Trade Talk (Part Nine) (READ FIRST POST)

[minimus]

Again, you can call me crazy, but I do believe that Prince and top5 protected FRP for Favors and Dort could be the most creative way to improve this roster. Let me explain. Our current identify is built around:
1) offensive skills of Towns, Russell and Edwards
2) elite PoA defense of Beverly
3) never ending hustle of Vanderbilt
4) Beasley shooting

Given Beverly injury history I would like to have another elite PoA defender. Dort might be the best candidate because of his contract. It looks like he has same dog mentality to go under opponent skin on every possession. Favors is just a big body in the paint, who can commit a hard foul to stop opponent from scoring.

Towns/Reid/Favors
Vando/MCD/Knight
Edwards/Layman/Dort
Beverly/Beasley/Okogie
DLo/JMac/Nowell + Bolmaro

Another scenario, but within same idea: Okogie, Layman and two SRPs for D'Anthony Melton

What. Dude your traded for Favors and dort, Dort would definitely be the backup over Layman.

Problem is we need another playmaker and rebounder. Dort is great but he's just an upgraded Okogie, with more upside. Not exactly what we need.

Yeah, Dort would be 7th man in rotation after Beasley. If Beverly misses game, than Dort would start. Yes, we need a rebounder, the PHI game is a clear example. But our current identity is build around a very aggressive defense. Yes, is a “just” upgrade over Okogie, but just imagine that against PHI we could play Dort in some situations instead of MCD or Prince. Dort is not a reliable shooter, but he is much better slasher than Okogie.

[minimus]

We’ve talked about Daniel Theis before, but right now, his trade value is probably at its cheapest. The Rockets are giving him DNP-CD’s, he doesn’t fit their timeline (29, on the books for four years), and even one of HOU’s most ardent fans on the trade board has said they’d trade him for an expiring. They are probably concerned about having him on their books.

I definitely see how Theis could help our size-starved team. He is good, not great, at our wide variety of big man needs. He’s smart, he has some bulk (245), he needs to be guarded on an open three, he can rebound, and he’s a decent help defender. He is certainly an “above average” big man.

That said, his contract is concerning. It’s not unreasonable for his talent ($9 mil a year for four years). The problems are it’s length, and his position. Most teams, even contenders, are going cheap for their second big - even if he is a starter. Saving money there gives them more flexibility to pay for a big wing, or cover for overpays elsewhere on the team. The question isn’t whether Theis is better than a cheap big, but whether he is “enough” better to devote the extra $5 mil a year into it?

That answer may be yes. Alternative bigs are probably going to be one-way players, or miss in at least one of the categories we need out on the floor, as a compliment to KAT. Does the rise of Vando allow us to go for a cheaper back up? I don’t know.

If Theis is someone we’d give expirings for, Okogie + Layman would probably do it. Would you grab Theis for that price?

Theis can’t justify his contract with HOU, he has been playing winning basketball in BOS but right now it is not what HOU need. However, with MIN he might outperform his contract by far. I am not speaking about individual stats, because he is opposite of making highlights plays, but he makes all the dirty work screening, rebounding, boxing out etc. Just think about it: his elite skill is screen and seal, nothing fancy, but it is basically TWO hustle plays within ONE action. Imagine how many open layups could Edwards get playing with Theis? Just like Tatum and other got in BOS.

Watch on YouTube

[Neeva]

Theis and that contract sounds like a bad idea that the wolves would regret in a season. I would go for someone like Boucher or Brandon Clarke or PJ Washington instead.

[Note30]

Theis and that contract sounds like a bad idea that the wolves would regret in a season. I would go for someone like Boucher or Brandon Clarke or PJ Washington instead.

Depends, if we can send out Okogie, Layman, JMac and Prince and a haul of second round picks (5) plus maybe a FRP protected (1-14)

Then we could roll in
Gordon (expiring next year, 2023 NG)
Theis
JaeSean Tate

Full power we could roll with

DLo-Ant-Tate-Vando-KAT
Bev-Beas-Gordon-Theis-Reid
Bolmaro, McDaniels

Would set us up nice for a major trade.

Depending on whether we can resign Bev, Gordon is pretty solid insurance, and Tate had the same defensive intensity has Bev and McDaniels so we could switch between Tate, McD, Gordon depending on what we need.

[Note30]

Again, you can call me crazy, but I do believe that Prince and top5 protected FRP for Favors and Dort could be the most creative way to improve this roster. Let me explain. Our current identify is built around:
1) offensive skills of Towns, Russell and Edwards
2) elite PoA defense of Beverly
3) never ending hustle of Vanderbilt
4) Beasley shooting

Given Beverly injury history I would like to have another elite PoA defender. Dort might be the best candidate because of his contract. It looks like he has same dog mentality to go under opponent skin on every possession. Favors is just a big body in the paint, who can commit a hard foul to stop opponent from scoring.

Towns/Reid/Favors
Vando/MCD/Knight
Edwards/Layman/Dort
Beverly/Beasley/Okogie
DLo/JMac/Nowell + Bolmaro

Another scenario, but within same idea: Okogie, Layman and two SRPs for D'Anthony Melton

What. Dude your traded for Favors and dort, Dort would definitely be the backup over Layman.

Problem is we need another playmaker and rebounder. Dort is great but he's just an upgraded Okogie, with more upside. Not exactly what we need.

Yeah, Dort would be 7th man in rotation after Beasley. If Beverly misses game, than Dort would start. Yes, we need a rebounder, the PHI game is a clear example. But our current identity is build around a very aggressive defense. Yes, is a “just” upgrade over Okogie, but just imagine that against PHI we could play Dort in some situations instead of MCD or Prince. Dort is not a reliable shooter, but he is much better slasher than Okogie.

I think the trade right above this for Gordon, Tate, Theis could be just as good.

The concept would involve more money but Gordon is a better playmaker than almost anyone off the bench we currently have.

Tate being the replacement for Dort and Theis for Favors

[winforlose]

Dane Moore podcast talks about what I have been saying. If the Wolves can find a way to counter the small guarding KAT and the big guarding the lane and doubling, the Wolves can truly improve their offense. My solution is to get another big who demands to be guarded by a big.

[winforlose]

Is there any player anyone would trade 2 first and some second for? I was having an argument with my brother about this, and he felt strongly that one pick lotto protected is all we can afford. I disagree. I look at the Nets, Clippers, Lakers, and I see teams that bought talent to fill their gaps and go for broke. I wonder if anyone wants to weigh in, can literally suggest any player but Simmons.

[Note30]

Is there any player anyone would trade 2 first and some second for? I was having an argument with my brother about this, and he felt strongly that one pick lotto protected is all we can afford. I disagree. I look at the Nets, Clippers, Lakers, and I see teams that bought talent to fill their gaps and go for broke. I wonder if anyone wants to weigh in, can literally suggest any player but Simmons.

I think combos are more likely 2 players for 2 picks

Single Players:
Jaylen Brown
Jayson Tatum
Damian Lillard
Bam Adebayo

Combos:
Murray+Poetl+Johnson
Brogdon+Turner
Haliburton+Holmes
Robinson+Herro
Vanvleet+Barnes

[old school 34]

We’ve talked about Daniel Theis before, but right now, his trade value is probably at its cheapest. The Rockets are giving him DNP-CD’s, he doesn’t fit their timeline (29, on the books for four years), and even one of HOU’s most ardent fans on the trade board has said they’d trade him for an expiring. They are probably concerned about having him on their books.

I definitely see how Theis could help our size-starved team. He is good, not great, at our wide variety of big man needs. He’s smart, he has some bulk (245), he needs to be guarded on an open three, he can rebound, and he’s a decent help defender. He is certainly an “above average” big man.

That said, his contract is concerning. It’s not unreasonable for his talent ($9 mil a year for four years). The problems are it’s length, and his position. Most teams, even contenders, are going cheap for their second big - even if he is a starter. Saving money there gives them more flexibility to pay for a big wing, or cover for overpays elsewhere on the team. The question isn’t whether Theis is better than a cheap big, but whether he is “enough” better to devote the extra $5 mil a year into it?

That answer may be yes. Alternative bigs are probably going to be one-way players, or miss in at least one of the categories we need out on the floor, as a compliment to KAT. Does the rise of Vando allow us to go for a cheaper back up? I don’t know.

If Theis is someone we’d give expirings for, Okogie + Layman would probably do it. Would you grab Theis for that price?

Theis can’t justify his contract with HOU, he has been playing winning basketball in BOS but right now it is not what HOU need. However, with MIN he might outperform his contract by far. I am not speaking about individual stats, because he is opposite of making highlights plays, but he makes all the dirty work screening, rebounding, boxing out etc. Just think about it: his elite skill is screen and seal, nothing fancy, but it is basically TWO hustle plays within ONE action. Imagine how many open layups could Edwards get playing with Theis? Just like Tatum and other got in BOS.

Watch on YouTube

Theis trade is interesting &/or a player of his ilk & while I think the market is still a month out (anything sooner most likely gets leveraged into an overpay)...which of course becomes what none of us want to hear...but it is better for us to remain patient (this latest stretch has bought us some time)....& now giving us a little Bolmaro run will help with better knowing how best to continue craft the roster. I'd like to see a little Brandon Knight run as well...he doesn't give you vet presence, but can he give you half of Theis production on say a 2-way this year & then say...a V8 type deal after next season? Does Theis get you significantly further than BK?

Sent from my SM-G973U using RealGM mobile app

[minimus]

Dane Moore podcast talks about what I have been saying. If the Wolves can find a way to counter the small guarding KAT and the big guarding the lane and doubling, the Wolves can truly improve their offense. My solution is to get another big who demands to be guarded by a big.

I would not invest in post (back-to-the-basket) player, unless he is elite in the post AND good at passing the ball. I also believe that an elite rim runner will make us so much better. We need to put constantly pressure at rim, at the moment only Edwards can challenge bigmen at rim.

[winforlose]

Dane Moore podcast talks about what I have been saying. If the Wolves can find a way to counter the small guarding KAT and the big guarding the lane and doubling, the Wolves can truly improve their offense. My solution is to get another big who demands to be guarded by a big.

I would not invest in post (back-to-the-basket) player, unless he is elite in the post AND good at passing the ball. I also believe that an elite rim runner will make us so much better. We need to put constantly pressure at rim, at the moment only Edwards can challenge bigmen at rim.

1. To be fair KAT and Dlo have been pretty good off the dribble this season. Dlo is getting to the line and has created some dump off opportunities (mostly to KAT but some to V8 as well.) Nowell and Leo are also guys who can create off the dribble if given minutes which it looks like Leo will. Finally Pat Bev also was doing some of this and will again. It’s not that I disagree with you (I really do agree with you,) but it’s more about the defense of a C guarding the lane then individual performance of our roster. Chicken and egg problem that resolves by forcing a big on a legit PF and moving V8 to SF.

2. Back to the basket isn’t super common right now. Reid is kinda B2B but he can operate off the dribble and can shoot 3s. A better, more consistent Naz Reid type who is bigger and better at rebounding and D is what I want. Christian Wood and Myles Turner are good examples of this.

[minimus]

Back to the basket isn’t super common right now. Reid is kinda B2B but he can operate off the dribble and can shoot 3s. A better, more consistent Naz Reid type who is bigger and better at rebounding and D is what I want. Christian Wood and Myles Turner are good examples of this.

I am not ready to play KAT at PF full time. Especially with how our new defensive scheme is working right now. However, I do believe that against certain matchup we could use a more traditional bigman. But from both financial standpoint and our offensive/defensive system, it makes sense to invest in MLE level talent at C. Theis seems to be a perfect candidate.

[winforlose]

Back to the basket isn’t super common right now. Reid is kinda B2B but he can operate off the dribble and can shoot 3s. A better, more consistent Naz Reid type who is bigger and better at rebounding and D is what I want. Christian Wood and Myles Turner are good examples of this.

I am not ready to play KAT at PF full time. Especially with how our new defensive scheme is working right now. However, I do believe that against certain matchup we could use a more traditional bigman. But from both financial standpoint and our offensive/defensive system, it makes sense to invest in MLE level talent at C. Theis seems to be a perfect candidate.

1. KAT’s rebounding numbers are down and foul numbers guarding true centers seem to be up because of the weight loss and the fact that he just isn’t the best choice to be guarding Cs. Even Thibs figured this out and put Taj on centers to keep KAT on the floor. KAT isn’t even being guarded by the Cs. Everything gets easier with KAT not being the only legit big. Good luck to most SFs trying to guard a cutting V8 when he is longer, taller, and more athletic then them.

2. I want Theis too. I agree he is great insurance, and he is wicked when paired with Leo at the 1, Ant at the 2, MCD at the 3, Naz at the 4, and Theis at the 5. That lineup among many other combos will be very large and very hard to guard. You want more shooting input Dlo for Leo (we know the Dlo/Ant pair plays well together,) imagine the mix and match options.

3. Beasley and Prince are dead weight. At best you are praying they don’t meltdown and score 5 or less points in 30 minutes (Philly,) or miss a ton of open 3s most of the season. We need someone who gives us the Beasley production while also rebounding. Why isn’t Christian Wood the perfect fit for us? His defense is as good or better than Beasley’s, he will get you the same scoring on less shots, and his rebounding will not only get us second chance points but will also prevent other teams second chance and transition scoring. What am I missing?

4. The financial situation is tricky, but all the contenders are paying through the nose right now. Penny wise and pound foolish doesn’t get national tv money, playoff tv and in arena money, and sold out crowds every night. The league is going big money, we saw how the Twins get outspent and I don’t want the Wolves to follow suit. Build a true contender and then maybe we get discount FAs who want a title. Big ball is perfect for us, and with V8 and MCD at the 3 and Ant and Leo at guards we are damn big.

[minimus]

1. KAT’s rebounding numbers are down and foul numbers guarding true centers seem to be up because of the weight loss and the fact that he just isn’t the best choice to be guarding Cs. Even Thibs figured this out and put Taj on centers to keep KAT on the floor. KAT isn’t even being guarded by the Cs. Everything gets easier with KAT not being the only legit big. Good luck to most SFs trying to guard a cutting V8 when he is longer, taller, and more athletic then them.

Towns is playing on the level on the screen, which means he is basically farther from basket than in drop scheme. He is the same quality rebounder as he has always been. Also this year we are elite at defending three point shots which means more long range rebounds. That is why rebounding now is more a team effort than individual stat. Putting Tows next to another big, means that opponent will plant his big body С in the paint which will take away all around rim opportunities from Edwards. The big next to Towns MUST be dynamic in offence, either rim runner, slasher or stretch 4. I am okay with Theis because is 9 mil player who does not need the ball to be effective, so we can just plug him and play.

[winforlose]

1. KAT’s rebounding numbers are down and foul numbers guarding true centers seem to be up because of the weight loss and the fact that he just isn’t the best choice to be guarding Cs. Even Thibs figured this out and put Taj on centers to keep KAT on the floor. KAT isn’t even being guarded by the Cs. Everything gets easier with KAT not being the only legit big. Good luck to most SFs trying to guard a cutting V8 when he is longer, taller, and more athletic then them.

Towns is playing on the level on the screen, which means he is basically farther from basket than in drop scheme. He is the same quality rebounder as he has always been. Also this year we are elite at defending three point shots which means more long range rebounds. That is why rebounding now is more a team effort than individual stat. Putting Tows next to another big, means that opponent will plant his big body С in the paint which will take away all around rim opportunities from Edwards. The big next to Towns MUST be dynamic in offence, either rim runner, slasher or stretch 4. I am okay with Theis because is 9 mil player who does not need the ball to be effective, so we can just plug him and play.

Last season Wood shot 37.4% from 3 and 51.4% from the field. This season with Wall out he is the focus of the defense and his numbers are down a bit. But you are talking about making him the 3rd or 4th offensive option, which means he should be getting a lot of open looks and scoring more. Last season he averaged 21 points and 9.6 rebounds. Even if he is 15 and 10 with us that would be monumental. On top of that you would have Theis for depth, and with the second unit. Wood takes the big out of the middle unless you are gonna put a 3 on him or KAT. In either case the big will shoot over the small and force their C out of the paint. This opens the lane for Ant and Dlo. I don’t know how to explain it better. With V8 playing the SF the current double off on KAT method no longer works. Also important to point out that Wood is not a huge step down in defense as Beasley isn’t anything special either. Worst case scenario we have an excellent 6th man on any given night. Best case we get an extra shooter who can get hot and take over a game. Why isn’t Wood good enough? Why isn’t also adding Theis for Prince a really good thing?

[Klomp]

You're still trying to campaign for Vanderbilt at SF?

[winforlose]

You're still trying to campaign for Vanderbilt at SF?

Honestly, it is his natural position. What am I missing? Do you honestly believe he cannot guard a SF? He has been guarding them.

As for the trade idea, maybe this will help you guys to see what I see. Also bear in mind they are on a bad team, imagine them on a good team like ours.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thedreamshake.com/platform/amp/2021/10/9/22715999/houston-rockets-christian-wood-and-daniel-theis-are-coming-along-slowly

[Klomp]

You're still trying to campaign for Vanderbilt at SF?

Honestly, it is his natural position. What am I missing? Do you honestly believe he cannot guard a SF? He has been guarding them.

More worried about his offense.

[winforlose]

You're still trying to campaign for Vanderbilt at SF?

Honestly, it is his natural position. What am I missing? Do you honestly believe he cannot guard a SF? He has been guarding them.

More worried about his offense.

As the fifth option why does that matter? I mean honestly, Ant, KAT, Dlo/Beverly, and Wood cannot score enough to let V8 keep doing exactly what he is currently doing at PF? Beverly is out at least 2 weeks, probably 3 or 4. I thought we needed to wait until the 15th but trade machine says it works today. Four weeks of Dlo, Ant, V8, KAT, Wood, Starting with Leo, Ant/Dlo, MCD, Reid, and Theis backup. That is size, defense, rebounding, and improved offense. I don’t know why people aren’t on board with this.

Correction: ESPN trade machine confirms December 15 for Theis. The other one threw me, but the 15th is still a week or two before Bev comes back.

[Klomp]

Honestly, it is his natural position. What am I missing? Do you honestly believe he cannot guard a SF? He has been guarding them.

More worried about his offense.

As the fifth option why does that matter? I mean honestly, Ant, KAT, Dlo/Beverly, and Wood cannot score enough to let V8 keep doing exactly what he is currently doing at PF? Beverly is out at least 2 weeks, probably 3 or 4. I thought we needed to wait until the 15th but trade machine says it works today. Four weeks of Dlo, Ant, V8, KAT, Wood, Starting with Leo, Ant/Dlo, MCD, Reid, and Theis backup. That is size, defense, rebounding, and improved offense. I don’t know why people aren’t on board with this.

Because a player needs to be a threat from where he sets up on the court, otherwise you see good defenses adjust and ignore said player, loading up on the other players. Vanderbilt is a far greater threat from the dunker's spot along the baseline than he would be spaced out in the corner behind the 3-point line.