2025 Summer League

[winforlose]

This ^. PG play matters, and to say Rob can play Af and Rudy can play PF is a questionable understanding of how the Fowards functions. If you miss that, and you miss the PG function it raises questions about the understanding of the rest of the offense, and how a structured approach can defeat good defense. Whereas a chaotic approach leads to what we saw against Dallas and OKC where structured defenses make Ant’s life hell, and the offense stalls out.

The difference is, I'm actually looking at what the actual team runs and basing my understanding of the offense around that. I'm not basing my understanding of the offense based on my understanding of how randoms on the internet would run the offense if they were in charge. Stay in fantasy land if you'd like, but I'm basing my takes on what has actually happened over the last 5 years of watching Chris Finch run this team.

This is fair. That said let’s look at each of the five years.

Year 1 20/21: Finch comes in mid season, the team is already going to miss the playoffs, nothing to do.
Year 2 21/22: We make the first round as the 7 after beating the Clippers in the playin. We have major leads against the Griz and proceed to blow them. We lose a series we should win and get bounced in round 1.
Year 3 22/23: We deal with injuries, team immaturity (Jaden punches a wall, Rudy punches Kyle,) and we end up the 8th seed. Eliminated in round 1 again.
Year 4 23/24: We sweep the Suns, survive the defending champs, only to get destroyed by the Mavs. A team who out schemed us on both offense and defense.
Year 5 24/25: We limp into the 6th seed with the worst clutch record in the league. We take advantage of undersized, poorly constructed, and injured opponents to get to the WCF. In the WCF we get exposed again as we are out schemed on offense and defense.

You are correct that people like me talk about what should be rather than what is. You fail to grasp that what is keeps losing, and if Finch is going to stay and we are going to get over the hump, then something needs to change.

[Klomp]

This ^. PG play matters, and to say Rob can play Af and Rudy can play PF is a questionable understanding of how the Fowards functions. If you miss that, and you miss the PG function it raises questions about the understanding of the rest of the offense, and how a structured approach can defeat good defense. Whereas a chaotic approach leads to what we saw against Dallas and OKC where structured defenses make Ant’s life hell, and the offense stalls out.

The difference is, I'm actually looking at what the actual team runs and basing my understanding of the offense around that. I'm not basing my understanding of the offense based on my understanding of how randoms on the internet would run the offense if they were in charge. Stay in fantasy land if you'd like, but I'm basing my takes on what has actually happened over the last 5 years of watching Chris Finch run this team.

This is fair. That said let’s look at each of the five years.

Year 1 20/21: Finch comes in mid season, the team is already going to miss the playoffs, nothing to do.
Year 2 21/22: We make the first round as the 7 after beating the Clippers in the playin. We have major leads against the Griz and proceed to blow them. We lose a series we should win and get bounced in round 1.
Year 3 22/23: We deal with injuries, team immaturity (Jaden punches a wall, Rudy punches Kyle,) and we end up the 8th seed. Eliminated in round 1 again.
Year 4 23/24: We sweep the Suns, survive the defending champs, only to get destroyed by the Mavs. A team who out schemed us on both offense and defense.
Year 5 24/25: We limp into the 6th seed with the worst clutch record in the league. We take advantage of undersized, poorly constructed, and injured opponents to get to the WCF. In the WCF we get exposed again as we are out schemed on offense and defense.

You are correct that people like me talk about what should be rather than what is. You fail to grasp that what is keeps losing, and if Finch is going to stay and we are going to get over the hump, then something needs to change.

So we go from missing the playoffs to first round exits to Western Conference Finals, steady improvement that matches the steady growth of our 24-year old franchise player, and you want to just change it all up?

[winforlose]

The difference is, I'm actually looking at what the actual team runs and basing my understanding of the offense around that. I'm not basing my understanding of the offense based on my understanding of how randoms on the internet would run the offense if they were in charge. Stay in fantasy land if you'd like, but I'm basing my takes on what has actually happened over the last 5 years of watching Chris Finch run this team.

This is fair. That said let’s look at each of the five years.

Year 1 20/21: Finch comes in mid season, the team is already going to miss the playoffs, nothing to do.
Year 2 21/22: We make the first round as the 7 after beating the Clippers in the playin. We have major leads against the Griz and proceed to blow them. We lose a series we should win and get bounced in round 1.
Year 3 22/23: We deal with injuries, team immaturity (Jaden punches a wall, Rudy punches Kyle,) and we end up the 8th seed. Eliminated in round 1 again.
Year 4 23/24: We sweep the Suns, survive the defending champs, only to get destroyed by the Mavs. A team who out schemed us on both offense and defense.
Year 5 24/25: We limp into the 6th seed with the worst clutch record in the league. We take advantage of undersized, poorly constructed, and injured opponents to get to the WCF. In the WCF we get exposed again as we are out schemed on offense and defense.

You are correct that people like me talk about what should be rather than what is. You fail to grasp that what is keeps losing, and if Finch is going to stay and we are going to get over the hump, then something needs to change.

So we go from missing the playoffs to first round exits to Western Conference Finals, steady improvement that matches the steady growth of our 24-year old franchise player, and you want to just change it all up?

Who said “ and you want to just change it all up?” I want to fix the part that is consistently broken. I want to make the game easier for Ant so he can take the next step. Your question assumes it could never have gone our way, my point is that it could have. Finch has a weakness, the guys don’t listen to him. They don’t play Finch ball. He also lacks the PG he needs to run Finch ball. Finch ball lacks structure during the best of times, it is a mess at the worst of the them. You saw for yourself how we performed in the playoffs, do you honestly think there is nothing worth fixing? Or that you cannot fix the broken bits without blowing things up?

[Klomp]

This is fair. That said let’s look at each of the five years.

Year 1 20/21: Finch comes in mid season, the team is already going to miss the playoffs, nothing to do.
Year 2 21/22: We make the first round as the 7 after beating the Clippers in the playin. We have major leads against the Griz and proceed to blow them. We lose a series we should win and get bounced in round 1.
Year 3 22/23: We deal with injuries, team immaturity (Jaden punches a wall, Rudy punches Kyle,) and we end up the 8th seed. Eliminated in round 1 again.
Year 4 23/24: We sweep the Suns, survive the defending champs, only to get destroyed by the Mavs. A team who out schemed us on both offense and defense.
Year 5 24/25: We limp into the 6th seed with the worst clutch record in the league. We take advantage of undersized, poorly constructed, and injured opponents to get to the WCF. In the WCF we get exposed again as we are out schemed on offense and defense.

You are correct that people like me talk about what should be rather than what is. You fail to grasp that what is keeps losing, and if Finch is going to stay and we are going to get over the hump, then something needs to change.

So we go from missing the playoffs to first round exits to Western Conference Finals, steady improvement that matches the steady growth of our 24-year old franchise player, and you want to just change it all up?

Who said “ and you want to just change it all up?” I want to fix the part that is consistently broken. I want to make the game easier for Ant so he can take the next step. Your question assumes it could never have gone our way, my point is that it could have. Finch has a weakness, the guys don’t listen to him. They don’t play Finch ball. He also lacks the PG he needs to run Finch ball. Finch ball lacks structure during the best of times, it is a mess at the worst of the them. You saw for yourself how we performed in the playoffs, do you honestly think there is nothing worth fixing? Or that you cannot fix the broken bits without blowing things up?

So SOMETHING NEEDS TO CHANGE does not mean you want to change things? In what language does something need to change actually mean you don't want to change things?

[winforlose]

So we go from missing the playoffs to first round exits to Western Conference Finals, steady improvement that matches the steady growth of our 24-year old franchise player, and you want to just change it all up?

Who said “ and you want to just change it all up?” I want to fix the part that is consistently broken. I want to make the game easier for Ant so he can take the next step. Your question assumes it could never have gone our way, my point is that it could have. Finch has a weakness, the guys don’t listen to him. They don’t play Finch ball. He also lacks the PG he needs to run Finch ball. Finch ball lacks structure during the best of times, it is a mess at the worst of the them. You saw for yourself how we performed in the playoffs, do you honestly think there is nothing worth fixing? Or that you cannot fix the broken bits without blowing things up?

So SOMETHING NEEDS TO CHANGE does not mean you want to change things? In what language does something need to change actually mean you don't want to change things?

Gonna quote you again and this time I will be more specific “and you want to just change it ALL up?” Fixing the broken part is not changing everything, it is changing the part that needs changing while leaving the rest alone.

[Klomp]

Who said “ and you want to just change it all up?” I want to fix the part that is consistently broken. I want to make the game easier for Ant so he can take the next step. Your question assumes it could never have gone our way, my point is that it could have. Finch has a weakness, the guys don’t listen to him. They don’t play Finch ball. He also lacks the PG he needs to run Finch ball. Finch ball lacks structure during the best of times, it is a mess at the worst of the them. You saw for yourself how we performed in the playoffs, do you honestly think there is nothing worth fixing? Or that you cannot fix the broken bits without blowing things up?

So SOMETHING NEEDS TO CHANGE does not mean you want to change things? In what language does something need to change actually mean you don't want to change things?

Gonna quote you again and this time I will be more specific “and you want to just change it ALL up?” Fixing the broken part is not changing everything, it is changing the part that needs changing while leaving the rest alone.

If a change affects a fundamental part of the system it is changing everything. Great, you want a new PG to come in and run the show. The only problem is, that means Ant becomes relegated to either the corners or to the secondary playmaker role, where an important part of the role is to properly determine when to rotate the ball to the other side of the court. Is that the best use of Ant's abilities?

[winforlose]

So SOMETHING NEEDS TO CHANGE does not mean you want to change things? In what language does something need to change actually mean you don't want to change things?

Gonna quote you again and this time I will be more specific “and you want to just change it ALL up?” Fixing the broken part is not changing everything, it is changing the part that needs changing while leaving the rest alone.

If a change affects a fundamental part of the system it is changing everything. Great, you want a new PG to come in and run the show. The only problem is, that means Ant becomes relegated to either the corners or to the secondary playmaker role, where an important part of the role is to properly determine when to rotate the ball to the other side of the court. Is that the best use of Ant's abilities?

So to be clear, unless Ant initiates offense through double teams he cannot properly utilize his abilities? Ant literally told the world he doesn’t want to be a PG or initiate the offense. He does not want to pass and set up teammates, he wants to shoot. You think Ant can get the best out of Rudy? You saw first hand how badly things can go when Ant initiates and they pressure him. Worse, when the game is close late and he goes hero mode. Are we really saying that Finch isn’t capable of adapting his offense to having a true PG? Or are we saying Ant’s game doesn’t work when someone else (like Randle for example,) is initiating? Or are we saying Ant doesn’t have the BBIQ to play within a system? If non of the above is true, then maybe we learn from what failed the last 4 years and try and fix it?

[Norseman79]

So SOMETHING NEEDS TO CHANGE does not mean you want to change things? In what language does something need to change actually mean you don't want to change things?

Gonna quote you again and this time I will be more specific “and you want to just change it ALL up?” Fixing the broken part is not changing everything, it is changing the part that needs changing while leaving the rest alone.

If a change affects a fundamental part of the system it is changing everything. Great, you want a new PG to come in and run the show. The only problem is, that means Ant becomes relegated to either the corners or to the secondary playmaker role, where an important part of the role is to properly determine when to rotate the ball to the other side of the court. Is that the best use of Ant's abilities?

Ant would never be regulated to a corner. C'mon, you are better than that

[Norseman79]

Gonna quote you again and this time I will be more specific “and you want to just change it ALL up?” Fixing the broken part is not changing everything, it is changing the part that needs changing while leaving the rest alone.

If a change affects a fundamental part of the system it is changing everything. Great, you want a new PG to come in and run the show. The only problem is, that means Ant becomes relegated to either the corners or to the secondary playmaker role, where an important part of the role is to properly determine when to rotate the ball to the other side of the court. Is that the best use of Ant's abilities?

So to be clear, unless Ant initiates offense through double teams he cannot properly utilize his abilities? Ant literally told the world he doesn’t want to be a PG or initiate the offense. He does not want to pass and set up teammates, he wants to shoot. You think Ant can get the best out of Rudy? You saw first hand how badly things can go when Ant initiates and they pressure him. Worse, when the game is close late and he goes hero mode. Are we really saying that Finch isn’t capable of adapting his offense to having a true PG? Or are we saying Ant’s game doesn’t work when someone else (like Randle for example,) is initiating? Or are we saying Ant doesn’t have the BBIQ to play within a system? If non of the above is true, then maybe we learn from what failed the last 4 years and try and fix it?

Preach

[winforlose]

Hawks win by 4. If I am correct they are eliminated.

[Worm Guts]

Hawks win by 4. If I am correct they are eliminated.

Not yet. They are currently 4th

[winforlose]

Hawks win by 4. If I am correct they are eliminated.

Not yet. They are currently 4th

Two undefeated teams are playing (Hornets and Spurs,) one of them would likely displace the Hawks.

[FrenchMinnyFan]

Thinking that getting a PG who will carry the offense when you got in your team ANT and Randle is totally unrealistic. They both like to have the ball in hands. Some peoples here want to make the same mistakes many teams makes ( Clippers, Suns, Atlanta...), adding a star (PG) with 2 stars players already. It won't work. This team is build for ANT and Randle is the second star. What we need is just a slight improvement from Jaden, NAZ, TSJ and limiting the turnover part and we can get a ring. For me the only regret i got is not getting Tyus. He would have been the perfect complement we need, great ballhandling one of the best ration Assist-TO in the league for year.

Now we have to hope that Rob improve a lot and can help.

[Worm Guts]

Hawks win by 4. If I am correct they are eliminated.

Not yet. They are currently 4th

Two undefeated teams are playing (Hornets and Spurs,) one of them would likely displace the Hawks.

I think they said Charlotte has to win by 7 to pass them, they are currently up 27.

[winforlose]

Not yet. They are currently 4th

Two undefeated teams are playing (Hornets and Spurs,) one of them would likely displace the Hawks.

I think they said Charlotte has to win by 7 to pass them, they are currently up 27.

If they win by enough they will pass us, which means we are basically dead in the water. A lot of other teams need to lose for us to make 4th.

[Worm Guts]

Two undefeated teams are playing (Hornets and Spurs,) one of them would likely displace the Hawks.

I think they said Charlotte has to win by 7 to pass them, they are currently up 27.

If they win by enough they will pass us, which means we are basically dead in the water. A lot of other teams need to lose for us to make 4th.

We’ll be in 4th if Charlotte wins by more than 13. Toronto would probably have to lose, they have a significant edge in point differential. The Clippers are the other remaining unbeaten team, we currently have the point differential advantage against them.

[Norseman79]

Thinking that getting a PG who will carry the offense when you got in your team ANT and Randle is totally unrealistic. They both like to have the ball in hands. Some peoples here want to make the same mistakes many teams makes ( Clippers, Suns, Atlanta...), adding a star (PG) with 2 stars players already. It won't work. This team is build for ANT and Randle is the second star. What we need is just a slight improvement from Jaden, NAZ, TSJ and limiting the turnover part and we can get a ring. For me the only regret i got is not getting Tyus. He would have been the perfect complement we need, great ballhandling one of the best ration Assist-TO in the league for year.

Now we have to hope that Rob improve a lot and can help.

Randle isn't a star, and there is a difference between adding a score first point guard and a 3&D type of point guard.

[Araxen]

The people who think Dilly is going to get a lot of minutes next season are going to be sorely disappointed. It's likely going to be TSJ/DDV at backup PG. I don't care for DDV playing PG because he doesn't shoot as good. It will not surprise me if we trade for PG. TC isn't going to make a deal just to make one which is why he hasn't done it yet. He's going to wait for the right deal.

[winforlose]

Warriors blew a big lead and are down 9 heading into the 4th. Any Raptors win and the Wolves are 5th in a 4 way race.

[younggunsmn]

This ^. PG play matters, and to say Rob can play Af and Rudy can play PF is a questionable understanding of how the Fowards functions. If you miss that, and you miss the PG function it raises questions about the understanding of the rest of the offense, and how a structured approach can defeat good defense. Whereas a chaotic approach leads to what we saw against Dallas and OKC where structured defenses make Ant’s life hell, and the offense stalls out.

The difference is, I'm actually looking at what the actual team runs and basing my understanding of the offense around that. I'm not basing my understanding of the offense based on my understanding of how randoms on the internet would run the offense if they were in charge. Stay in fantasy land if you'd like, but I'm basing my takes on what has actually happened over the last 5 years of watching Chris Finch run this team.

You are twisting yourself into knots trying to defend the lack of PG play in our current roster construction.

This is the box score of the last game we played where we were eliminated at home by the Thunder by THIRTY POINTS and we threw in the towel with 7 minutes left to go.
https://www.espn.com/nba/boxscore/_/gameId/401773152

We had 16 assists and 21 Turnovers which is abominable.
Our only real PG during the minutes that mattered played only 21 minutes and had zero points and one assist.

The kind of offense you are advocating for is exactly the kind of offense we played in that game.

Conley getting injured had a large effect on the meltdown against dallas the year before.
Cassell getting injured and having no depth had a large effect in 03/04 too.

You are what you can defend with the one exception of Point Guard.
Because you can mask a lack of ball skills at pretty much any other position.
And even that has its limits.

Like any good coach Finch is trying to make the best of the personnel that he is given and that more than anything else dictates what he is going to run.
Don't get hung up on "horns sets" which by the way the usage has gone way way down on since KAT was traded.

We lack the skill to run a lot of the effective things other teams run because of our mediocre to poor ballhandling pretty much across the board.
You give Finch prime CP3 or Steve Nash and I guarantee you the playbook would look a LOT different.
Our offense has been mediocre to bad since we traded for Gobert and the offense we have seen the past few years is more about coping with the combination of Rudy's weaknesses and the lack of having a true facilitator than anything else.