Butler has requested a trade (Part II)

[KGdaBom]

My biggest question is whether the Wolves will start the clock on Butler. So far they've used the justification that he's rehabbing his hand, but that was a thin excuse at best and is likely not sustainable. If the Wolves tell Butler he has to report it starts a 30 day countdown, which means if Butler is still sitting out at the end of the 30 days he loses the ability to be a fee agent next off-season. I'm really curious to see how Thibs will play this over the next week.

We said we were giving him a week. It's been a week. Butler's clock needs to start now.

[KGdaBom]

I think the Wolves have lost a great opportunity by waiting so long before accepting JB won't be playing in Minnesota beyond next spring, if at all. If reports that Butler wanted out back in July were true, they should have made a move then and taken advantage of a more open market. And even if they weren't 100% accurate, you had to see it coming. Now not only there are less options on the table with almost every team operating above the cap, they also have to deal with the urgency of not going into the season in this state. And it's just gonna get worse with every passing week and teams shifting their sights to the regular season and the trade deadline or next summer's free agency.

Minnesota should be smart about this and understand that they're going to lose Butler for nothing and still be hamstrung financially next summer. If they can use Butler's trade to get rid of Gorgui and get an upgrade at PG such as Dragic, or just another average PG like Teague with a cheaper contract, they should absolutely do it, and the sooner the better. I don't care if there's not some great talent coming back in the trade (which isn't happening anyway), that doesn't mean you have to come out empty-handed. Clear the air in the locker room and give the team a chance to jell and fight for the playoffs while improving your salary situation and giving guys like Wiggins and KAT more room to improve. You never know how the season might turn out, and what options you may have next summer with a smaller payroll and a different look on some players.

I'd rather have one year of Butler with the chance of resigning him next year than accept some crappy offer like you are suggesting. Butler says he wants to be traded, but my understanding is that whoever has his Bird rights next year can sign him for 49 million more than any other team. I'm totally fine with us doing that and I really doubt he's going to flush $49 million down the toilet. He's BLUFFING.

[TruthSerum]

My biggest question is whether the Wolves will start the clock on Butler. So far they've used the justification that he's rehabbing his hand, but that was a thin excuse at best and is likely not sustainable. If the Wolves tell Butler he has to report it starts a 30 day countdown, which means if Butler is still sitting out at the end of the 30 days he loses the ability to be a fee agent next off-season. I'm really curious to see how Thibs will play this over the next week.

There's nothing allowing this in the CBA, as far as I can tell. Closest I can find is about the Fitness to Play Panel, something I know and understand very little about.

Article XI, Section 3.
Withholding Services.

Little known rule because the NBA doesn't really doesn't have hold out problems. I only first heard about it after the Kawhi trade when the 'what ifs' started circulating.

[TruthSerum]

My biggest question is whether the Wolves will start the clock on Butler. So far they've used the justification that he's rehabbing his hand, but that was a thin excuse at best and is likely not sustainable. If the Wolves tell Butler he has to report it starts a 30 day countdown, which means if Butler is still sitting out at the end of the 30 days he loses the ability to be a fee agent next off-season. I'm really curious to see how Thibs will play this over the next week.

There's nothing allowing this in the CBA, as far as I can tell. Closest I can find is about the Fitness to Play Panel, something I know and understand very little about.

Article XI, Section 3.
Withholding Services.

Little known rule because the NBA doesn't really doesn't have hold out problems. I only first heard about it after the Kawhi trade when the 'what ifs' started circulating.

Took a screener.

[Klomp]

My biggest question is whether the Wolves will start the clock on Butler. So far they've used the justification that he's rehabbing his hand, but that was a thin excuse at best and is likely not sustainable. If the Wolves tell Butler he has to report it starts a 30 day countdown, which means if Butler is still sitting out at the end of the 30 days he loses the ability to be a fee agent next off-season. I'm really curious to see how Thibs will play this over the next week.

There's nothing allowing this in the CBA, as far as I can tell. Closest I can find is about the Fitness to Play Panel, something I know and understand very little about.

Article XI, Section 3.
Withholding Services.

Little known rule because the NBA doesn't really doesn't have hold out problems. I only first heard about it after the Kawhi trade when the 'what ifs' started circulating.

Interesting that Coon doesn't include it in his FAQ. Thanks!

A player who withholds playing services called for by a Player Contract for more than thirty (30) days after the start of the last Season covered by his Player Contract shall be deemed not to have “complet[ed] his Player Contract by rendering the playing services called for thereunder.” Accordingly, such a player shall not be a Veteran Free Agent and shall not be entitled to negotiate or sign a Player Contract with any other professional basketball team unless and until the Team for which the player last played expressly agrees otherwise.

[Macwolf527]

I think the Wolves have lost a great opportunity by waiting so long before accepting JB won't be playing in Minnesota beyond next spring, if at all. If reports that Butler wanted out back in July were true, they should have made a move then and taken advantage of a more open market. And even if they weren't 100% accurate, you had to see it coming. Now not only there are less options on the table with almost every team operating above the cap, they also have to deal with the urgency of not going into the season in this state. And it's just gonna get worse with every passing week and teams shifting their sights to the regular season and the trade deadline or next summer's free agency.

Minnesota should be smart about this and understand that they're going to lose Butler for nothing and still be hamstrung financially next summer. If they can use Butler's trade to get rid of Gorgui and get an upgrade at PG such as Dragic, or just another average PG like Teague with a cheaper contract, they should absolutely do it, and the sooner the better. I don't care if there's not some great talent coming back in the trade (which isn't happening anyway), that doesn't mean you have to come out empty-handed. Clear the air in the locker room and give the team a chance to jell and fight for the playoffs while improving your salary situation and giving guys like Wiggins and KAT more room to improve. You never know how the season might turn out, and what options you may have next summer with a smaller payroll and a different look on some players.

I'd rather have one year of Butler with the chance of resigning him next year than accept some crappy offer like you are suggesting. Butler says he wants to be traded, but my understanding is that whoever has his Bird rights next year can sign him for 49 million more than any other team. I'm totally fine with us doing that and I really doubt he's going to flush $49 million down the toilet. He's BLUFFING.

KGd, you said a mouthful. People are operating like Minnesota should just take anything and be satisfied. Jimmy wants the additional $50 million and teams want Jimmy, so somebody will pony up a fair trade. I keep hearing that we lose leverage as time passes. I disagree. I believe we gain more leverage and more options as time passes. Somebody recently posted a list showing each team's cap space next offseason. It's not as plentiful as most people thought and it's definitely will not be easy to sign multiple max players, because you still have to resign or release the cap hold on your own players and that will reduce the depth of your team.

In addition, teams will not be looking to sign a 29 year max player without unloading some contracts to make space. As long as we have Jimmy's bird rights, we will remain in prime possession, now, past the deadline and into the off-season. Just because teams like New York, Brooklyn and LA Clippers have the room to sign him outright, does not stop other teams from putting together a sign and trade package for Jimmy. And Jimmy is more likely to play ball if the trade nets him the extra $50 million. If Jimmy plays for the Wolves this year, it stands to reason he will move beyond his issues with the team, thus re-opening the door for us to resign him in the offseason. The Wolves hold all the cards.

[minimus]

When I wrote that I was more referring to the last 5 minutes of a game. Thats when the usage for KAt went down when it matters most. I saw a great article this but can't remember where I saw it. It was a big indictment on Thibs as he's calling the plays. I'll look for the piece.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2796770-clutch-moments-defined-jimmy-butler-and-karl-anthony-towns-relationship

One of many articles.

1) Butler is not as good as he was in clutch
2) He does not pass the ball to KAT

[KGdaBom]

When I wrote that I was more referring to the last 5 minutes of a game. Thats when the usage for KAt went down when it matters most. I saw a great article this but can't remember where I saw it. It was a big indictment on Thibs as he's calling the plays. I'll look for the piece.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2796770-clutch-moments-defined-jimmy-butler-and-karl-anthony-towns-relationship

One of many articles.

1) Butler is not as good as he was in clutch
2) He does not pass the ball to KAT

He must have been pretty clutch. We won 16 more games.

[AirP.]

I'd rather have one year of Butler with the chance of resigning him next year than accept some crappy offer like you are suggesting. Butler says he wants to be traded, but my understanding is that whoever has his Bird rights next year can sign him for 49 million more than any other team. I'm totally fine with us doing that and I really doubt he's going to flush $49 million down the toilet. He's BLUFFING.

So let's talk about if Minnesota keeps Butler and then he walks. That's 20 million off the cap.
So(approximately)...
Towns 27
Wiggins 27
Teague 19
Dieng 16
Patton 3
Okogie 2.5
Nunnally 1.5
KBD - 1.4
- 98 million for 8 players.
- 82 million for 7 players if Dieng is sent out for nothing in return.
- 79 million for 7 players if Teague doesn't pick up his option (he may be able to get 1 more long term contract from someone)
- 63 million of Teague opts out and Dieng is moved.

Tyus (QO)
Rose FA
Tolliver FA
Gibson FA
Deng FA
Butler FA - Minnesota can offer the most by far if they want.

There are some ifs, if Patton comes back healthy and does fine, if Okogie and KBD develop and/or resign Tyus the team is still solid moving forward even with losing an all-nba player, you just have to sign low priced roleplayers that fit with your core players.

If Butler is retained, the team is noticeably stronger but will need to find some good fits near league minimums and rookie scale contracts.

[minimus]

When I wrote that I was more referring to the last 5 minutes of a game. Thats when the usage for KAt went down when it matters most. I saw a great article this but can't remember where I saw it. It was a big indictment on Thibs as he's calling the plays. I'll look for the piece.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2796770-clutch-moments-defined-jimmy-butler-and-karl-anthony-towns-relationship

One of many articles.

1) Butler is not as good as he was in clutch
2) He does not pass the ball to KAT

He must have been pretty clutch. We won 16 more games.

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/9hgvs0/tom_habestroh_clutch_moments_defined_jimmy_butler/
http://www.startribune.com/how-jimmy-butler-s-shoot-the-ball-mentality-plays-out-for-timberwolves-in-the-clutch/474744513/

Interesting read, ha? Also I dont attribute "16 more wins" staff only to Butler. Heck, even JC and AW won couple of games in the clutch.

[minimus]

I'd rather have one year of Butler with the chance of resigning him next year than accept some crappy offer like you are suggesting. Butler says he wants to be traded, but my understanding is that whoever has his Bird rights next year can sign him for 49 million more than any other team. I'm totally fine with us doing that and I really doubt he's going to flush $49 million down the toilet. He's BLUFFING.

So let's talk about if Minnesota keeps Butler and then he walks. That's 20 million off the cap.
So(approximately)...
Towns 27
Wiggins 27
Teague 19
Dieng 16
Patton 3
Okogie 2.5
Nunnally 1.5
KBD - 1.4
- 98 million for 8 players.
- 82 million for 7 players if Dieng is sent out for nothing in return.
- 79 million for 7 players if Teague doesn't pick up his option (he may be able to get 1 more long term contract from someone)
- 63 million of Teague opts out and Dieng is moved.

Tyus (QO)
Rose FA
Tolliver FA
Gibson FA
Deng FA
Butler FA - Minnesota can offer the most by far if they want.

There are some ifs, if Patton comes back healthy and does fine, if Okogie and KBD develop and/or resign Tyus the team is still solid moving forward even with losing an all-nba player, you just have to sign low priced roleplayers that fit with your core players.

I really hope we can at least dump Dieng contract for expirings and trade Jimmy without gettting back bad contracts. Also I have faith in KBD and Okogie as they can save Thibs good name!

[AirP.]

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2796770-clutch-moments-defined-jimmy-butler-and-karl-anthony-towns-relationship

One of many articles.

1) Butler is not as good as he was in clutch
2) He does not pass the ball to KAT

He must have been pretty clutch. We won 16 more games.

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/9hgvs0/tom_habestroh_clutch_moments_defined_jimmy_butler/
http://www.startribune.com/how-jimmy-butler-s-shoot-the-ball-mentality-plays-out-for-timberwolves-in-the-clutch/474744513/

Interesting read, ha? Also I dont attribute "16 more wins" staff only to Butler. Heck, even JC and AW won couple of games in the clutch.

Butler has been good/incredible in the clutch the 2 previous seasons before joining Minnesota, there's actually history there to understand why he's a goto guy while in his prime.

Also, I'm not sure the calculations are right at least with the reddit posts, I know the TS% are wrong. Just eyeballing Towns, how do you have a higher eFG% higher then TS% by over .100 when he shot 83% from the line?

[minimus]

He must have been pretty clutch. We won 16 more games.

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/9hgvs0/tom_habestroh_clutch_moments_defined_jimmy_butler/
http://www.startribune.com/how-jimmy-butler-s-shoot-the-ball-mentality-plays-out-for-timberwolves-in-the-clutch/474744513/

Interesting read, ha? Also I dont attribute "16 more wins" staff only to Butler. Heck, even JC and AW won couple of games in the clutch.

Butler has been good/incredible in the clutch the 2 previous seasons before joining Minnesota, there's actually history there to understand why.

Also, I'm not sure the calculations are right at least with the reddit posts, I know the TS% are wrong. Just eyeballing Towns, how do you have a higher eFG% higher then TS% by over .100 when he shot 83% from the line?

1) I am just saying that it is not only Butler's greatness which lead us to "16 more wins". Also his ISO ball cost us a few win as well when he shot bad, contested shot. Other guys also contributed
2) he is still good in clutch, but not as good as he was. maybe it is injury affected him
3) his defense was stellar

[TaylorTag]

what do you guys think of this trade? http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y7pep6we

[AirP.]

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/9hgvs0/tom_habestroh_clutch_moments_defined_jimmy_butler/
http://www.startribune.com/how-jimmy-butler-s-shoot-the-ball-mentality-plays-out-for-timberwolves-in-the-clutch/474744513/

Interesting read, ha? Also I dont attribute "16 more wins" staff only to Butler. Heck, even JC and AW won couple of games in the clutch.

Butler has been good/incredible in the clutch the 2 previous seasons before joining Minnesota, there's actually history there to understand why.

Also, I'm not sure the calculations are right at least with the reddit posts, I know the TS% are wrong. Just eyeballing Towns, how do you have a higher eFG% higher then TS% by over .100 when he shot 83% from the line?

1) I am just saying that it is not only Butler's greatness which lead us to "16 more wins". Also his ISO ball cost us a few win as well when he shot bad, contested shot. Other guys also contributed
2) he is still good in clutch, but not as good as he was. maybe it is injury affected him
3) his defense was stellar

1. Sure, I think it was defense overall which he was a huge part of it, Gibson a big part in that too.
2. He had a down year in the clutch last year, his previous 2 years were much better and his last season with Chicago he may have been the 2nd best clutch player.
3. Of course. In the 2 years I've watched most of Minnesota's games, I've never seen so many "easy" scores by the other team because of players just not going to the right places or not lookin interested in playing defense at all. I've seen individual players that bad, but not multiple ones on the court like Minnesota has been. I still think Towns will be fine as he learns through repetition but a motor, that's just an individual willing to give effort.

Defense is what this team needs, Okogie on that side of the ball could be huge for this franchise.

I will point this out again... Butler, Gibson and Teague all had their worst drtg last year in Minnesota, that has to be a huge indication that the other guys aren't pulling their weight, both starters and the bench(the bench was just horrible last year).

[Loyal[]Wolf]

Read on Twitter

[minimus]

Defense is what this team needs, Okogie on that side of the ball could be huge for this franchise.

I will point this out again... Butler, Gibson and Teague all had their worst drtg last year in Minnesota, that has to be a huge indication that the other guys aren't pulling their weight, both starters and the bench(the bench was just horrible last year).

I think it is also true that disconnection and bad chemistry in offense leads to bad defense. At least that was my experience when I played basketball. It is not about scoring or creating "equal opportunities", you can just moving the ball, make everyone touch the ball, settings screens/back screens. So ISO ball hurts both defense and offense. But that is my opinion.

[minimus]

what do you guys think of this trade? http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y7pep6we

I like it. Although I preferr resign Tyus and get FRP instead of Shai. Is Shai a really good prospect?

[TaylorTag]

what do you guys think of this trade? http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y7pep6we

I like it. Although I preferr resign Tyus and get FRP instead of Shai. Is Shai a really good prospect?

Yeah, there's speculation that the Clippers would not want to give him up. I think Shai would be a really good fit with Wiggins, Okogie and Towns... I like Tyus Jones a lot, but we don't know if we can even afford him next offseason, so sending him to the Clippers as a good asset may help seal the trade

[mplsfonz23]

Read on Twitter

I just find it funny why JB is still in town, and why he is using the facilities. That has to be odd for some of the Wolves staff.