Ben Simmons Thread (READ FIRST POST)

[shrink]

People are overrating scoring on here. Inflated counting stats are the worst way to judge a player. I feel like I’m making the same argument I made predraft about LaMelo when everyone was saying he was horrible.

You can’t teach Simmons’ BBIQ. He’s a low usage guy, which gives more and easier shots to those that should be taking them, especially Ant and Towns. Was Wiggins a star when he was scoring 20+ here are taking shots from Towns? No. With our scoring options, especially if Russell stays, you need guys that make are scorers life easier, not takes shots from them. We, right now, don’t have a single player that is an elite shot creator for others. A Simmons-type player, who is an elite fit with Towns, would be huge.

Plus, he’s perhaps the best defensive player in the league. How is that being ignored?

I’d love to get Simmons without giving up Russell or McDaniels. Take all the picks. I just don’t see that happening. I just hope we don’t give up both.

I agree with your premise. We need low usage guys that help make life easier for our scorers, and we have a big hole on defense. My concerns with Simmons are:

1. Would he be willing to be the fourth or fifth options (KAT, Edwards, DLo and maybe Beasley)?

2. Simmons is a good facilitator, but he wants the ball in his hands. Is DLo good with it if we take the ball out of his? How valuable is he if we do? Jonny K says Simmons is okay with coming here - he’s not sure if he’s okay coming here and not being the “PG” rather than the PF.

3. Simmons’ inability to shoot allows his defender to crowd the lane, making life harder on a cutting Edwards, and hurts Towns inside/outside match up advantage.

[D1SGRUNTL3D]

Let me get thhis straight. You want to give up 20 pts a night with Dlo, 15 pts a night with Beasley and 10 pts or more from McD. That's 45 pts and we get back 14. I don't see us as a stronger team. Look at the depth we lose for a guy who can't shoot. Shooting is the most important skill in the game today. How great would Steph and Durant be if they couldn't shoot?

We get back a very good defender and a guy who can drive to the basket. It just doesn't seem fair to me.

At this point nobody is going to change anyones mind. i almost wish it were over so we could talk about something else.

Wouldn't it be great if there was a strong consensus to get the guy? When half the people here argue against that should be telling.

I've always said I'd like the guy without giving up the core of Dlo, McD, Ant or Kat. Philly is in a very bad negotiating position and it's getting worse. They know it and so does Rosas. I trust him to make the right call. I can walk from this deal very easily.

This is the point I was trying to make earlier and agree wholeheartedly.

So let me get this straight, both of you think that if we send DLo back, we're gonna score 20 points less per game? Or if we send Beasley back, we're gonna score 15 points less per game? You don't understand that somebody else is simply gonna get more shots that went to DLo or Beasley and make a lot of them?

Just like when a guy I argued with claimed that Portland is gonna smoke the Nuggets in the 1st round of last playoffs, because Lillard, McCollum and Powell combined averaged like 76 ppg in the regular season, while Campazzo, Rivers who had to start in the playoffs because of injuries averaged like 15 ppg combined in the RS, completely disregarding that they had lesser roles and lesser minutes playing behind Murray, Barton, Dozier etc. And what happened? All the Nuggets guards averaged much more in the Portland series than they averaged in the RS, because they got the increased minutes and different offensive roles in the absence of Murray, Barton and Dozier, and Nuggets took Portland out in 6.

PPG is not something you just subtract or add to your scoring total to evaluate trades, PPG is caused by minutes played per game and role on offense, not simply by individual's basketball skills. Be sure that whoever gets the minutes and/or role increased if we trade depth for Simmons is gonna average more PPG on more shots, we're not losing 35 PPG while adding 14 from Simmons, it's flat out wrong to argue that, please stop.

Here's the exchange between me and that Portland guy, just found it and I'm gonna copy it here to illustrate my point:

I've seen this dumb-ass argument on multiple occasions in this thread. How don't you people realize that what's dropping their averages is that guys like Morris and Campazzo played low-minute bench roles, plus playing alongside many scorers who take more ball for the most of the season? Comparing PPG the way you're comparing it is just stupid AF, these guys will average more PPG with the higher usage rates and minutes that they're gonna have.

Fine, use pts/36 and your trio if hapless scorers goes all the way up to a combined 35.9 pts/36. Lillard, McCollum and Powell average a combined 71.2 pts/36.

The point remains unchanged. DEN will struggle to get scoring from anyone other than Jokic and MPJ. And as a POR fan, I'd love to see Campazzo, Morris and Rivers all average 36 MPG for the series.

And what happened? On 30 min per game, this trio of two starters and one bench player (Campazzo, Rivers, Morris) is averaging 35.6pts. What happens if it's pts/36min then? Around 44pts/36 for that trio. And Por starting trio is averaging 72pts/39min, so what happens if that average drops to 36min? It's around 66pts/36. 44 compared to 66 doesn't look as gigantic as your initial 68.9 to 25.0 ppg, huh?

And what if we actually compare the starting PG/SG/SF's instead of 2 starters and 1 bench player vs 3 starters? Take Gordon or MPJ as the starting SF, doesn't matter. You plug in any decent player in a lineup with Jokic and give him higher usage rate in the absence of Murray, and that guy is gonna up his offensive output, it's pretty simple. So please, forget about ever using this awful brand of ppg or pts/36-based analysis without putting things into context

I’m saying you’re taking a scorer from our starting line up, and a scorer from our bench. After Beasley we don’t have much in terms of bench scoring. After DLo we have Ant and KAT.

Yes there’ll be shots for others if you lose Beas and Dlo. Simmons also will score himself.


If you plug Ben into Portland’s lineup and just take out CJ, do you think their PPG goes up, down or stays the same?


I’m all for getting Simmons. I’m not all for depleting our shooting for a guy who literally can’t shoot.

[NYSixersFan]

Based on what I'm reading, you guys seem to want Simmons and most of us Sixer fans want him the hell off our team....so let's get it done

I think the value being discussed on this board is fair, but it would need to involve a 3rd or possibly 4th team.

[FinnTheHuman]

I’m saying you’re taking a scorer from our starting line up, and a scorer from our bench. After Beasley we don’t have much in terms of bench scoring. After DLo we have Ant and KAT.

Yes there’ll be shots for others if you lose Beas and Dlo. Simmons also will score himself.


If you plug Ben into Portland’s lineup and just take out CJ, do you think their PPG goes up, down or stays the same?


I’m all for getting Simmons. I’m not all for depleting our shooting for a guy who literally can’t shoot.

We can stagger Simmons' and Ant's minutes, Ant can play isolation after isolation with the bench, he projects to be good at that, while Simmons runs the starting lineup's offense. We can call more actions with KAT rolling or popping, we can run smth for Prince, Beverley, Naz, Nowell, JMac.

If we had to send both DLo and Beasley, they'd have to send smth back for salary matching, like Danny Green and/or Milton/Korkmaz or smth, and those are all solid players/shooters too.

So we're probably not sending both DLo and Beasley, I reckon it'd probably be DLo or Beasley + picks + probably Jaden, but if we are, we're getting an additional shooter back.

And the whole question of what would happen to our offense/defense is hard to answer because it is extremely complex, as strong defense creates easy offense, intensity creates fatigue in the opponent which creates easier offense, Simmons is great in transition too etc. Defensively Simmons would play with KAT and Ant which is not as good as who he defends with in Philly, so it's a question how much he'd be able to elevate our defense etc.

So people trying to quantify all this are doing it wrong, it's impossible to quantify the effect of Simmons, it's too complex, he'd have to come and play on our roster for us to see what happens. Whether we send certain offers or not will be caused by Rosas' feeling as much as him actually doing analysis. This is what I'm trying to say to everybody being so sure of their opinion here, don't be so sure that a Simmons trade would be good or bad, it can go both ways, but so can our season without a guy who has the size to defend PF's and is a starter level player.

[jpatrick]

People are overrating scoring on here. Inflated counting stats are the worst way to judge a player. I feel like I’m making the same argument I made predraft about LaMelo when everyone was saying he was horrible.

You can’t teach Simmons’ BBIQ. He’s a low usage guy, which gives more and easier shots to those that should be taking them, especially Ant and Towns. Was Wiggins a star when he was scoring 20+ here are taking shots from Towns? No. With our scoring options, especially if Russell stays, you need guys that make are scorers life easier, not takes shots from them. We, right now, don’t have a single player that is an elite shot creator for others. A Simmons-type player, who is an elite fit with Towns, would be huge.

Plus, he’s perhaps the best defensive player in the league. How is that being ignored?

I’d love to get Simmons without giving up Russell or McDaniels. Take all the picks. I just don’t see that happening. I just hope we don’t give up both.

I agree with your premise. We need low usage guys that help make life easier for our scorers, and we have a big hole on defense. My concerns with Simmons are:

1. Would he be willing to be the fourth or fifth options (KAT, Edwards, DLo and maybe Beasley)?

2. Simmons is a good facilitator, but he wants the ball in his hands. Is DLo good with it if we take the ball out of his? How valuable is he if we do? Jonny K says Simmons is okay with coming here - he’s not sure if he’s okay coming here and not being the “PG” rather than the PF.

3. Simmons’ inability to shoot allows his defender to crowd the lane, making life harder on a cutting Edwards, and hurts Towns inside/outside match up advantage.

I think this is all legit. I do worry a bit about the PG vs PF bit. The schematic issues, I leave to Finch, who clearly wants him so I have to believe he has a plan.

To me, the biggest red flag is how badly does Simmons want to win, as he has improved zero thus far. He also packed it in during college, giving zero effort. Also, how emotionally fragile is he? Nick Anderson’s playoff failure destroyed him mentally and he never recovered.

These are all concerns, but us as MN rarely have the opportunity to add a talent like Simmons. Especially one that is BFFs with our other stars and is theoretically a fit here. So, I think we have to go for it.

[shrink]

(I love that I can talk with people that can drop a Nick Anderson reference)

[Klomp]

People are overrating scoring on here. Inflated counting stats are the worst way to judge a player. I feel like I’m making the same argument I made predraft about LaMelo when everyone was saying he was horrible.

You can’t teach Simmons’ BBIQ. He’s a low usage guy, which gives more and easier shots to those that should be taking them, especially Ant and Towns. Was Wiggins a star when he was scoring 20+ here are taking shots from Towns? No. With our scoring options, especially if Russell stays, you need guys that make are scorers life easier, not takes shots from them. We, right now, don’t have a single player that is an elite shot creator for others. A Simmons-type player, who is an elite fit with Towns, would be huge.

Plus, he’s perhaps the best defensive player in the league. How is that being ignored?

I’d love to get Simmons without giving up Russell or McDaniels. Take all the picks. I just don’t see that happening. I just hope we don’t give up both.

I agree with your premise. We need low usage guys that help make life easier for our scorers, and we have a big hole on defense. My concerns with Simmons are:

1. Would he be willing to be the fourth or fifth options (KAT, Edwards, DLo and maybe Beasley)?

2. Simmons is a good facilitator, but he wants the ball in his hands. Is DLo good with it if we take the ball out of his? How valuable is he if we do? Jonny K says Simmons is okay with coming here - he’s not sure if he’s okay coming here and not being the “PG” rather than the PF.

3. Simmons’ inability to shoot allows his defender to crowd the lane, making life harder on a cutting Edwards, and hurts Towns inside/outside match up advantage.

Ben isn't a dribble the air out of the ball kind of PG. Not sure where that misconception keeps coming from. In fact, it's just the opposite, finishing 9th on the team in usage last year at 20.2. The same usage would've put him 7th on the Wolves last year behind Towns (29.1), Russell (29.1), Edwards (27.0), Beasley (24.0), Reid (22.5) and Nowell (21.4).

Regarding the third point, those things happen when the player has a much lower reputation around the league like a Vanderbilt or Okogie. Towns and Edwards did just fine playing with those guys last year. People will still follow Simmons around. If not, they just pass him the ball for the easy dunk.

[jpatrick]

(I love that I can talk with people that can drop a Nick Anderson reference)

Franchise never recovered from taking Pooh over him.

[Klomp]

When we talk about what Simmons offers, we talk about his defense. But let's take that a step further. What this team has lacked for ages is someone who can handle defensive matchups against the LeBrons, against the Giannises, against the Durants, against the Kawhis, against the Zions, etc. I know everyone was excited about the glimpses we saw from McDaniels last year, but he's still only a second year guy and still only like 200 lbs. Simmons is 240 lbs and 6'10". Expecting McDaniels to gain 40 lbs and keep his entire skillset the same is optimistic.

[jpatrick]

When we talk about what Simmons offers, we talk about his defense. But let's take that a step further. What this team has lacked for ages is someone who can handle defensive matchups against the LeBrons, against the Giannises, against the Durants, against the Kawhis, against the Zions, etc. I know everyone was excited about the glimpses we saw from McDaniels last year, but he's still only a second year guy and still only like 200 lbs. Simmons is 240 lbs and 6'10". Expecting McDaniels to gain 40 lbs and keep his entire skillset the same is optimistic.

This is a quality point. I know McDaniels would probably go out in a Simmons deal, but the idea of Simmons, McDaniels, and Beverly guarding on the perimeter would be fun. Even Ant, who has a ways to go on the defensive end, but probably has better defensive tools than any of them.

[SO_MONEY]

When we talk about what Simmons offers, we talk about his defense. But let's take that a step further. What this team has lacked for ages is someone who can handle defensive matchups against the LeBrons, against the Giannises, against the Durants, against the Kawhis, against the Zions, etc. I know everyone was excited about the glimpses we saw from McDaniels last year, but he's still only a second year guy and still only like 200 lbs. Simmons is 240 lbs and 6'10". Expecting McDaniels to gain 40 lbs and keep his entire skillset the same is optimistic.

Still not worth $35mil, you are comparing two vastly different allocations of dollars.

[Baseline81]

When we talk about what Simmons offers, we talk about his defense. But let's take that a step further. What this team has lacked for ages is someone who can handle defensive matchups against the LeBrons, against the Giannises, against the Durants, against the Kawhis, against the Zions, etc. I know everyone was excited about the glimpses we saw from McDaniels last year, but he's still only a second year guy and still only like 200 lbs. Simmons is 240 lbs and 6'10". Expecting McDaniels to gain 40 lbs and keep his entire skillset the same is optimistic.

Can anyone truly matchup against those types, Klomp? And if you say Simmons can, how much does he hold them versus their averages?

Lastly, you listed several SF. I thought this board agreed Simmons would be the frontcourt partner to Towns. Who plays PF those games?

[Dewey]

People are overrating scoring on here. Inflated counting stats are the worst way to judge a player. I feel like I’m making the same argument I made predraft about LaMelo when everyone was saying he was horrible.

You can’t teach Simmons’ BBIQ. He’s a low usage guy, which gives more and easier shots to those that should be taking them, especially Ant and Towns. Was Wiggins a star when he was scoring 20+ here are taking shots from Towns? No. With our scoring options, especially if Russell stays, you need guys that make are scorers life easier, not takes shots from them. We, right now, don’t have a single player that is an elite shot creator for others. A Simmons-type player, who is an elite fit with Towns, would be huge.

Plus, he’s perhaps the best defensive player in the league. How is that being ignored?

I’d love to get Simmons without giving up Russell or McDaniels. Take all the picks. I just don’t see that happening. I just hope we don’t give up both.

I agree with your premise. We need low usage guys that help make life easier for our scorers, and we have a big hole on defense. My concerns with Simmons are:

1. Would he be willing to be the fourth or fifth options (KAT, Edwards, DLo and maybe Beasley)?

2. Simmons is a good facilitator, but he wants the ball in his hands. Is DLo good with it if we take the ball out of his? How valuable is he if we do? Jonny K says Simmons is okay with coming here - he’s not sure if he’s okay coming here and not being the “PG” rather than the PF.

3. Simmons’ inability to shoot allows his defender to crowd the lane, making life harder on a cutting Edwards, and hurts Towns inside/outside match up advantage.

Reply to …
1. The question needs to be address to all 4 of them… ya do what translates to winning basketball.

2. He don’t wanna stand in the corner like we did to Rubio at times … he’ll gladly feast on cutting if the spacing is effective. No reason he cannot have moments of point-forward.

3. Unrealistic to think any team is just gonna let him run free while his defender sits in the lane… but if we actually trade away our shooters to the point we cannot stretch the floor and lack shooting depth, then it’s a potential issue. This is where it can be dicy in terms of what we give up via trade.

[KGdaBom]

If that's all you would give for Simmons you are comparably extremely anti-Simmons. What you are willing to offer would get you hung up on and probably your calls would never be accepted again. Don't try to say you're not anti-Simmons. You are as anti-Simmons as they come.

Someone that is "extremely anti-Simmons" would not want to trade for him at all.

With the offer he proposed he doesn't want to trade for Simmons at all.

[Klomp]

When we talk about what Simmons offers, we talk about his defense. But let's take that a step further. What this team has lacked for ages is someone who can handle defensive matchups against the LeBrons, against the Giannises, against the Durants, against the Kawhis, against the Zions, etc. I know everyone was excited about the glimpses we saw from McDaniels last year, but he's still only a second year guy and still only like 200 lbs. Simmons is 240 lbs and 6'10". Expecting McDaniels to gain 40 lbs and keep his entire skillset the same is optimistic.

Still not worth $35mil, you are comparing two vastly different allocations of dollars.

McDaniels won't be $2 million forever. And it's not like keeping McDaniels over Simmons gives you an extra $33 million to spend.

[Klomp]

When we talk about what Simmons offers, we talk about his defense. But let's take that a step further. What this team has lacked for ages is someone who can handle defensive matchups against the LeBrons, against the Giannises, against the Durants, against the Kawhis, against the Zions, etc. I know everyone was excited about the glimpses we saw from McDaniels last year, but he's still only a second year guy and still only like 200 lbs. Simmons is 240 lbs and 6'10". Expecting McDaniels to gain 40 lbs and keep his entire skillset the same is optimistic.

Can anyone truly matchup against those types, Klomp? And if you say Simmons can, how much does he hold them versus their averages?

Lastly, you listed several SF. I thought this board agreed Simmons would be the frontcourt partner to Towns. Who plays PF those games?

He will match up with whoever is better. You're not going to have him check Millsap instead of Durant just because he's at the 4. Not going to guard Marcus Morris over Kawhi either. There's no need to be scared because he's too small to have him guard a PF if needed either.

[Nick K]

Since you are anti Simmons of course you agree with Shrink. He didn't make any point in that post whatsoever. When he says I'm not a person who wants Simmons here to me that was condescending to those who do.

Do you read? I'm not anti Simmons. I'm anti over paying to get him! You throw players and picks out there like drunken sailors. I'm all for getting Simmons if we don't give up our core. That includes McD. Although, if it came down to it, I'd go Beasley, Prince, and A protected pick. That's it!!

I'd could give up Beverly, Beasley, Prince and a protected 1st. We'll see.

I'm not anti Ben!

I could be wrong but I stand by stating McD being as good if not better overall player than Simmons in 3 years. This kid oozes talent. Let the 19 year old grow up. We'll see.

If that's all you would give for Simmons you are comparably extremely anti-Simmons. What you are willing to offer would get you hung up on and probably your calls would never be accepted again. Don't try to say you're not anti-Simmons. You are as anti-Simmons as they come.

[SO_MONEY]

When we talk about what Simmons offers, we talk about his defense. But let's take that a step further. What this team has lacked for ages is someone who can handle defensive matchups against the LeBrons, against the Giannises, against the Durants, against the Kawhis, against the Zions, etc. I know everyone was excited about the glimpses we saw from McDaniels last year, but he's still only a second year guy and still only like 200 lbs. Simmons is 240 lbs and 6'10". Expecting McDaniels to gain 40 lbs and keep his entire skillset the same is optimistic.

Still not worth $35mil, you are comparing two vastly different allocations of dollars.

McDaniels won't be $2 million forever. And it's not like keeping McDaniels over Simmons gives you an extra $33 million to spend.

It does give you more flexibility. Comparing the two at vastly different salaries isn't going to balance.

[Klomp]

Still not worth $35mil, you are comparing two vastly different allocations of dollars.

McDaniels won't be $2 million forever. And it's not like keeping McDaniels over Simmons gives you an extra $33 million to spend.

It does give you more flexibility. Comparing the two at vastly different salaries isn't going to balance.

Flexibility for what? To trade for an all-star? That's what they'd be doing...flexibility is pointless if you never take advantage of it.

[Nick K]

People are overrating scoring on here. Inflated counting stats are the worst way to judge a player. I feel like I’m making the same argument I made predraft about LaMelo when everyone was saying he was horrible.

You can’t teach Simmons’ BBIQ. He’s a low usage guy, which gives more and easier shots to those that should be taking them, especially Ant and Towns. Was Wiggins a star when he was scoring 20+ here are taking shots from Towns? No. With our scoring options, especially if Russell stays, you need guys that make are scorers life easier, not takes shots from them. We, right now, don’t have a single player that is an elite shot creator for others. A Simmons-type player, who is an elite fit with Towns, would be huge.

Plus, he’s perhaps the best defensive player in the league. How is that being ignored?

I’d love to get Simmons without giving up Russell or McDaniels. Take all the picks. I just don’t see that happening. I just hope we don’t give up both.

That's a solid argument but Kat,Dlo, and Ant don't need help creating their own shot. They don't need someone to make them better. Sure, it would be nice but...

I don't know if he'd accept the role of PF and rebound like a mad man. I don't know if he has it in him. He won't have the ball in his hands all the time either. Can he accept that? I really don't know. That could be a very big factor. He hasn't been used that way before. What about hack a Ben at the end of games. That could be maddening. I can just see us getting to the playoffs and he chokes down the stretch and costs us. Now we'd want to run him out of town. It's an amusing thought.

Of course I love his defense and ability in transition. Also I love his ability to drive to the basket. But then he has to make free throws.

I'd love to see him in with the second unit periodically. he could be amazing helping that group out. Yikes. I wish it were an easy decision. That's why we can't overpay. The less we pay, the easier it gets.