Trade Talk (Part Nine) (READ FIRST POST)

[winforlose]

Gotta ask, what do people think of putting Naz at starting PF and trading for backup 4 and 5. Vando moves to the 3 with Dlo and Ant at 1/2 respectively.

I like the concept of going big, but if I heard Dane’s podcast right, the Pacers game was the first time this year that any 5-man group with KAT and Naz ever had a positive net rating.

I have been listening to his podcast and I don’t remember that. Possible I just missed it, but would love confirmation from advanced stat people.

[shrink]

Gotta ask, what do people think of putting Naz at starting PF and trading for backup 4 and 5. Vando moves to the 3 with Dlo and Ant at 1/2 respectively.

I like the concept of going big, but if I heard Dane’s podcast right, the Pacers game was the first time this year that any 5-man group with KAT and Naz ever had a positive net rating.

I have been listening to his podcast and I don’t remember that. Possible I just missed it, but would love confirmation from advanced stat people.

My memory is not the greatest, but if it helps, I believe Britt said it in the Tuesday pod.

It stuck out to me a little, because I also remember Finch experimenting with playing KAT and Naz together a little last season, though I didn’t hear the results. Before Finch, KAT and Naz almost never shared the floor.

But I’m with you. I’d much rather bank on someone else’s advanced stats, rather than something I may have overheard!

[Klomp]

I believe PJ Washington would be one of the best fits to go next to Towns and Charlotte could use someone like Naz. Unfortunately for us, we'd be filling a need and creating a new one in a swap like that. Is there a work-around?

Update: Charlotte board is asking for a 1st, so probably not

I am starting to adopt a heuristic where you should only trade a 1st to improve your top (1-3/4) starters.

For players with the talent level to only be a borderline starter or high bench player (5-7), you can find those players in free agency for the MLE, and keep your 1st.

I see PJ in the latter category.

I tend to agree. What makes it tricky though is if that 4th/5th starter can elevate the starters and the whole team in a way that is sorely needed. Trying to think of a good example...but if that last guy can elevate your pick from 15-18 to 25-30 (or even from 5-8 to 15-18), I think that also needs to be added into the equation. Not saying that Washington is that, but someone out there might be. For example....looking back and knowing what you know now, would you have been okay trading a 1st for Beverley if you knew the impact he would bring to the franchise? (still can't believe the value we got in that deal)

[wolves_89]

One thing to factor in when considering trading a 1st is that the pick will almost certainly have protections (unless the Wolves are acquiring a star level player). With protections comes the inability to trade picks for multiple years, so any player acquired would have to be worth limiting the teams flexibility for future deals. I believe a big part of the reason why the Wolves haven't addressed their extremely clear need for another big is that they have been unwilling to give up trade flexibility while the Simmons debacle plays out.

[winforlose]

Update: Charlotte board is asking for a 1st, so probably not

I am starting to adopt a heuristic where you should only trade a 1st to improve your top (1-3/4) starters.

For players with the talent level to only be a borderline starter or high bench player (5-7), you can find those players in free agency for the MLE, and keep your 1st.

I see PJ in the latter category.

I tend to agree. What makes it tricky though is if that 4th/5th starter can elevate the starters and the whole team in a way that is sorely needed. Trying to think of a good example...but if that last guy can elevate your pick from 15-18 to 25-30 (or even from 5-8 to 15-18), I think that also needs to be added into the equation. Not saying that Washington is that, but someone out there might be. For example....looking back and knowing what you know now, would you have been okay trading a 1st for Beverley if you knew the impact he would bring to the franchise? (still can't believe the value we got in that deal)

I see your point but have a question. Can we win more than twenty five percent of games without KAT? If yes, can we win half without him? We are so paper thin at big we cannot even play KAT and Naz together if either is in foul trouble. You saw Vando try to guard Harrell, it was a joke. We need bigs, and talented ones at that. Without a lot of talent to sell the only assets of value we have are expiring contracts (marginal value at this point in the season, and picks.

One more thing to consider, If you had to assign PPG to Beasley, Prince, and MCD what would you have said? I ask because even with MCD on the bench we are 22nd in bench scoring and 13th in bench minutes. At this point we can barely withstand one of our big 3 having a bad night. When one of them is out unless one of the above steps out we lose that game. If your not going to spend picks on talent now, then your drafting and hoping KAT sticks around while we muddle through the middle of the pack hoping for a 2nd round elimination instead of the first. If you believe in this core isn’t it time to swing for the fence instead of trying to simply make contact?

Edit: want to clarify, was not talking about PJ when I said take a swing. Missed that bit in the context of your post.

[shrink]

Update: Charlotte board is asking for a 1st, so probably not

I am starting to adopt a heuristic where you should only trade a 1st to improve your top (1-3/4) starters.

For players with the talent level to only be a borderline starter or high bench player (5-7), you can find those players in free agency for the MLE, and keep your 1st.

I see PJ in the latter category.

I tend to agree. What makes it tricky though is if that 4th/5th starter can elevate the starters and the whole team in a way that is sorely needed. Trying to think of a good example...but if that last guy can elevate your pick from 15-18 to 25-30 (or even from 5-8 to 15-18), I think that also needs to be added into the equation. Not saying that Washington is that, but someone out there might be. For example....looking back and knowing what you know now, would you have been okay trading a 1st for Beverley if you knew the impact he would bring to the franchise? (still can't believe the value we got in that deal)

I agree with all of this.

The price goes down because there are so many teams that have PJ-level players. With multiple sellers, they can’t demand a first.

[minimus]

Gotta ask, what do people think of putting Naz at starting PF and trading for backup 4 and 5. Vando moves to the 3 with Dlo and Ant at 1/2 respectively.

I assume that you can find your inspiration in current CLE. It is a bold thinking by CLE, although having versatile Mobley does help a lot bot in defense and offense, while Allen is an elite rim-runner. We dont have such type of personell. One thing to notice, CLE are not elite rebounding team, despite having size advantage.

Watch on YouTube

[winforlose]

Gotta ask, what do people think of putting Naz at starting PF and trading for backup 4 and 5. Vando moves to the 3 with Dlo and Ant at 1/2 respectively.

I assume that you can find your inspiration in current CLE. It is a bold thinking by CLE, although having versatile Mobley does help a lot bot in defense and offense, while Allen is an elite rim-runner. We dont have such type of personell. One thing to notice, CLE are not elite rebounding team, despite having size advantage.

Watch on YouTube

1. Great find on the video. I haven’t watched any CLE, and I wasn’t aware basically of anything outside of Mobley doing well and Rubio scoring.

2. I hate small ball. I was willing to give it a chance when Rosas first came here because I believe in keeping an open mind, but I was proven right over time. Size by itself does not equate to rebounding. Box out technique, BBIQ to track down the long shot, physical strength or weight to not be pushed aside, athletics to explode to the ball rather than waiting for it to come to you, going up with two hands, ect… All of this makes for good rebounding. But size doesn’t hurt either.

3. I played for a long time and a lot of that time I guarded people smaller than me (I was the tallest kid in my class every year basically K-12, or at least the tallest who played basketball.) But, when I played with my older brothers and their friends I was often guarding people a lot bigger than me. I will tell you asking JO to give up 4 inches and 40+ pounds while not impossible is certainly not putting him in a position to succeed.

4. Naz can attack off the dribble, is good in pick and roll and delayed actions that KAT likes to run. In theory Naz is at least league average from deep, but his percentages are down this year. Since people seem to favor smaller moves, this makes the most sense if your goal is to help Ant get to the rim. Naz commands a PF or C because his handle is good enough he could probably bully a wing to the basket before significant help could effectively defeat him. He is also smart enough to swing it should the double come early.

5. Vando is both an essential rebounder and undersized PF. If Vando had smaller, weaker, and less heavy defenders guarding him, he would actually grab more boards and be more effective on offense. He is a natural SF. Meanwhile Naz and KAT working the permitter draws the PF and C out of the lane. The end result is V8’s man is a SF and when he leaves V8, V8 cuts to the basket ASAP for an easy dunk.

[winforlose]

If we could get Kemba Walker for JO and Layman would you do it?

[minimus]

If we could get Kemba Walker for JO and Layman would you do it?

Kemba is washed.

[winforlose]

If we could get Kemba Walker for JO and Layman would you do it?

Kemba is washed.

I know. But he is 2 years kinda cheap, shooting 40% from 3s and a huge improvement over JMAC.

[shrink]

While Russell’s shooting hasn’t been good, he has been good in the clutch. After the PHI game, his trade value to them might never be higher, while Simmons couldn’t be lower. He provides exactly what they need (clutch scorer in the crunch time, passing. Is this the time to offer them a deal with DLo in it?

[shrink]

The other place that might value DLo higher than most is BRK. They also have an expensive player providing zero production.

Some iteration of DLo and Kyrie?

[winforlose]

The other place that might value DLo higher than most is BRK. They also have an expensive player providing zero production.

Some iteration of DLo and Kyrie?

Trade Dlo lose KAT. That simple

[Domejandro]

The other place that might value DLo higher than most is BRK. They also have an expensive player providing zero production.

Some iteration of DLo and Kyrie?

Trade Dlo lose KAT. That simple

Absolutely no evidence of that. If the team improves, it would work out fine.

That said, Kyrie Irving would probably have to go to another team. Beyond it being way too high a risk that he will not be able to play, I think integrating an anti-vaxxer into the locker room would alienate Towns.

[winforlose]

The other place that might value DLo higher than most is BRK. They also have an expensive player providing zero production.

Some iteration of DLo and Kyrie?

Trade Dlo lose KAT. That simple

Absolutely no evidence of that. If the team improves, it would work out fine.

That said, Kyrie Irving would probably have to go to another team. Beyond it being way too high a risk that he will not be able to play, I think integrating an anti-vaxxer into the locker room would alienate Towns.

Yeah, cause KAT never had problems with other friends getting traded (Roco,) or management making big decisions without him (every tweet complaining or asking WTF?) Not even mentioning the FreeKAT mess. Trade away his best friend and see what happens.

[shangrila]

I like the concept of going big, but if I heard Dane’s podcast right, the Pacers game was the first time this year that any 5-man group with KAT and Naz ever had a positive net rating.

I have been listening to his podcast and I don’t remember that. Possible I just missed it, but would love confirmation from advanced stat people.

My memory is not the greatest, but if it helps, I believe Britt said it in the Tuesday pod.

It stuck out to me a little, because I also remember Finch experimenting with playing KAT and Naz together a little last season, though I didn’t hear the results. Before Finch, KAT and Naz almost never shared the floor.

But I’m with you. I’d much rather bank on someone else’s advanced stats, rather than something I may have overheard!

While this isn't what you guys wanted, BBallreference has lineups and there's none in there that feature Towns and Reid last season (probably a minutes thing) while I think this year there's 1 that isn't positive.

It would match the eye test. Reid is basically a poor man's Towns with most of the same strengths and weaknesses, so pairing them together probably doesn't move the needle much.

[shrink]

I read the firing of Ryan Saunders is the one he took hardest, because he felt so much loyalty to the Saunders family. That said, even after all the losses (people he liked and Timberwolves games), KAT said just last month how he’d sign an extension tomorrow to stay in Minnesota, if it was legal.

I think Domejandro’s right though. With all the family members KAT lost to Covid, I don’t think he’d be keen on Kyrie refusing to vaccinate (he says he isn’t an anti-vaxxer tho). And Kyrie might refuse to re-sign, if we even wanted him too.

[shangrila]

If we could get Kemba Walker for JO and Layman would you do it?

Kemba is washed.

I know. But he is 2 years kinda cheap, shooting 40% from 3s and a huge improvement over JMAC.

I'd be more interested in the salary spot. If nothing else materialises I'd do Layman+Okogie for Walker just to have an 8mil expiring next year.

[wolves_89]

After the past few games I'm convinced it's time to make a deal. Guys like Bolmaro, Nowell, and Knight look perfectly capable of taking over rotation spots, so trading some combination of Beasley, Prince, Okogie, Layman, and McLaughlin (and a pick or two) for an upgrade makes a lot of sense. The swing for the fence options include Simmons, Turner, and Siakam. Guys who would provide a moderate upgrade would be PJ Washington, Barnes, Kuzma, Nance, and Theis. I'd even be looking at a reclamation project like Bagley.