny you say that because Saric was on my fantasy basketball team last year. I dropped him when he had a short downswing. Big mistake. I wouldn't say he is good at passing considering he has only averaged two assists per game. Maybe that increases but I doubt it with how most of the Wolves shoot. I hope you're right that Saric will be a better player but his skill set might be unlocked even more with a better coach.

WIth Towns, I can't find a better word than flailing, to be honest. I say that because it seems Towns is just jumping without a clear purpose as to how to affect the shot, let alone block it. He is usually a step too slow. I expected him to make a quantum leap defensively in year 2 but it just didn't happen. Every time Towns has a good game defensively he usually follows it up with a clunker (if not multiple clunkers). I remember when Towns guarded Steph Curry one-on-one and I was so scared Curry would just cook him, but Towns forced him to take a bad fadeaway. It was moments like those that gave me hope. Now watching Towns...Missed rotation, too slow, lost his man, the list goes on...And Coach Thibs was supposed to help? :banghead:
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Re: Jimmy Butler Traded to Philadelphia (Discussion Continued) 

Post#502 » by AirP. » Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:54 pm

PharmD wrote:1) Jimmy has a "Mirror, Mirror on the wall" complex and can't handle KAT being the franchise guy. Jimmy needs to be The Man. Hence the absurd chucking in crunch time and freezing KAT out. If you gave Jimmy the option of "Either A) Towns can hit the game winner and you'll win 100%, or B) You can shoot the big shot and the team will win only if you make it" he'd choose B every time, while telling you he'd chose A.

2) Thibs is a very stubborn person. At the very least Thibs needed to drag things out long enough that he couldn't be replaced.

I also think it's kind of strange that you're using the analogy of Donovan Mitchell playing with a hurt foot to criticize a guy that has never missed a game in support of General Soreness.


1. Not sure about that since he came to Minnesota willing to be basically the 3rd wheel and took a back seat in scoring for weeks at the beginning. His first 2 months in Minnesota(Oct/Nov) he averaged only 17.5 points and didn't seemed bothered about it, but that changed early on in the season for some reason which may have had something to do with him also no longer wanting to be on this team long term. My guess is he didn't see the competitiveness he expected to see and with that went back to his old ways of trying to carry teams(which he did the 2 previous seasons, especially in the clutch).

2. I guess you could say stubborn although I think sometimes you have to give things time instead of making quick changes because things don't work early on, if they were doing things properly and still doing bad that's easy to say it didn't work, but if they're not executing like they should be, maybe you give that time continue to work on it in practice to see if they can execute properly then make a decision.
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Re: Jimmy Butler Traded to Philadelphia (Discussion Continued) 

Post#503 » by KGdaBom » Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:00 pm

derek360 wrote:
KGdaBom wrote:
derek360 wrote:


You could also argue Embiid should've won ROY even though he only played 31 games. I agree Saric is not getting enough credit for his skill set. However, I think those numbers (regular season and post-season) are more of a result of Simmons, Embiid and company giving him those opportunities and him not creating by himself. Per NBA.com advanced stats, 100% of Saric's 3s last year and this year (so far) were/are as a result of a pass made to him (percent of 3 point field goals made assisted) (Please tell me if I interpreted this stat incorrectly). That tells me he had players know where he was at all times and (probably Simmons most of the time) passed him the ball. Since the Wolves are currently in the bottom 3rd in the league in assists (22nd, last year wasn't much better), I don't think the Wolves have players who are smart enough (especially Wiggins...) to get it to Saric enough for him to fire away. Saric has averaged 7 rebounds a game but for his 6 10 height, he should get more than that (Wolves are also currently bottom 10 in rebounding, and have been the past 3 seasons). He is soft on defense and gets pushed around in the paint (even by smaller guys). Imagining Towns and Saric flailing around in the paint trying to affect shots...It doesn't look good...

Brogdon is the worst ROY winner maybe ever LOL. It's hard to give the ROY to a guy who played less than half the games despite him obviously being the best talent. Saric didn't get it because he was a non traditional rookie.

To be honest before the trade I only liked Saric because of his excellent fantasy basketball #s. Top 50. However, now that we will have him I like his skill set very well. He is good to very good at every facet of offense. Shooting, posting up, driving, backing down, ball handling and passing. On Minnesota I am confident he will get much better use as a ball handler and passer than he did in Philthy. You really like that word flailing I see. It's just starting, but I believe KAT is actually coming around on D. If he does that will be one quite good thing that came about from this whole fiasco or maybe it would have happened anyway. I don't know.



It's funny you say that because Saric was on my fantasy basketball team last year. I dropped him when he had a short downswing. Big mistake. I wouldn't say he is good at passing considering he has only averaged two assists per game. Maybe that increases but I doubt it with how most of the Wolves shoot. I hope you're right that Saric will be a better player but his skill set might be unlocked even more with a better coach.

WIth Towns, I can't find a better word than flailing, to be honest. I say that because it seems Towns is just jumping without a clear purpose as to how to affect the shot, let alone block it. He is usually a step too slow. I expected him to make a quantum leap defensively in year 2 but it just didn't happen. Every time Towns has a good game defensively he usually follows it up with a clunker (if not multiple clunkers). I remember when Towns guarded Steph Curry one-on-one and I was so scared Curry would just cook him, but Towns forced him to take a bad fadeaway. It was moments like those that gave me hope. Now watching Towns...Missed rotation, too slow, lost his man, the list goes on...And Coach Thibs was supposed to help? :banghead:

Towns still has his WTF moments on D, but I'm seeing far more effort and good D out of him than ever before. I am hopeful on that.
I've watched a lot of Saric highlights particularly regarding his passing skills. I know highlights give a skewed perspective so I try to filter out for that. Saric makes passes that you just can't make unless you are a good passer. They just didn't give him that option much in Philthy.
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Re: Jimmy Butler Traded to Philadelphia (Discussion Continued) 

Post#504 » by Klomp » Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:05 pm

Trade is now officially official

Read on Twitter
tsherkin wrote:The important thing to take away here is that Klomp is wrong.
Esohny wrote:Why are you asking Klomp? "He's" actually a bot that posts random blurbs from a database.
Klomp wrote:I'm putting the tired in retired mod at the moment
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Re: Jimmy Butler Traded to Philadelphia (Discussion Continued) 

Post#505 » by Klomp » Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:06 pm

Yuck

Read on Twitter
tsherkin wrote:The important thing to take away here is that Klomp is wrong.
Esohny wrote:Why are you asking Klomp? "He's" actually a bot that posts random blurbs from a database.
Klomp wrote:I'm putting the tired in retired mod at the moment
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Re: Jimmy Butler Traded to Philadelphia (Discussion Continued) 

Post#506 » by Klomp » Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:12 pm

Read on Twitter
tsherkin wrote:The important thing to take away here is that Klomp is wrong.
Esohny wrote:Why are you asking Klomp? "He's" actually a bot that posts random blurbs from a database.
Klomp wrote:I'm putting the tired in retired mod at the moment
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Re: Jimmy Butler Traded to Philadelphia (Discussion Continued) 

Post#507 » by thinktank » Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:27 pm

SO_MONEY wrote:
thinktank wrote:Saric and Covington are players that can help you win playoff games (and they have). LaVine, Markkanen and Dunn are not.
They are not getting this team to the playoffs, so that is moot.


Maybe not this year.

The Bulls tho, they’ll never make it to the playoffs and thats playing in the weak East.
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Re: Jimmy Butler Traded to Philadelphia (Discussion Continued) 

Post#508 » by SO_MONEY » Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:34 pm

thinktank wrote:
SO_MONEY wrote:
thinktank wrote:Saric and Covington are players that can help you win playoff games (and they have). LaVine, Markkanen and Dunn are not.
They are not getting this team to the playoffs, so that is moot.


Maybe not this year.

The Bulls tho, they’ll never make it to the playoffs and thats playing in the weak East.
Maybe not any year. As for CHI I don't really care about their situation.

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Re: Jimmy Butler Traded to Philadelphia (Discussion Continued) 

Post#509 » by MN7725 » Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:49 pm

CP1981 wrote:The Ringer has a good article about this trade. You guys should check it out once you get time

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/11/11/18084790/timberwolves-jimmy-butler-trade-saric-covington


https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/9/27/17910312/karl-anthony-towns-tom-thibodeau-wolves

The trade actually results in lineups that Tjarks was advocating for in this article (basically a blueprint to maximize KAT) a couple months ago


I agree with him that the lineups with current roster should be Dieng out of the rotation with Taj as backup C with AT spacing floor.

The Wolves could go from one of the worst floor spacing teams in the NBA last season to one of the best.


Sick of seeing opposing "C"s playing free safety in the paint
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Re: Jimmy Butler Traded to Philadelphia (Discussion Continued) 

Post#510 » by D1SGRUNTL3D » Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:02 pm

Maefteda wrote:My "tribute" video on Jimmy Butler picked up some steam on r/NBA and on YouTube, so I figured I could post it here:

Enjoy

This is hilariously depressing. All of those bad teams we lost to. Mostly because jimmy went hero ball the final 4 minutes


Amazing at how many chances he missed in 1 season alone. Was it like 15?
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Re: Jimmy Butler Traded to Philadelphia (Discussion Continued) 

Post#511 » by Bucketgetter » Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:22 pm

Maefteda wrote:My "tribute" video on Jimmy Butler picked up some steam on r/NBA and on YouTube, so I figured I could post it here:

Enjoy


That game 1 shot...So f*cking stupid.
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Re: Jimmy Butler Traded to Philadelphia (Discussion Continued) 

Post#512 » by Sugarless » Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:32 pm

Maefteda wrote:My "tribute" video on Jimmy Butler picked up some steam on r/NBA and on YouTube, so I figured I could post it here:

Enjoy



That's brilliant. :lol:

Good job.
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Re: Jimmy Butler Traded to Philadelphia (Discussion Continued) 

Post#513 » by CP1981 » Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:40 pm

MN7725 wrote:
CP1981 wrote:The Ringer has a good article about this trade. You guys should check it out once you get time

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/11/11/18084790/timberwolves-jimmy-butler-trade-saric-covington


https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/9/27/17910312/karl-anthony-towns-tom-thibodeau-wolves

The trade actually results in lineups that Tjarks was advocating for in this article (basically a blueprint to maximize KAT) a couple months ago


I agree with him that the lineups with current roster should be Dieng out of the rotation with Taj as backup C with AT spacing floor.

The Wolves could go from one of the worst floor spacing teams in the NBA last season to one of the best.


Sick of seeing opposing "C"s playing free safety in the paint



Yea I said during the summer and in the preseason that I would make Taj a back up center and get a stretch 4 next to Kat.

It comes down to Thibs though. Will he make the changes?. The Wolves have 2 pg's who are good at driving and kicking. Start Saric at the 4, Covington at the 3 and Wiggs at the 2. The spacing would really give guys room to operate.
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Re: Jimmy Butler Traded to Philadelphia (Discussion Continued) 

Post#514 » by MN7725 » Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:57 pm

CP1981 wrote:
MN7725 wrote:
CP1981 wrote:The Ringer has a good article about this trade. You guys should check it out once you get time

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/11/11/18084790/timberwolves-jimmy-butler-trade-saric-covington


https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/9/27/17910312/karl-anthony-towns-tom-thibodeau-wolves

The trade actually results in lineups that Tjarks was advocating for in this article (basically a blueprint to maximize KAT) a couple months ago


I agree with him that the lineups with current roster should be Dieng out of the rotation with Taj as backup C with AT spacing floor.

The Wolves could go from one of the worst floor spacing teams in the NBA last season to one of the best.


Sick of seeing opposing "C"s playing free safety in the paint



Yea I said during the summer and in the preseason that I would make Taj a back up center and get a stretch 4 next to Kat.

It comes down to Thibs though. Will he make the changes?. The Wolves have 2 pg's who are good at driving and kicking. Start Saric at the 4, Covington at the 3 and Wiggs at the 2. The spacing would really give guys room to operate.


Teague would be the player who benefits the most

Dude is very good pick/roll/pop PG, but just very awkward player with Butler/Wig/Taj/KAT lineups. Taj's defender camps out in paint, Wig/Butler aren't exactly catch/shoot players. They catch the ball, jab step, take a dribble, then shoot it.

If Wig can keep up his 3pt shooting, heavy doses of Teague/KAT pick/roll/pop with Saric/Wig/RCov I think can be a top 5 offense again.

But I think
It’s unclear whether Thibs would be willing to make many changes to his philosophy on such short notice. He could just as easily keep Gibson as a starter and close games with two shot-happy guards in Teague and Rose.

this will happen

I think those two will close games which require one of them (probably Rose) to frequently cover a much bigger wing player. Rose's effort has been great, but like in the Dallas game for example, there isn't much he can do when he's covering a guy like Luka who can just shoot over the top
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Re: Jimmy Butler Traded to Philadelphia (Discussion Continued) 

Post#515 » by Macwolf527 » Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:59 pm

Butler was the wrong trade from the beginning! There, I said it. Thibs was the wrong coach from the beginning! There, I said that too. That’s the honest truth. Thibs is a veteran player type of coach. He not the type of coach to mode young players. Primarily because you must show tough love and be nurturing in the same breath when dealing with young players. I get the feeling that these players go elsewhere for that. KAT to KG, Wiggins to his brother, etc. What happens when what your mentors say does not line up with your coaches philosophy? Carlisle, Stevens, Rivers, Popovich....rarely do you hear their players feelings showing up in the media and if it does, the coach is on it right away before it blows up. Thibs shows obvious favoritism to his past players and that okay if your past players are the future. That’s not the case here and I think Thibs may have lost some trust with his max players.

Thibs knew Butler was a loose cannon and not capable of mentoring these young players, so instead of players getting a balance of tough love and nurture to develop, it’s just tough love from the two leaders of the team, coach and star player. A bad mix from the beginning.
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Re: Jimmy Butler Traded to Philadelphia (Discussion Continued) 

Post#516 » by Dan's with the Wolves » Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:37 pm

Sugarless wrote:
Maefteda wrote:My "tribute" video on Jimmy Butler picked up some steam on r/NBA and on YouTube, so I figured I could post it here:

Enjoy



That's brilliant. :lol:

Good job.

Did Butler ever make any end of games shots? I remember most of your lowlights and sadly I can’t remember any end of game Butler Highlights.
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Re: Jimmy Butler Traded to Philadelphia (Discussion Continued) 

Post#517 » by Murphs56 » Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:04 pm

PharmD wrote:
Murphs56 wrote:
KGdaBom wrote:I have critical fantasy basketball decisions to be made based on whether RoCo plays tomorrow or not. I wish there was an answer. Couldn't the physicals have been done already?


Even if they were, I find it hard to believe they'll play tomorrow without one practice under their belts. Tomorrow's game is going to be rough. Already down Teague, possibly down Wiggins. I expect some CJ Williams greatness for sure.


I can't imagine it takes too long to learn Thibs' system. "We just take turns calling for the ball. Whoever gets it, shoots it. Everyone else can just stand and watch. And defense, always over-rotate to the strong side. Force their shooters to hit wide open threes. If you get tired and need to come out of the game just stop being sawft."


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Re: Jimmy Butler Traded to Philadelphia (Discussion Continued) 

Post#518 » by KGdaBom » Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:19 pm

Klomp wrote:Yuck

Read on Twitter

I liked RoCo's #33. I know some of the Wolves #s, but don't recall who's wearing #33 if anybody is.
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Re: Jimmy Butler Traded to Philadelphia (Discussion Continued) 

Post#519 » by _AIJ_ » Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:32 pm

KGdaBom wrote:
Klomp wrote:Yuck

Read on Twitter

I liked RoCo's #33. I know some of the Wolves #s, but don't recall who's wearing #33 if anybody is.

Dante Cunningham?


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Re: Jimmy Butler Traded to Philadelphia (Discussion Continued) 

Post#520 » by zimpy27 » Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:45 pm

I'd like to see the starting lineup as Rose, Okogie, Covington, Saric, KAT
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