Butler has requested a trade (Part II)

[TaylorTag]

I dont want to make big assumptions because at this point I don't know what is true and what isn't. I do know that Taylor is not a great owner, with that said, at the very least he has kept the team in Minnesota and has tried to make this franchise relevant, he just has not been very good at it. Thibs I have questions about from multiple angles, I think he is stuck in old ways and I think he has issues generating good chemistry amongst his team. Towns Butler beef, who knows what is going on with that. I don't totally buy that Towns was demanding Butler be moved. The only thing I do know is that Butler wants out, my impression is he just wants out of Minnesota, don't know how much of that is money, teammates, or location. Either way he wants no part of this.

The only thing I can say with confidence is that we are not a first rate organization and the we haven't had the impression of being one ever. I think we were trending up during Flips last run here, we got the new facilities we looked like we were building things the right way. That also spiked once we got Butler and on paper had an identity in place. Once again though, it has all blown up in our faces and we look like a bush league franchise who has no idea what they are doing.

I do think it starts at the top, excellence is felt throughout the entire organization. Its something we really have to work hard towards but we keep failing to achieve. Maybe we never will.

I think we took a gamble two years ago and it didn't work. The franchise has been unlucky. Flip Saunders looked like he was about to drag us out of irrelevancy and put us on the path to stardom. His death left us reeling and Taylor gambled on Thibs to replace him. Last year, the Wolves were a top 5 team in the NBA for a lot of the season. Jimmy's injury derailed us.. If Jimmy doesn't get hurt, and we make it out of the first round, who knows where our franchise would be. Maybe the locker room disfunction wouldn't be as damaging if the guys won together in the playoffs. Maybe KAT and Wiggins would still have a problem with Jimmy... Who knows. Either way, you can't blame Taylor for trying and you can't really blame Thibs for trying to compete this year and next year...

The Wolves have Wiggins and Towns locked up long term... We have a weird one-to-two-year window where we can't really overhaul the roster, so we might as well compete... I say give Thibs this season, see what happens. If it doesn't work, then we can focus on a rebuild around Towns and Wiggins, which includes letting Gibson and Tolliver and Rose and Deng walk and trying to shed Teague and Dieng so that we can get younger. It sounds like Thibs is trying to expedite that by getting rid of Dieng.. That's a good sign for the Wolves. Shows that Thibs is thinking long-term here.

[TheDominator273]

Can we please stop calling Butler's next contract a supermax? He lost the chance to get that when he was traded by the Bulls. He is eligible for a regular max contract, but the team with Bird Rights can offer an extra year and higher raises per year than teams trying to sign him with cap space.

[Neeva]

I have a feeling flip would have drafted Murray over Dunn ( we needed the shooting)
And he would have drafted Mitchell ( too good to pass up) wolves would be in a much better place moving forward with that, but Thibs was impatient af! The wolves were in contention for the third seed but no one took them seriously and commentators constantly mocked Thib’s pathetic coaching.

I dont want to make big assumptions because at this point I don't know what is true and what isn't. I do know that Taylor is not a great owner, with that said, at the very least he has kept the team in Minnesota and has tried to make this franchise relevant, he just has not been very good at it. Thibs I have questions about from multiple angles, I think he is stuck in old ways and I think he has issues generating good chemistry amongst his team. Towns Butler beef, who knows what is going on with that. I don't totally buy that Towns was demanding Butler be moved. The only thing I do know is that Butler wants out, my impression is he just wants out of Minnesota, don't know how much of that is money, teammates, or location. Either way he wants no part of this.

The only thing I can say with confidence is that we are not a first rate organization and the we haven't had the impression of being one ever. I think we were trending up during Flips last run here, we got the new facilities we looked like we were building things the right way. That also spiked once we got Butler and on paper had an identity in place. Once again though, it has all blown up in our faces and we look like a bush league franchise who has no idea what they are doing.

I do think it starts at the top, excellence is felt throughout the entire organization. Its something we really have to work hard towards but we keep failing to achieve. Maybe we never will.

I think we took a gamble two years ago and it didn't work. The franchise has been unlucky. Flip Saunders looked like he was about to drag us out of irrelevancy and put us on the path to stardom. His death left us reeling and Taylor gambled on Thibs to replace him. Last year, the Wolves were a top 5 team in the NBA for a lot of the season. Jimmy's injury derailed us.. If Jimmy doesn't get hurt, and we make it out of the first round, who knows where our franchise would be. Maybe the locker room disfunction wouldn't be as damaging if the guys won together in the playoffs. Maybe KAT and Wiggins would still have a problem with Jimmy... Who knows. Either way, you can't blame Taylor for trying and you can't really blame Thibs for trying to compete this year and next year...

The Wolves have Wiggins and Towns locked up long term... We have a weird one-to-two-year window where we can't really overhaul the roster, so we might as well compete... I say give Thibs this season, see what happens. If it doesn't work, then we can focus on a rebuild around Towns and Wiggins, which includes letting Gibson and Tolliver and Rose and Deng walk and trying to shed Teague and Dieng so that we can get younger. It sounds like Thibs is trying to expedite that by getting rid of Dieng.. That's a good sign for the Wolves. Shows that Thibs is thinking long-term here.

[walk with me]

I have a feeling flip would have drafted Murray over Dunn ( we needed the shooting)
And he would have drafted Mitchell ( too good to pass up) wolves would be in a much better place moving forward with that, but Thibs was impatient af! The wolves were in contention for the third seed but no one took them seriously and commentators constantly mocked Thib’s pathetic coaching.

Flip probably would have traded Wiggins for Giannis on draft night and did a rain dance to make glen Taylor get into a car accident and sell the team to kg for 50% off.

[TheProdigy]

I'm starting to join the "make Butler sit out the year" bandwagon. I really enjoyed watching this team against the Warriors. Jones-Okogie-KBD-Tolliver-Dieng looks like a fun bench, and any trade that we make for a wing will push one or both of our rooks out of the rotation. Plus Butler missing out on his 8 figure salary this season is very appealing.

Unless we're getting Otto Porter in return, I say screw Butler and make him lose $.

[AirP.]

Sounds good but not true. If you look at the numbers, Butler rarely assisted Towns. In fact he had 3rd or 4th, close with Wiggins, worst usage late in games. Of course Teague and Butler had the highest usage numbers late in games.

This got me interested in looking at numbers from last year.

Well usg% in 4th quarters, yeah, Butler went high usage. (couldn't find anything more specific)
Butler 32.2
Towns 21.7
Wiggins 20.5
Teague 18.3

Assist% for 4th quarters
Teague 27.1
Tyus 25.9
Butler 20.4
Crawford 16.7
Towns 11.2
Wiggins 7.4

Looking across the league for "hero ball" in the 4th, 13 regulars with more usage then Butler with only 6 of them having a higher TS% then Butler.
Lebron 38.3
Harden 38.2
Oladipo 37.9
Mitchell 37.9
Irving 37.1
Westbrook 37.0
DeRozan 36.2
Embiid 34.7
Walker 34.7
Lillard 34.0
Beal 34.0
Schroder 33.3
Durrant 32.4
Butler 32.2

[walk with me]

lol @ 'Glen didn't let Thibs make HIS moves!'. We have more 11-12 Bulls on our roster than 16-17 Timberwolves. Thibs was able to mortgage the farm for Butler, trade Glen's favorite player, pay double market value for Taj, etc

Well, had Taylor allowed Wiggins to be traded, maybe the future would look much brighter. You know, the guy who has one of the worst contract in basketball now, that guy Taylor said I have the max through the media and waited nearly 2 months for Wiggins to finally sign. You know, Wiggins, the guy it was reported that Thibs was willing to move but Taylor wasn't and this was part of the organizational problems.

I do remember how Taylor was when news of Thibs wanting to bring Rose to town on the minimum. He basically said no and listed out the needs for the team during an interview with Wolfson. A few weeks later when Butler was out, Rose is finally added with the minimum. I personally thought it was a no brainer to bring in Rose to play off the bench for the minimum, he did score 18 ppg the year before as a starter so playing against 2nd team players should have made him look even better... plus Minnesota's bench was horrible.

Rubio had years to work on his outside shooting and to help Minnesota to become a good, hell, just a .500 team which never happened yet for some reason people see him as some superstar. You got cap space and a 1st which equated to Teague and now Okogie for him, that seems like a really good return for someone who never got this team to .500.

Taj double the market value, I'm not quite sure that is accurate, it's one of the reasons Chicago moved him because they expected with a hometown discount to get him for around ~12 million which messed with their cap space for a rebuild. Also, he along with Teague are some of the best free agents this franchise has ever seen which says more about the organization.

Unlike Teague, Rubio never had a supporting cast of Butler, Towns and Wiggins.
Look how well the Utah Jazz did with Rubio last season. Everyone thought they would take a step backwards because Hayward left. Yet they managed to finish 5th in the tough West with a roster lacking any elite player except for Gobert. And even Gobert missed almost 30 games!!!

Ricky wouldn’t be a good fit for the wolves. I was never a fan of him honestly but he’s got use in Utah because the starting line up is all shooters and the center is a screen and lob guy. Which helps ricky be great at what he’s great at which is penetrating and passing (not shooting or scoring).

With jimmy, Kat and Wiggins we already have enough iso scorers. Ricky would just end up having the ball out of his hands a lot and taking up room on the floor cause he can’t really shoot. The ideal pg with Wiggins, Kat and Jimmy would have been someone who can shoot, score out of the iso and can function in an offense without the ball in their hand.

Ricky wasn’t ever the guy for this team and it’s not cause he’s bad. The fit just doesn’t really make sense.

[TaylorTag]

I'm starting to join the "make Butler sit out the year" bandwagon. I really enjoyed watching this team against the Warriors. Jones-Okogie-KBD-Tolliver-Dieng looks like a fun bench, and any trade that we make for a wing will push one or both of our rooks out of the rotation. Plus Butler missing out on his 8 figure salary this season is very appealing.

Unless we're getting Otto Porter in return, I say screw Butler and make him lose $.

I've been on this wagon for a while.. unless the Wolves get a package that has zero negative assets and sets us up for the future, I say we just let Butler sit out the season and roll with the squad that is here.

EDIT: And this has nothing to do with retribution against Jimmy or anything.. Think it's what best for the franchise... If a team in January or February is finally willing to part way with good assets, great, if not, oh well, worse things have happened in professional sports

[Neeva]

Nah id rather get some promising players on decent deals and draft picks than nothing at all, not like the wolves will attract anyone splash worthy in free agency anyway and thibs overpays free agents while other teams sign them on bargain deals :/..

I'm starting to join the "make Butler sit out the year" bandwagon. I really enjoyed watching this team against the Warriors. Jones-Okogie-KBD-Tolliver-Dieng looks like a fun bench, and any trade that we make for a wing will push one or both of our rooks out of the rotation. Plus Butler missing out on his 8 figure salary this season is very appealing.

Unless we're getting Otto Porter in return, I say screw Butler and make him lose $.

I've been on this wagon for a while.. unless the Wolves get a package that has zero negative assets and sets us up for the future, I say we just let Butler sit out the season and roll with the squad that is here.

EDIT: And this has nothing to do with retribution against Jimmy or anything.. Think it's what best for the franchise... If a team in January or February is finally willing to part way with good assets, great, if not, oh well, worse things have happened in professional sports

[TaylorTag]

Nah id rather get some promising players on decent deals and draft picks than nothing at all, not like the wolves will attract anyone splash worthy in free agency anyway and thibs overpays players...

I'm starting to join the "make Butler sit out the year" bandwagon. I really enjoyed watching this team against the Warriors. Jones-Okogie-KBD-Tolliver-Dieng looks like a fun bench, and any trade that we make for a wing will push one or both of our rooks out of the rotation. Plus Butler missing out on his 8 figure salary this season is very appealing.

Unless we're getting Otto Porter in return, I say screw Butler and make him lose $.

I've been on this wagon for a while.. unless the Wolves get a package that has zero negative assets and sets us up for the future, I say we just let Butler sit out the season and roll with the squad that is here.

EDIT: And this has nothing to do with retribution against Jimmy or anything.. Think it's what best for the franchise... If a team in January or February is finally willing to part way with good assets, great, if not, oh well, worse things have happened in professional sports

I think we are on the same page... the problem is it appears teams are not offering "promising players on decent deals and draft picks"

[Merc_Porto]

Looks like Butler's camp is getting nervous...
SIT HIS ASS ALL SEASON LONG.

[Neeva]

At this point I would take richardson/bam draft pick for Butler and patton and run.

Nah id rather get some promising players on decent deals and draft picks than nothing at all, not like the wolves will attract anyone splash worthy in free agency anyway and thibs overpays players...

I've been on this wagon for a while.. unless the Wolves get a package that has zero negative assets and sets us up for the future, I say we just let Butler sit out the season and roll with the squad that is here.

EDIT: And this has nothing to do with retribution against Jimmy or anything.. Think it's what best for the franchise... If a team in January or February is finally willing to part way with good assets, great, if not, oh well, worse things have happened in professional sports

I think we are on the same page... the problem is it appears teams are not offering "promising players on decent deals and draft picks"

[TaylorTag]

At this point I would take richardson/bam draft pick for Butler and patton and run.

Nah id rather get some promising players on decent deals and draft picks than nothing at all, not like the wolves will attract anyone splash worthy in free agency anyway and thibs overpays players...

I think we are on the same page... the problem is it appears teams are not offering "promising players on decent deals and draft picks"

yeah same, but by all accounts Richardson and Bam is off the table... I think a deal would have been done by now if we could get that package

[Neeva]

I think the problem
Is we have to take freaking waiters to make that trade work:/ financially

At this point I would take richardson/bam draft pick for Butler and patton and run.

I think we are on the same page... the problem is it appears teams are not offering "promising players on decent deals and draft picks"

yeah same, but by all accounts Richardson and Bam is off the table... I think a deal would have been done by now if we could get that package

[TaylorTag]

I think the problem
Is we have to take freaking waiters to make that trade work:/ financially

At this point I would take richardson/bam draft pick for Butler and patton and run.

yeah same, but by all accounts Richardson and Bam is off the table... I think a deal would have been done by now if we could get that package

Yeah that's not ideal..

I do think Miami makes the most sense... If Phoenix really wants a PG, maybe they could take on Dragic which would help make the money work... but then you prolly need to get the Kings involved to take on a contract from Phoenix.. It just gets really confusing to make the money work..

Unfortunately, the Heat have few good assets. Most of their players are on crappy deals

You could do: Butler/Dieng for Olynyk/Winslow/Tyler Johnson...

Olynyk is on a slightly cheaper contract than Dieng and while Johnson is expensive, he is an expiring next season... if the Heat throw in a first I think Thibs should drop the "Richardson must be included" tactic and accept that trade

[shrink]

MIN (not sure who exactly Thibs or Glen) try to hold on until we get better offers but something tells me that as time goes the offers will get only worse. The only chance as I wrote before is slow start for other team that will decide to blown up current. roster to get Jimmy.

Taylor made a big mistake going over their heads when they were trying to leverage value.

Other GM’s told Taylor at the Board of Governor’s meeting that Thibs was refusing to take any calls on Jimmy Butler.

If there is no communication with an organization, there is no way to leverage value, or to do a deal.

After telling your home board that MIN was trying to trade Towns, I don’t know why you keep coming back here, to give us your insight on our team. Not appreciated.

[shrink]

Stars win in the NBA. Not scrubs. Now if you want to settle for mediocrity that is one way to go. I'd rather go for the best player we can get. Quality trumps quantity every time. Also a team of Middleton/Porter/Towns IMO would have a bright future.

Right, stars, Porter and Middleton are not stars. Middleton has at least has came close to being an all-star, Porter not really.

They are stars. Any top 50 player in the league is a star. There aren't even two of those top 50 players in the league per team.

Everyone’s definition of a Star is different. For me, it’s not just about being an above average starter. You also have to be marketable.

Middleton, Porter, Tobias Harris, and Eric Gordon are not stars to me. Good players, but not stars.

[karch34]

I think the Woj podcast someone had put up did have a good point that if anything good for MN is going to come back it's going to take months rather than weeks. So we'll see if he sits or plays soon enough I guess.

In regards to some other points:
-Taylor is not a good owner, I think he wants to win and do the right thing, but he meddles too much, showed too much loyalty to people who didn't deserve it in the past, etc. I think Thibs seemed like the right hire at the time, but now the POBO/Coach role is not going to happen anymore and I don't know what mandate he gave (playoffs vs long term development) and what philosophy between those two options Thibs agreed to.

-Thibs the POBO is not working well with Thibs the coach. I think they made some good moves in FA and the draft to try to improve the team, but Thibs offensive system is all ISO ball.

- Who knows what happened in the locker room as by all accounts none of the big 3 are considered bad guys. It could be something where Butler said I'm the man and it rubbed people the wrong way since he has nothing but a 2nd round appearance in his resume, it could be KAT has more fire on bad calls with the refs than in his play, it could be that Wiggins has a lot of talent but doesn't bring it, and probably each guy thinks they're not being used right. If they can somehow make it work this is still a very good team, if not it depends on what we get back.

[shrink]

The ultimate reality of Kat & Wiggins vs Jimmy is simply that glen probably doesn’t want to go over the cap paying jimmy 190m which is slightly understandable.

I’m pretty sure if glen was willing to pay jimmy there would be no issues.

What a silly conjecture!

First, you mean to be accusing Taylor of being unwilling to go over the “lux,” and not the “cap.”

Second, MIN certainly traded a lot of youth, if they had no intention of holding onto him.

Third, Butler is a Top 12 player in the nba, and is certainly worth the max. Look at the 40 or so guys out there that are getting the max, or close to it!

Fourth, Taylor isn’t able to offer the max yet - that would come at the end of the year. What he did do was offer the max extension under the CBA, though that number is less than the max he would get at the end of the season.

Fifth, Jimmy is frustrated that MIN didn’t try to get $30 mil under the cap (not the lux) this summer to renegotiate his contract. It would have been virtually impossible for the Wolves to do so last summer, given the players on their books have them $20 mil over the cap.

Finally, the reason that we even have a max deal provision in the CBA is because Glen Taylor offered Garnett such a big contract, the biggest ever at that time, that the other owners said that they needed rules to prevent billionaire owners from simply buying the best talent.

[karch34]

Right, stars, Porter and Middleton are not stars. Middleton has at least has came close to being an all-star, Porter not really.

They are stars. Any top 50 player in the league is a star. There aren't even two of those top 50 players in the league per team.

Everyone’s definition of a Star is different. For me, it’s not just about being an above average starter. You also have to be marketable.

Middleton, Porter, and Eric Gordon are not stars to me.

Agreed. I think of true stars as the top 15 or so that can be the #1 or maybe #2 on a championship team. Good players are that 20-50 range and can probably be #3 on a championship team. Role players/above average starters are probably the next 50-60.

That said getting a player in the top 50 that can pair with Town and Wiggins for Butler is best we can hope for. I'd be happy with Porter, Middleton, and Harris as one of those.