Re: Trade Talk (Part Twelve): 2023 Playoff Push Edition

[TimberKat]

Expect Ant.

I trade Ant too but certainly understand how others feel.

Trading Ant for Brown would be the worst trade in Wolves history instantly. Trading a true building block at 21 for a supporting piece? That would be like the Kings trading Haliburton for Sabonis now.

Yes, this where my opinion differ from most people here. I see Brown as someone that is overshadowed by Tatum. Like Harden at OKC with KD. I think Brown is at least at Butler or PG level. There is still question about Ant's ceiling. Is he Baron Davis, Kyrie, DWade, Harden, or MJ? You see Towns hit his ceiling fairly quickly (but I do hope he has another gear). So, it's a sure thing for potential. A bird in a hand is worth two in the field. PG for Davis? PG for Kyrie? PG for DWade?

[Mattya]

I trade Ant too but certainly understand how others feel.

Trading Ant for Brown would be the worst trade in Wolves history instantly. Trading a true building block at 21 for a supporting piece? That would be like the Kings trading Haliburton for Sabonis now.

Yes, this where my opinion differ from most people here. I see Brown as someone that is overshadowed by Tatum. Like Harden at OKC with KD. I think Brown is at least at Butler or PG level. There is still question about Ant's ceiling. Is he Baron Davis, Kyrie, DWade, Harden, or MJ? You see Towns hit his ceiling fairly quickly (but I do hope he has another gear). So, it's a sure thing for potential. A bird in a hand is worth two in the field. PG for Davis? PG for Kyrie? PG for DWade?

Ant at 21 is very clearly of the potential of Wade, Irving, maybe more. Hell neither of those guys were playing as good as Ant is now until they were 23 or 24. I don’t know how people still don’t see what Ant is. He has been underrated since the draft.

[TimberKat]

Trading Ant for Brown would be the worst trade in Wolves history instantly. Trading a true building block at 21 for a supporting piece? That would be like the Kings trading Haliburton for Sabonis now.

Yes, this where my opinion differ from most people here. I see Brown as someone that is overshadowed by Tatum. Like Harden at OKC with KD. I think Brown is at least at Butler or PG level. There is still question about Ant's ceiling. Is he Baron Davis, Kyrie, DWade, Harden, or MJ? You see Towns hit his ceiling fairly quickly (but I do hope he has another gear). So, it's a sure thing for potential. A bird in a hand is worth two in the field. PG for Davis? PG for Kyrie? PG for DWade?

Ant at 21 is very clearly of the potential of Wade, Irving, maybe more. Hell neither of those guys were playing as good as Ant is now until they were 23 or 24. I don’t know how people still don’t see what Ant is. He has been underrated since the draft.

I see his ceiling is, ironically, is Donovan Mitchell right now. I hope he doesn't turn into Kyrie because I always hated Kyrie's game. Davis made the all star team in his thrid year and fifth year and never lived up to that again. Kyrie made all star in his second year. Potential is risky, therefore, I am willing to trade Ant for anyone who is better than (maybe equal to) Donovan Mitchell. Brown just made NBA second team today so I think he is better than a role player.

[Mattya]

Yes, this where my opinion differ from most people here. I see Brown as someone that is overshadowed by Tatum. Like Harden at OKC with KD. I think Brown is at least at Butler or PG level. There is still question about Ant's ceiling. Is he Baron Davis, Kyrie, DWade, Harden, or MJ? You see Towns hit his ceiling fairly quickly (but I do hope he has another gear). So, it's a sure thing for potential. A bird in a hand is worth two in the field. PG for Davis? PG for Kyrie? PG for DWade?

Ant at 21 is very clearly of the potential of Wade, Irving, maybe more. Hell neither of those guys were playing as good as Ant is now until they were 23 or 24. I don’t know how people still don’t see what Ant is. He has been underrated since the draft.

I see his ceiling is, ironically, is Donovan Mitchell right now. I hope he doesn't turn into Kyrie because I always hated Kyrie's game. Davis made the all star team in his thrid year and fifth year and never lived up to that again. Kyrie made all star in his second year. Potential is risky, therefore, I am willing to trade Ant for anyone who is better than (maybe equal to) Donovan Mitchell. Brown just made NBA second team today so I think he is better than a role player.

Who said Brown was a role player? I said he is a supporting player. Not a foundational piece you can build around like Ant.

Donovan Mitchel didn’t have a season as good as Edwards offensively until he was 24 that’s without mentioning Edwards being a better defender.

I don’t think you realize just how good Edwards is, let alone for his age.

[TimberKat]

Ant at 21 is very clearly of the potential of Wade, Irving, maybe more. Hell neither of those guys were playing as good as Ant is now until they were 23 or 24. I don’t know how people still don’t see what Ant is. He has been underrated since the draft.

I see his ceiling is, ironically, is Donovan Mitchell right now. I hope he doesn't turn into Kyrie because I always hated Kyrie's game. Davis made the all star team in his thrid year and fifth year and never lived up to that again. Kyrie made all star in his second year. Potential is risky, therefore, I am willing to trade Ant for anyone who is better than (maybe equal to) Donovan Mitchell. Brown just made NBA second team today so I think he is better than a role player.

Who said Brown was a role player? I said he is a supporting player. Not a foundational piece you can build around like Ant.

Donovan Mitchel didn’t have a season as good as Edwards offensively until he was 24 that’s without mentioning Edwards being a better defender.

I don’t think you realize just how good Edwards is, let alone for his age.

sorry, my mistake on Brown comment. You are right in that I don't recognize Ant's third year is as good as Mitchell's third year. Yes, Ant is younger and may even has the potential to be better than Mitchell. He is not better than Mitchell now. Again, we are talking about potential, and I don't trust potential. It's an opinion and I am in the minority on this one.

[urinesane]

I see his ceiling is, ironically, is Donovan Mitchell right now. I hope he doesn't turn into Kyrie because I always hated Kyrie's game. Davis made the all star team in his thrid year and fifth year and never lived up to that again. Kyrie made all star in his second year. Potential is risky, therefore, I am willing to trade Ant for anyone who is better than (maybe equal to) Donovan Mitchell. Brown just made NBA second team today so I think he is better than a role player.

Who said Brown was a role player? I said he is a supporting player. Not a foundational piece you can build around like Ant.

Donovan Mitchel didn’t have a season as good as Edwards offensively until he was 24 that’s without mentioning Edwards being a better defender.

I don’t think you realize just how good Edwards is, let alone for his age.

sorry, my mistake on Brown comment. You are right in that I don't recognize Ant's third year is as good as Mitchell's third year. Yes, Ant is younger and may even has the potential to be better than Mitchell. He is not better than Mitchell now. Again, we are talking about potential, and I don't trust potential. It's an opinion and I am in the minority on this one.

I would argue that Ant's 2-way play makes him better than Mitchell right now. He isn't on the same level offensively yet, but he is world's better on the defensive end.

Mitchell's ceiling is Ant.

[Norseman79]

Who said Brown was a role player? I said he is a supporting player. Not a foundational piece you can build around like Ant.

Donovan Mitchel didn’t have a season as good as Edwards offensively until he was 24 that’s without mentioning Edwards being a better defender.

I don’t think you realize just how good Edwards is, let alone for his age.

sorry, my mistake on Brown comment. You are right in that I don't recognize Ant's third year is as good as Mitchell's third year. Yes, Ant is younger and may even has the potential to be better than Mitchell. He is not better than Mitchell now. Again, we are talking about potential, and I don't trust potential. It's an opinion and I am in the minority on this one.

I would argue that Ant's 2-way play makes him better than Mitchell right now. He isn't on the same level offensively yet, but he is world's better on the defensive end.

Mitchell's ceiling is Ant.

People also keep overlooking things like size, charisma, leadership...those traits to me are what vault Ant so high so fast. I agree with you about offense and defense.

[TimberKat]

sorry, my mistake on Brown comment. You are right in that I don't recognize Ant's third year is as good as Mitchell's third year. Yes, Ant is younger and may even has the potential to be better than Mitchell. He is not better than Mitchell now. Again, we are talking about potential, and I don't trust potential. It's an opinion and I am in the minority on this one.

I would argue that Ant's 2-way play makes him better than Mitchell right now. He isn't on the same level offensively yet, but he is world's better on the defensive end.

Mitchell's ceiling is Ant.

People also keep overlooking things like size, charisma, leadership...those traits to me are what vault Ant so high so fast. I agree with you about offense and defense.

Sure, where do you think his on court basketball IQ is at right now? and where do you think he ends up?

[Devilzsidewalk]

I'm trying to imagine how I'd feel if they traded Ant...I think it'd be the last straw for me, I don't know how I could accept it. We just watched him put up 32/5/5 in the playoffs at age 21, and he's shown he can be a lockdown on-ball defender.

To me, the future is clearly Ant and Jaden. The team should have every intention of those guys spending the next 10+ years together. I'd also keep Moore and Minott because not like they're going to get anything in return anyways, so might as well see what happens with their development.

Other than that, I think everything else should be open to negotiation, especially GoKAT. I think you could surround Ant and Jaden with a roster of solid 2 way players like a KCP level, and still be at least a play-in or low seed contender, so none of the veterans should be a sacred elephant.

I don't want to fall into the same trap as the Cavs initially w/ Lebron, and the Pelicans w/ AD, which was to desperately try to bring in win-now players to impress your star at the expense of the future. We've kinda already done that, but we have an opportunity to undo some of the damage this offseason. What seems to end up happening is the team toiling around the fringes of playoff success, then as that first extension is wrapping up, now you have a declining supporting cast and your star sees a bleak future in front of them.

[Norseman79]

I would argue that Ant's 2-way play makes him better than Mitchell right now. He isn't on the same level offensively yet, but he is world's better on the defensive end.

Mitchell's ceiling is Ant.

People also keep overlooking things like size, charisma, leadership...those traits to me are what vault Ant so high so fast. I agree with you about offense and defense.

Sure, where do you think his on court basketball IQ is at right now? and where do you think he ends up?

Right now, I think his basketball IQ is actually quite high on both ends of the court. He's learning and figuring out what he can get away with. Let's be honest, he had one year of college basketball? So realistically speaking he would now be the equivalent of a 4-year college player coming out. Where do I see it ending up, once he consistently gets the whistle, I can see him being somebody who will use an inside out type of game and live at the free throw line. He started finding teammates better this year. So offensively, I think next year depending on the team around him we will see him transcend even higher. Now let's talk defense, his defensive IQ is way higher than people give credit. Yeah he takes place off, and he gambles, but he's learning what he can get away with and how to and when to go for things. Look at some of the blocks and steals this year, those would not have been made in the past, so he is evolving on that end of the court also. I completely see him as a top six shooting guard in the NBA right now, right now. As that evolution continues to grow and he starts to get the whistle he deserves, he could easily be the best two guard in the NBA by the end of the year next year.

[shrink]

To be honest, I was surprised to see Ant get some votes for All Defense this year. I think he can get there eventually, but it’s premature.

To me, there are two parts to defense - individual defense and team defense. In the first part, he excels, with the physical tools to be an elite one-on-one defender. But in the team concept, I regularly see him forget his coverages and lose his man. Sometimes you see his teammates trying to help, pointing at the guy for Ant to go cover.

Now, I am quite optimistic that Ant can make a future All Defense team, maybe as soon as next year. You can’t teach that size and speed, so he has a natural advantage. What you CAN teach is team concept defense. As Norseman points out, Ant only had one year of college ball, and it was on a pretty poor team. And on top of this, his high school career was abbreviated a year, and he wasn’t specifically focused on basketball either. But I am optimistic because we’ve seen that one of Ant’s great strengths is that he is a sponge, always trying to learn, always listening to the vets. I think he can be elite on both sides of the ball.

[shrink]

There is a non-zero chance Chris Paul gets waived from the Suns. Phoenix is about to get very expensive, and CP3 is only guaranteed $15.8 of his $30.8 mil salary next year.

If he wanted to come here, would you offer him the MLE? Could two old star PG’s be healthy enough to cover the job? I assume with Paul’s experience throwing lobs to DeAndre Jordan, he would be the second best player in the league knowing how to immediately play with Gobert. Do you think his .. leadership style .. would fly on the Wolves? Would this be a plus or minus for Ant?

[TimberKat]

There is a non-zero chance Chris Paul gets waived from the Suns. Phoenix is about to get very expensive, and CP3 is only guaranteed $15.8 of his $30.8 mil salary next year.

If he wanted to come here, would you offer him the MLE? Could two old star PG’s be healthy enough to cover the job? I assume with Paul’s experience throwing lobs to DeAndre Jordan, he would be the second best player in the league knowing how to immediately play with Gobert. Do you think his .. leadership style .. would fly on the Wolves? Would this be a plus or minus for Ant?

That is age discrimination. I am sure he will be better than JMcL and Rivers. He still can play dirty. Maybe he could be that voice in the locker room to keep everyone focused.

[Note30]

There is a non-zero chance Chris Paul gets waived from the Suns. Phoenix is about to get very expensive, and CP3 is only guaranteed $15.8 of his $30.8 mil salary next year.

If he wanted to come here, would you offer him the MLE? Could two old star PG’s be healthy enough to cover the job? I assume with Paul’s experience throwing lobs to DeAndre Jordan, he would be the second best player in the league knowing how to immediately play with Gobert. Do you think his .. leadership style .. would fly on the Wolves? Would this be a plus or minus for Ant?

Unequivocally, CP is the highest BBIQ player in the game today after LeBron. I'd start him over Conley. It would be a huge plus, CP is pretty harsh but he's smart and understands the game better than everyone. There's a reason why despite his physical declines he's still relevant.

There's no question. If he says jump we should say how high. He's indisputably valuable. I don't think he's worth $44 mill but if he was willing to take an MLE there isn't anyone I could think of that would be better in the current market.

But yeah zero chance that happens

[wolves_89]

To be honest, I was surprised to see Ant get some votes for All Defense this year. I think he can get there eventually, but it’s premature.

To me, there are two parts to defense - individual defense and team defense. In the first part, he excels, with the physical tools to be an elite one-on-one defender. But in the team concept, I regularly see him forget his coverages and lose his man. Sometimes you see his teammates trying to help, pointing at the guy for Ant to go cover.

Now, I am quite optimistic that Ant can make a future All Defense team, maybe as soon as next year. You can’t teach that size and speed, so he has a natural advantage. What you CAN teach is team concept defense. As Norseman points out, Ant only had one year of college ball, and it was on a pretty poor team. And on top of this, his high school career was abbreviated a year, and he wasn’t specifically focused on basketball either. But I am optimistic because we’ve seen that one of Ant’s great strengths is that he is a sponge, always trying to learn, always listening to the vets. I think he can be elite on both sides of the ball.

I'm less optimistic on Ant making an All defense team. I think Ant can be a truly elite defender for 3-4 minute stretches, but I'm skeptical that he can maintain that level of effort for extended periods during games. My main concern is that with the offensive load Ant has to carry, he just won't have the energy. I envision Ant's future defensive role as being a consistently above average defender who elevates his defensive intensity during critical stretches of a game.

[Slim Tubby]

To be honest, I was surprised to see Ant get some votes for All Defense this year. I think he can get there eventually, but it’s premature.

To me, there are two parts to defense - individual defense and team defense. In the first part, he excels, with the physical tools to be an elite one-on-one defender. But in the team concept, I regularly see him forget his coverages and lose his man. Sometimes you see his teammates trying to help, pointing at the guy for Ant to go cover.

I'm less optimistic on Ant making an All defense team. I think Ant can be a truly elite defender for 3-4 minute stretches, but I'm skeptical that he can maintain that level effort for extended periods during games. My main concern is that with the offensive load Ant has to carry, he just won't have the energy. I envision Ant's future defensive role as being a consistently above average defender who elevates his defensive intensity during critical stretches of a game.

Excellent post...well thought out and rational.

[Klomp]

To be honest, I was surprised to see Ant get some votes for All Defense this year. I think he can get there eventually, but it’s premature.

To me, there are two parts to defense - individual defense and team defense. In the first part, he excels, with the physical tools to be an elite one-on-one defender. But in the team concept, I regularly see him forget his coverages and lose his man. Sometimes you see his teammates trying to help, pointing at the guy for Ant to go cover.

Now, I am quite optimistic that Ant can make a future All Defense team, maybe as soon as next year. You can’t teach that size and speed, so he has a natural advantage. What you CAN teach is team concept defense. As Norseman points out, Ant only had one year of college ball, and it was on a pretty poor team. And on top of this, his high school career was abbreviated a year, and he wasn’t specifically focused on basketball either. But I am optimistic because we’ve seen that one of Ant’s great strengths is that he is a sponge, always trying to learn, always listening to the vets. I think he can be elite on both sides of the ball.

I'm less optimistic on Ant making an All defense team. I think Ant can be a truly elite defender for 3-4 minute stretches, but I'm skeptical that he can maintain that level effort for extended periods during games. My main concern is that with the offensive load Ant has to carry, he just won't have the energy. I envision Ant's future defensive role as being a consistently above average defender who elevates his defensive intensity during critical stretches of a game.

I think it's important to remember that perception and reality don't always have to line up.

Ant's defensive perception is growing, thanks in large part to his playlist of highlight reel defensive plays growing rapidly. Highlights force a voter to look deeper at the numbers. Ant's defensive numbers have improved every season. He averaged 1.8 spg and 2.0 bpg in the Nuggets series. That's kind of a big deal.

Having Jaden is huge for Ant because Ant doesn't have to guard the opponent's top wing on every possession. Heck, even Conley or now NAW can give Ant breathers from time to time.

[Domejandro]

I think it's important to remember that perception and reality don't always have to line up.

Ant's defensive perception is growing, thanks in large part to his playlist of highlight reel defensive plays growing rapidly. Highlights force a voter to look deeper at the numbers. Ant's defensive numbers have improved every season. He averaged 1.8 spg and 2.0 bpg in the Nuggets series. That's kind of a big deal.

A great example of this is Kobe Bryant making the All-Defense Teams twelve times (First Team nine times!). There is no world where he deserves to be tied for the most First Team selections in NBA History, but the narrative pushed him forward.

I think that will be a lot more difficult for Anthony Edwards in a more analytics-driven era, but I can see a pathway.

[minimus]

Guys, what do you think about Donte DiVincenzo as comboguard starting next to Edwards after one year under Conley mentorship program? Let me explain my idea. We give DDV full MLE 44/4, keep Conley and resign Naz for 50/4 to trade him later. Resign NAW 21/3. Our rotation will look like this

Gobert/Towns/Garza
Towns/Anderson/Minott
McDaniels/TP/Moore
Edwards/NAW/DDV
Conley/DDV/JMac

After 2023-24 season:

Gobert/Towns/Garza
Towns/Minott
McDaniels/Moore
Edwards/NAW/
DDV/???

[shangrila]

I've been thinking a lot about a Julius Randle-KAT swap lately. So hear me out on this;

1. Statistically they're not that far apart. Randle has lower efficiency (58 vs 62TS%) and lower assist numbers ( 5.7 vs 6.9 per 100 possessions) but higher defensive rebounding stats (both advanced and regular), lower turnovers and a higher 3pt Attempt Rate (although slightly lower efficiency, 34 vs 36.5%). He also has a higher FT rate.

2. He's significantly cheaper. He's got 3 more years at roughly 25.5, 27.5 and a PO at 29.5mil (it's a given he'll decline that last year given the new CBA coming into effect). Compare that to KAT who's got 36mil and then the supermax kicks in with 50mil heading north to 60mil by the end. I think even KAT's biggest fans would admit he's not actually worth that much so even if he's a better player than Randle the players we could afford with the difference in their salaries would likely exceed the difference.

3. In theory we could get more than just Randle. I doubt it's players, since the Knicks want to win, but we should be able to get a 1st or 2 included to help restock after the Gobert trade. Considering the drop in on court talent would be minimal that's a smart move.

4. I know some of you think KAT is going to gracefully exit stage as Edwards takes over the team. I don't think that's a guarantee and so moving KAT for someone who doesn't have this idea that the Wolves are "their team" could cut off chemistry issues before they begin.