Trade Talk (Part Seven)

[Klomp]

"A five-out system will never work with Ben Simmons in the lineup." -RealGM

Watch on YouTube

[shangrila]

I listened to a National podcast this morning that seemed surprised that the Sixers were expecting an All Star caliber player for Simmons. They said right now that Simmons was the least value of all All Stars, and they may have to add value to get an All Star caliber player back. The fact that he is already paid big bucks, and the damage he does to an offense will greatly limit offers.

They're not going to open negotiations at "A starting level point guard, a role playing shooter and a couple of protected firsts".

The public messaging they're leaking out will be that they want a haul, and that's where they'll start in negotiations. It's not what they'll bring back unless there's some kind of intense bidding war.

I remember someone telling a story before the draft last year, might have been Windhorst, where they said that Rosas would ring every team in the league and offer the #1 pick for their best player and then work back from there.

So it wouldn't surprise me at all if Morey was identical.

[shangrila]

"A five-out system will never work with Ben Simmons in the lineup." -RealGM

Watch on YouTube

"You cannot use a one game sample size to prove others wrong." - shangrila

[Domejandro]

"A five-out system will never work with Ben Simmons in the lineup." -RealGM

Watch on YouTube

"You cannot use a one game sample size to prove others wrong." - shangrila

The entire crux of the anti-Simmons argument is a Playoff series where he shot historically bad from the free-throw line.

Frankly, when you look at Ben Simmons' entire body of work, it is pretty obvious that his offensive fit with Minnesota is excellent. The dude is an unbelievable cutter and finisher around the basket, his ability to finish is traffic is astonishing.

[packforfreedom]

"A five-out system will never work with Ben Simmons in the lineup." -RealGM

Watch on YouTube

"You cannot use a one game sample size to prove others wrong." - shangrila

The entire crux of the anti-Simmons argument is a Playoff series where he shot historically bad from the free-throw line.

Frankly, when you look at Ben Simmons' entire body of work, it is pretty obvious that his offensive fit with Minnesota is excellent. The dude is an unbelievable cutter and finisher around the basket, his ability to finish is traffic is astonishing.

yes and no

of course this playoff series played a tremendous into his perception right now. I don't know if one play ever diminished the public opinion of a player as much as Simmons passed up dunk. Yes he's still one of the best defender in the leauge, a good playmaker and (usually) a very good finisher, but no, his free throws and this not taken dunk aren't the only arguments brought up.
His flat out refusal to shoot jump shots is concerning since it would expand his game so much. I don't believe he's historically untalented in that area so I assume he could make jumpers if he's willing to take actions in this regard (work, training, support about the mental aspects etc etc.) so this alone is red flag-ish for me.

However I am starting to change my very strict NO regarding any trade for Simmons towards a i could very well live with a trade, if the price is not too high (no Edwards, no KAT, if possible no Dlo).Because in the end of the day, getting such a talented and good player this cheap is an opportunity that doesn't come often and I simply can't deny the fact that our roster is a much better fit for Simmons than it was with the Sixers.

[SO_MONEY]

"A five-out system will never work with Ben Simmons in the lineup." -RealGM

Watch on YouTube

"You cannot use a one game sample size to prove others wrong." - shangrila

The entire crux of the anti-Simmons argument is a Playoff series where he shot historically bad from the free-throw line.

Frankly, when you look at Ben Simmons' entire body of work, it is pretty obvious that his offensive fit with Minnesota is excellent. The dude is an unbelievable cutter and finisher around the basket, his ability to finish is traffic is astonishing.

I think the crux of the anti-Simmons argument is that he is a good/okay player, with massive flaws, has shown no improvement and is making $35mil.

[jpatrick]

My prediction is the kings eventually give in and include Haliburton in their offer. So something like Hali, Bagley, #9, and filler for Simmons and #28.

I get why Sacramento would do it. Wouldn’t shock me if Simmons averaged 25/12/8 with his own team to control. He’s a regular season floor raiser.

But the fit, especially for playoff basketball, is really poor. Sacramento has a good, but complete non-shooting, center in Holmes. And their other star, Fox, is also a poor shooter. You can’t have Simmons with only one great shooter (Buddy) and one good shooter (Barnes) during the playoffs. But I don’t think they care about winning in the playoffs, just getting there.

[shrink]

"A five-out system will never work with Ben Simmons in the lineup." -RealGM

Watch on YouTube

"You cannot use a one game sample size to prove others wrong." - shangrila

The entire crux of the anti-Simmons argument is a Playoff series where he shot historically bad from the free-throw line.

Frankly, when you look at Ben Simmons' entire body of work, it is pretty obvious that his offensive fit with Minnesota is excellent. The dude is an unbelievable cutter and finisher around the basket, his ability to finish is traffic is astonishing.

I’m with shangrila on this one. Every small sample compilation video can make even a college player look unstoppable.

Next, I watched the first 6-8 possessions, and none of them looked like a 5-out to me.

Finally, the “entire crux” of the anti-Simmons argument is not one playoff series with bad free throw shooting, it’s

1. A big max deal
2. His inability to shoot three pointers limits KAT’s match up ability. (Career: 14.7%)
3. His lack of improvement his whole career in shooting
4. His defender can clog the lane (because of his lack of shooting), making it harder for Edwards and others to drive the lane.
5. A lack of confidence that may remain where he refuses to shoot and is afraid to get fouled.
6. His poor free throw shooting makes a “Hack-a-Ben” strategy tough in the playoffs. (52% in 34 playoff games, not one bad series)

I understand hungry MIN fans rarely get nice shiny things, so everything looks better than it is to us. I also understand Simmons is one of the best defensive players in the league. But the offensive, financial, and mental risks (continued inability to shoot, getting worse) are there, and need to be factored into his valuation and fit on this team.

[jpatrick]

I look at what Jrue Holiday is doing defensively this finals. He is currently complete garbage offensively but his impact on the perimeter defensively completely changes the game. Last night Chris Paul wanted nothing to do with him. Simmons is as good if not better on that end.

[shrink]

I listened to a National podcast this morning that seemed surprised that the Sixers were expecting an All Star caliber player for Simmons. They said right now that Simmons was the least value of all All Stars, and they may have to add value to get an All Star caliber player back. The fact that he is already paid big bucks, and the damage he does to an offense will greatly limit offers.

They're not going to open negotiations at "A starting level point guard, a role playing shooter and a couple of protected firsts".

The public messaging they're leaking out will be that they want a haul, and that's where they'll start in negotiations. It's not what they'll bring back unless there's some kind of intense bidding war.

I remember someone telling a story before the draft last year, might have been Windhorst, where they said that Rosas would ring every team in the league and offer the #1 pick for their best player and then work back from there.

So it wouldn't surprise me at all if Morey was identical.

You’d probably be right. Supposedly as the GM in HOU, Morey’s standard M.O. was to flood other GM’s with lots of one-sided offers, hoping one would stick. The story was that it became kind of a joke with the GM community. It sounds like Rosas may have adopted the same strategy.

Incidentally, this isn’t necessarily a good strategy. As I mentioned recently on the Trade Board, it might work if you’re Rick from Pawn Stars, where you are likely having a one-time interaction with a seller or buyer. However, in situations where you may exchange multiple different offers over a long time span, your reputation matters. This is standard game theory, or maybe people here may be more familiar with fantasy sports.

There always seems to be one guy in your league that is continually sending you bad trade offers. The first few you can laugh off, thinking he may just have a different valuation of these individual guys. After a while though, over multiple bad deals and multiple bad valuations, you realize the only consistent factor here is you. Enough bad deals, and it is insulting, like he is questioning your intelligence or fitness as a manager. When someone gets this reputation, you are less likely to trade with them, suspicious if you ever get an offer that’s even close (what am I missing?) and when you have things to sell, he is the last person you contact.

Morey is usually thought of as a great GM, and he had some early successes as a trader, particularly identifying that Harden would be excellent in a larger role. However, his later years haven’t been great, and it makes me wonder if this strategy is wearing thin with many GM’s. It also worries me that as a Morey disciple, Rosas may end up overpaying in a Morey deal.

[King Malta]

They're not going to open negotiations at "A starting level point guard, a role playing shooter and a couple of protected firsts".

The public messaging they're leaking out will be that they want a haul, and that's where they'll start in negotiations. It's not what they'll bring back unless there's some kind of intense bidding war.

I remember someone telling a story before the draft last year, might have been Windhorst, where they said that Rosas would ring every team in the league and offer the #1 pick for their best player and then work back from there.

So it wouldn't surprise me at all if Morey was identical.

You’d probably be right. Supposedly as the GM in HOU, Morey’s standard M.O. was to flood other GM’s with lots of one-sided offers, hoping one would stick. The story was that it became kind of a joke with the GM community. It sounds like Rosas may have adopted the same strategy.

Incidentally, this isn’t necessarily a good strategy. As I mentioned recently on the Trade Board, it might work if you’re Rick from Pawn Stars, where you are likely having a one-time interaction with a seller or buyer. However, in situations where you may exchange multiple different offers over a long time span, your reputation matters. This is standard game theory, or maybe people here may be more familiar with fantasy sports.

There always seems to be one guy in your league that is continually sending you bad trade offers. The first few you can laugh off, thinking he may just have a different valuation of these individual guys. After a while though, over multiple bad deals and multiple bad valuations, you realize the only consistent factor here is you. Enough bad deals, and it is insulting, like he is questioning your intelligence or fitness as a manager. When someone gets this reputation, you are less likely to trade with them, suspicious if you ever get an offer that’s even close (what am I missing?) and when you have things to sell, he is the last person you contact.

Morey is usually thought of as a great GM, and he had some early successes as a trader, particularly identifying that Harden would be excellent in a larger role. However, his later years haven’t been great, and it makes me wonder if this strategy is wearing thin with many GM’s. It also worries me that as a Morey disciple, Rosas may end up overpaying in a Morey deal.

Tbh I think you're over analysing this a little.

No successfull salesman/GM/etc opens negotiations at the exact point they're willing to cede on, that wouldn't make any sense. The Sixers are very early in the process (lol) of this trade and they're clearly going to start off asking for more than they'll likely settle on.

No different from selling a used car or TV really.

[shrink]

I remember someone telling a story before the draft last year, might have been Windhorst, where they said that Rosas would ring every team in the league and offer the #1 pick for their best player and then work back from there.

So it wouldn't surprise me at all if Morey was identical.

You’d probably be right. Supposedly as the GM in HOU, Morey’s standard M.O. was to flood other GM’s with lots of one-sided offers, hoping one would stick. The story was that it became kind of a joke with the GM community. It sounds like Rosas may have adopted the same strategy.

Incidentally, this isn’t necessarily a good strategy. As I mentioned recently on the Trade Board, it might work if you’re Rick from Pawn Stars, where you are likely having a one-time interaction with a seller or buyer. However, in situations where you may exchange multiple different offers over a long time span, your reputation matters. This is standard game theory, or maybe people here may be more familiar with fantasy sports.

There always seems to be one guy in your league that is continually sending you bad trade offers. The first few you can laugh off, thinking he may just have a different valuation of these individual guys. After a while though, over multiple bad deals and multiple bad valuations, you realize the only consistent factor here is you. Enough bad deals, and it is insulting, like he is questioning your intelligence or fitness as a manager. When someone gets this reputation, you are less likely to trade with them, suspicious if you ever get an offer that’s even close (what am I missing?) and when you have things to sell, he is the last person you contact.

Morey is usually thought of as a great GM, and he had some early successes as a trader, particularly identifying that Harden would be excellent in a larger role. However, his later years haven’t been great, and it makes me wonder if this strategy is wearing thin with many GM’s. It also worries me that as a Morey disciple, Rosas may end up overpaying in a Morey deal.

Tbh I think you're overanalsying this a little.

Nobody opens negotiations at the exact point they're willing to cede on, that wouldn't make any sense. The Sixers are very early in the process (lol) of this trade and they're clearly going to start off asking for more than they'll likely settle on.

No different from selling a used car or TV really.

You’re not the first to accuse me of over-analyzing!

I agree with you in principle. An opening offer can be low, but it can’t be insulting, and it especially can’t be insulting over and over again.

In any good transaction, both sides come out as winners. A loaf of bread might be worth 50 cents to the baker, but worth a dollar to the hungry man. Both sides win if they make a trade for any price between 51 cents and 99 cents — the final price simply determines how much each sides wins. If Morey is the baker, and he keeps asking for $1.50, eventually the hungry man looks for a different baker.

Also, keep in mind that if you want repeat customers, you might even start with the a consistent fair price. WalMart is going to sell you bread for 65 cents, no haggling from either side. At that price, you both profit and they want you to keep coming back.

[Domejandro]

"You cannot use a one game sample size to prove others wrong." - shangrila

The entire crux of the anti-Simmons argument is a Playoff series where he shot historically bad from the free-throw line.

Frankly, when you look at Ben Simmons' entire body of work, it is pretty obvious that his offensive fit with Minnesota is excellent. The dude is an unbelievable cutter and finisher around the basket, his ability to finish is traffic is astonishing.

I’m with shangrila on this one. Every small sample compilation video can make even a college player look unstoppable.

Next, I watched the first 6-8 possessions, and none of them looked like a 5-out to me.

Finally, the “entire crux” of the anti-Simmons argument is not one playoff series with bad free throw shooting, it’s

1. A big max deal
2. His inability to shoot three pointers limits KAT’s match up ability. (Career: 14.7%)
3. His lack of improvement his whole career in shooting
4. His defender can clog the lane (because of his lack of shooting), making it harder for Edwards and others to drive the lane.
5. A lack of confidence that may remain where he refuses to shoot and is afraid to get fouled.
6. His poor free throw shooting makes a “Hack-a-Ben” strategy tough in the playoffs. (52% in 34 playoff games, not one bad series)

I understand MIN fans rarely get nice shiny things, so everything looks better than it is to us our hunger. I also understand Simmons is one of the best defensive players in the league. But the offensive, financial, and mental risks (continued inability to shoot, getting worse) are there, and need to be factored into his valuation and fit on this team.

The line-up is Seth Curry, Danny Green, Tobias Harris, Mike Scott, and Ben Simmons, that is the structure of a five-out line-up (look at the open lanes that Ben Simmons takes advantage of), despite Coach Rivers' bad offense.

Regardless, Ben Simmons absolutely does not undercut Karl-Anthony Towns' "match up ability". When you put a big on Ben Simmons, he is consistently able to drive passed them, especially when you put Simmons in pick-and-roll action (for example, that video shows him torching Derrick Favors in pick-and-roll as Philadelphia's center). You can look at any video, but I'll use the Utah game one there to illustrate it, look at the way in which Derrick Favors (who is objectively an incredibly mobile big man defensive player) is not able to pick up in space due to Simmons' elite screening technique. This happens to Gobert in the third quarter as well. In particular, his actions as a screener for Tobias Harris illustrate how frightening an Anthony Edwards and Ben Simmons pick-and-roll would be, given Simmons' ability to operate as a finisher and shovel passer.

The component that your "he can't shoot" analysis is missing (in my opinion) is that you are not incorporating how elite Ben Simmons is as a finisher. He rounds out the top-three tier alongside of Giannis Antetokounmpo and Zion Williams as elite wing finishers. Game three of this year's NBA finals had Giannis scoring forty-one points without making a single shot outside of four-feet. When you have that level of finishing ability as a ball-handler, you literally can't rotate your big man onto them because of their mobility (especially as cutters). This creates a matchup problem, given that Ben Simmons abuses smaller defenders.

The biggest component that does need to be fixed is his free-throw shooting. He is a career 59.7% free-throw shooter, the team would need to develop him into consistently shooting at least 65% from the line and maintain that during Playoff basketball; slightly over 60% is roughly the breakpoint where hack-a-[insert name] becomes bunk strategy, so I think 65% is what he needs to consistently reach. I think that is completely doable.

[SO_MONEY]

They're not going to open negotiations at "A starting level point guard, a role playing shooter and a couple of protected firsts".

The public messaging they're leaking out will be that they want a haul, and that's where they'll start in negotiations. It's not what they'll bring back unless there's some kind of intense bidding war.

I remember someone telling a story before the draft last year, might have been Windhorst, where they said that Rosas would ring every team in the league and offer the #1 pick for their best player and then work back from there.

So it wouldn't surprise me at all if Morey was identical.

You’d probably be right. Supposedly as the GM in HOU, Morey’s standard M.O. was to flood other GM’s with lots of one-sided offers, hoping one would stick. The story was that it became kind of a joke with the GM community. It sounds like Rosas may have adopted the same strategy.

Incidentally, this isn’t necessarily a good strategy. As I mentioned recently on the Trade Board, it might work if you’re Rick from Pawn Stars, where you are likely having a one-time interaction with a seller or buyer. However, in situations where you may exchange multiple different offers over a long time span, your reputation matters. This is standard game theory, or maybe people here may be more familiar with fantasy sports.

There always seems to be one guy in your league that is continually sending you bad trade offers. The first few you can laugh off, thinking he may just have a different valuation of these individual guys. After a while though, over multiple bad deals and multiple bad valuations, you realize the only consistent factor here is you. Enough bad deals, and it is insulting, like he is questioning your intelligence or fitness as a manager. When someone gets this reputation, you are less likely to trade with them, suspicious if you ever get an offer that’s even close (what am I missing?) and when you have things to sell, he is the last person you contact.

Morey is usually thought of as a great GM, and he had some early successes as a trader, particularly identifying that Harden would be excellent in a larger role. However, his later years haven’t been great, and it makes me wonder if this strategy is wearing thin with many GM’s. It also worries me that as a Morey disciple, Rosas may end up overpaying in a Morey deal.

I am not really worried about overpayment, I liken the Philly situation to one where a guy is trading in his old car, unhappy with the offer, only to be left standing, mumbling "but its a Lexus".

Anyways, I don't really see a situation where Simmons commands a ton (obviously subjective). If Philly wants to trade him at the end of the day it will probably be a decent though underwhelming offer they accept.

[shrink]

The entire crux of the anti-Simmons argument is a Playoff series where he shot historically bad from the free-throw line.

Frankly, when you look at Ben Simmons' entire body of work, it is pretty obvious that his offensive fit with Minnesota is excellent. The dude is an unbelievable cutter and finisher around the basket, his ability to finish is traffic is astonishing.

I’m with shangrila on this one. Every small sample compilation video can make even a college player look unstoppable.

Next, I watched the first 6-8 possessions, and none of them looked like a 5-out to me.

Finally, the “entire crux” of the anti-Simmons argument is not one playoff series with bad free throw shooting, it’s

1. A big max deal
2. His inability to shoot three pointers limits KAT’s match up ability. (Career: 14.7%)
3. His lack of improvement his whole career in shooting
4. His defender can clog the lane (because of his lack of shooting), making it harder for Edwards and others to drive the lane.
5. A lack of confidence that may remain where he refuses to shoot and is afraid to get fouled.
6. His poor free throw shooting makes a “Hack-a-Ben” strategy tough in the playoffs. (52% in 34 playoff games, not one bad series)

I understand MIN fans rarely get nice shiny things, so everything looks better than it is to us our hunger. I also understand Simmons is one of the best defensive players in the league. But the offensive, financial, and mental risks (continued inability to shoot, getting worse) are there, and need to be factored into his valuation and fit on this team.

The line-up is Seth Curry, Danny Green, Tobias Harris, Mike Scott, and Ben Simmons, that is the structure of a five-out line-up (look at the open lanes that Ben Simmons takes advantage of), despite Coach Rivers' bad offense.

Regardless, Ben Simmons absolutely does not undercut Karl-Anthony Towns' "match up ability". When you put a big on Ben Simmons, he is consistently able to drive passed them, especially when you put Simmons in pick-and-roll action (for example, that video shows him torching Derrick Favors in pick-and-roll as Philadelphia's center). You can look at any video, but I'll use the Utah game one there to illustrate it, look at the way in which Derrick Favors (who is objectively an incredibly mobile big man defensive player) is not able to pick up in space due to Simmons' elite screening technique. This happens to Gobert in the third quarter as well. In particular, his actions as a screener for Tobias Harris illustrate how frightening an Anthony Edwards and Ben Simmons pick-and-roll would be, given Simmons' ability to operate as a finisher and shovel passer.

The component that your "he can't shoot" analysis is missing (in my opinion) is that you are not incorporating how elite Ben Simmons is as a finisher. He rounds out the top-three tier alongside of Giannis Antetokounmpo and Zion Williams as elite wing finishers. Game three of this year's NBA finals had Giannis scoring forty-one points without making a single shot outside of four-feet. When you have that level of finishing ability as a ball-handler, you literally can't rotate your big man onto them because of their mobility (especially as cutters). This creates a matchup problem, given that Ben Simmons abuses smaller defenders.

The biggest component that does need to be fixed is his free-throw shooting. He is a career 59.7% free-throw shooter, the team would need to develop him into consistently shooting at least 65% from the line and maintain that during Playoff basketball; slightly over 60% is roughly the breakpoint where hack-a-[insert name] becomes bunk strategy, so I think 65% is what he needs to consistently reach. I think that is completely doable.

I appreciate this post. I am not the x’s-and-o’s guy that many are on this board, so I am constantly learning.

I would ask a question though

In the previous season, a pair of back-to-back UTA games had a profound affect on me. In the first game, the Jazz played Gobert on Towns, Rudy stayed close to the rim, and Towns torched him for like 9-for-13 three’s and a Wolves win. The next game, the Wolves continued to play with two big men that were credible three point threats. The Jazz had to counter by playing Rudy Gobert man-to-man on Towns, all the way out to the perimeter. One of the historically greatest defensive centers at altering and taking away shots underneath was forced to completely abandon his strength, because of the match up problems!

If Simmons is on the floor, Gobert just stays underneath, right? And am I mislabeling a 5-out, where all five players can be a threat outside to make a three pointer, requiring they be guarded out there?

[jpatrick]

If Gobert is going to stay under the room, isn’t the counter to pick and roll with Simmons setting the screen? If Gobert isn’t going to come up and help, this should give DLo, Edwards, Nowell or whoever is initiating the play a wide open look.

Conversely, Simmons is a great roll finisher, if the guard wanted to attack, it essentially places Gobert in a 2-on-1 situation with possible lob. This is how Atlanta attacked Embiid. Embiid laid back because Capela can’t shoot, so Trae came around the screen and put up a floater if Embiid backed off on the roller (Capela) or if Embiid came out to challenge Trae, he threw up a lob.

Would life be easier if Simmons could shoot? Of course. It’ll affect post up or one on one opportunities. But Simmons has to cut hard when his man collapses. Not perfect but he has so many pluses that we need. My biggest concern would be him mentally. He hasnt improved. The report today out of Miami (you know Jimmy was the source) is that players don’t like him. And in the playoff he crumbled psychologically. But this is where I trust Finch.

[Klomp]

"You cannot use a one game sample size to prove others wrong." - shangrila

The entire crux of the anti-Simmons argument is a Playoff series where he shot historically bad from the free-throw line.

Frankly, when you look at Ben Simmons' entire body of work, it is pretty obvious that his offensive fit with Minnesota is excellent. The dude is an unbelievable cutter and finisher around the basket, his ability to finish is traffic is astonishing.

I’m with shangrila on this one. Every small sample compilation video can make even a college player look unstoppable.

Next, I watched the first 6-8 possessions, and none of them looked like a 5-out to me.

Finally, the “entire crux” of the anti-Simmons argument is not one playoff series with bad free throw shooting, it’s

1. A big max deal
2. His inability to shoot three pointers limits KAT’s match up ability. (Career: 14.7%)
3. His lack of improvement his whole career in shooting
4. His defender can clog the lane (because of his lack of shooting), making it harder for Edwards and others to drive the lane.
5. A lack of confidence that may remain where he refuses to shoot and is afraid to get fouled.
6. His poor free throw shooting makes a “Hack-a-Ben” strategy tough in the playoffs. (52% in 34 playoff games, not one bad series)

I understand hungry MIN fans rarely get nice shiny things, so everything looks better than it is to us. I also understand Simmons is one of the best defensive players in the league. But the offensive, financial, and mental risks (continued inability to shoot, getting worse) are there, and need to be factored into his valuation and fit on this team.

These are all essentially one thing, but nice attempt at fooling people into thinking it was five. We know he can't shoot.

And again, I'd argue that Philadelphia (more specifically, Doc Rivers) carries quite a bit of the blame. He's 6-foot-10 and 240 lbs. An offensive-absent Thibs was able to make Towns and (a smaller-than-that) Gibson work together well, I see no reason why Finch (an offensive guru, by all accounts) couldn't construct an offense around the given skill sets. Don't put him at PG, it's not that hard. Gibson never got in Towns' way. Garnett never got in Towns' way. These are PFs who couldn't (and wouldn't) shoot 3-pointers. Just need a competent offensive coach. I've said forever, 3-point shooting is not the most important quality a PF next to Towns needs to have in this system. It's movement ability. Simmons has that in spades.

If you're worried about calling Simmons a PF, fine. Make him the PG in your positional labels and shift everyone down. Russell to SG, Edwards to SF, McDaniels to PF. Really makes no difference in the lineup or how they'll be used on the court.

[shrink]

These are all essentially one thing, but nice attempt at fooling people into thinking it was five. We know he can't shoot.

For the record, I wasn’t trying to fool people. A player that can’t make three pointers but can make free throws (or vice versa) creates less problems than a player that can’t do both. And less chance of improving is certainly another specific issue - it reflects his biggest weaknesses won’t improve as his contract gets bigger.

In addition, these problems create specific issues for the current composition of the Wolves. I didn’t even mention the overlap, like taking the ball out of offense-only DLo’s hands to put it in Simmons more, makes DLo’s chance of producing near his max contract worse. Simmons has the most value with the ball in his hands, but so do others here.

[Dewey]

I look at what Jrue Holiday is doing defensively this finals. He is currently complete garbage offensively but his impact on the perimeter defensively completely changes the game. Last night Chris Paul wanted nothing to do with him. Simmons is as good if not better on that end.

I like this post and I agree that he can impact the game… I can walk away from it and his $35 million salary but that type of player is hard to find. I also struggle to give up multiple unprotected first round picks on top of it. I don’t have the answer and I’m not even sure we have what they want… But you got to play with it and see where it goes

[ClarkeW]

What do people think about this as the basis of a deal?

TIMBERWOLVES
In: Ben Simmons, George Hill
Out: Ricky Rubio, Malik Beasley, Jarret Culver, Jake Layman, Two Protected 1st Round Picks

76ERS
In: Kyle Lowry, Malik Beasley, Jarret Culver, MIN Protected 1st Round Pick
Out: Ben Simmons, George Hill

RAPTORS
In: Ricky Rubio, Jake Layman, MIN Protected 1st Round Pick
Out: Kyle Lowry (S&T)

I think I’d be pretty happy with that honestly. Salaries should all match, and I feel like compensation is pretty fair for all three teams. Would leave us with a roster like this going into the season…

PG: D’Angelo Russell / George Hill
SG: Anthony Edwards / Jaylen Nowell
SF: Jaden McDaniels / Josh Okogie
PF: Ben Simmons / Juancho Hernangomez
C: Karl-Anthony Towns / Naz Reid

I love that starting lineup. I know George Hill’s contract isn’t guaranteed and we could cut him to make cap space, but I think he’s the type of veteran leader our bench would need with Rubio gone and he’s on a relatively affordable expiring contract (which could possibly be used at the deadline if this all goes to complete ****).

So what am I forgetting to factor in here that makes this trade non-feasible?