2025 Summer League

[Shaka_Zulu]

Gonna quote you again and this time I will be more specific “and you want to just change it ALL up?” Fixing the broken part is not changing everything, it is changing the part that needs changing while leaving the rest alone.

If a change affects a fundamental part of the system it is changing everything. Great, you want a new PG to come in and run the show. The only problem is, that means Ant becomes relegated to either the corners or to the secondary playmaker role, where an important part of the role is to properly determine when to rotate the ball to the other side of the court. Is that the best use of Ant's abilities?

So to be clear, unless Ant initiates offense through double teams he cannot properly utilize his abilities? Ant literally told the world he doesn’t want to be a PG or initiate the offense. He does not want to pass and set up teammates, he wants to shoot. You think Ant can get the best out of Rudy? You saw first hand how badly things can go when Ant initiates and they pressure him. Worse, when the game is close late and he goes hero mode. Are we really saying that Finch isn’t capable of adapting his offense to having a true PG? Or are we saying Ant’s game doesn’t work when someone else (like Randle for example,) is initiating? Or are we saying Ant doesn’t have the BBIQ to play within a system? If non of the above is true, then maybe we learn from what failed the last 4 years and try and fix it?

What he said

[KGdaBom]

This ^. PG play matters, and to say Rob can play Af and Rudy can play PF is a questionable understanding of how the Fowards functions. If you miss that, and you miss the PG function it raises questions about the understanding of the rest of the offense, and how a structured approach can defeat good defense. Whereas a chaotic approach leads to what we saw against Dallas and OKC where structured defenses make Ant’s life hell, and the offense stalls out.

The difference is, I'm actually looking at what the actual team runs and basing my understanding of the offense around that. I'm not basing my understanding of the offense based on my understanding of how randoms on the internet would run the offense if they were in charge. Stay in fantasy land if you'd like, but I'm basing my takes on what has actually happened over the last 5 years of watching Chris Finch run this team.

You are twisting yourself into knots trying to defend the lack of PG play in our current roster construction.

This is the box score of the last game we played where we were eliminated at home by the Thunder by THIRTY POINTS and we threw in the towel with 7 minutes left to go.
https://www.espn.com/nba/boxscore/_/gameId/401773152

We had 16 assists and 21 Turnovers which is abominable.
Our only real PG during the minutes that mattered played only 21 minutes and had zero points and one assist.

The kind of offense you are advocating for is exactly the kind of offense we played in that game.

Conley getting injured had a large effect on the meltdown against dallas the year before.
Cassell getting injured and having no depth had a large effect in 03/04 too.

You are what you can defend with the one exception of Point Guard.
Because you can mask a lack of ball skills at pretty much any other position.
And even that has its limits.

Like any good coach Finch is trying to make the best of the personnel that he is given and that more than anything else dictates what he is going to run.
Don't get hung up on "horns sets" which by the way the usage has gone way way down on since KAT was traded.

We lack the skill to run a lot of the effective things other teams run because of our mediocre to poor ballhandling pretty much across the board.
You give Finch prime CP3 or Steve Nash and I guarantee you the playbook would look a LOT different.
Our offense has been mediocre to bad since we traded for Gobert and the offense we have seen the past few years is more about coping with the combination of Rudy's weaknesses and the lack of having a true facilitator than anything else.

Cassell was 2nd team all NBA in 03-04. If he doesn't get injured there's no doubt in my mind we win the NBA title that year.

[Klomp]

You are twisting yourself into knots trying to defend the lack of PG play in our current roster construction.

This is the box score of the last game we played where we were eliminated at home by the Thunder by THIRTY POINTS and we threw in the towel with 7 minutes left to go.
https://www.espn.com/nba/boxscore/_/gameId/401773152

We had 16 assists and 21 Turnovers which is abominable.
Our only real PG during the minutes that mattered played only 21 minutes and had zero points and one assist.

Wait, I thought just playing a PG would cure all of the team's ailments? But now you're saying that when a PG played, it actually didn't improve the issue at all?

I've never said that the team doesn't have to improve at turnovers. I just don't think it's as automatic as signing a big name PG and suddenly all of the issues disappear.

[Clav]

Was really hoping to see Wolves make it into the top-4, even with an undefeated tally this SL, just missed out on pt differential.

Although I hope they empty the bench to play Sane and some other guys that haven't seen the court much, give them some PT to see what happens. Zikarsky, too.

[winforlose]

You are twisting yourself into knots trying to defend the lack of PG play in our current roster construction.

This is the box score of the last game we played where we were eliminated at home by the Thunder by THIRTY POINTS and we threw in the towel with 7 minutes left to go.
https://www.espn.com/nba/boxscore/_/gameId/401773152

We had 16 assists and 21 Turnovers which is abominable.
Our only real PG during the minutes that mattered played only 21 minutes and had zero points and one assist.

Wait, I thought just playing a PG would cure all of the team's ailments? But now you're saying that when a PG played, it actually didn't improve the issue at all?

I've never said that the team doesn't have to improve at turnovers. I just don't think it's as automatic as signing a big name PG and suddenly all of the issues disappear.

Saying there is no difference between a 37 year old Mike Conley and a starting quality PG is like saying DDV is as talented as Ant or maybe even more talented. It is just nonsensical. To even suggest that 37 year old Mike is the pinnacle is just not a good faith discussion. The point being made is with a proper PG running a proper system, we can handle the pressure better and cut down on turnovers. The flaws are with both the player and the system. Either you believe Finch is not good enough at coaching to properly utilize a solid starting PG, or you believe a chaotic approach is superior to the alternative which is consistently employed by champions to win championships. Either way you cannot account for teams needing PGs to win the last game of the year.

[minimus]

Read on Twitter

Couple of overreactions:

1) Nique Clifford is a real deal. Looks like NBA rotation player

2) I like Tyrese Proctor

3) is Ryan Nembhard the best pass first PG of the draft?

[KGdaBom]

They need to have an 8 team SL playoff. Can't have undefeated teams missing the playoff.

[Norseman79]

Read on Twitter

Couple of overreactions:

1) Nique Clifford is a real deal. Looks like NBA rotation player

2) I like Tyrese Proctor

3) is Ryan Nembhard the best pass first PG of the draft?

Where would Dilly rank on this?

[winforlose]

They need to have an 8 team SL playoff. Can't have undefeated teams missing the playoff.

The point is to limit games. If you have 8 then the playoff must be 3 rounds. To accommodate you either add a 7th game, or you limit the main tournament to 3. If it has only 3 you can easily have undefeated teams missing games.

Also you should know we had a very weak set of opponents to go undefeated. Denver won only 1 game, NOP won 0, and the Suns had 1 win. So in essence 3 of the 4 teams went a combined 2-10, and Detroit went 3-1. 5-11 would not be a strength of schedule tie breaker.

[TimberKat]

You are twisting yourself into knots trying to defend the lack of PG play in our current roster construction.

This is the box score of the last game we played where we were eliminated at home by the Thunder by THIRTY POINTS and we threw in the towel with 7 minutes left to go.
https://www.espn.com/nba/boxscore/_/gameId/401773152

We had 16 assists and 21 Turnovers which is abominable.
Our only real PG during the minutes that mattered played only 21 minutes and had zero points and one assist.

Wait, I thought just playing a PG would cure all of the team's ailments? But now you're saying that when a PG played, it actually didn't improve the issue at all?

I've never said that the team doesn't have to improve at turnovers. I just don't think it's as automatic as signing a big name PG and suddenly all of the issues disappear.

Saying there is no difference between a 37 year old Mike Conley and a starting quality PG is like saying DDV is as talented as Ant or maybe even more talented. It is just nonsensical. To even suggest that 37 year old Mike is the pinnacle is just not a good faith discussion. The point being made is with a proper PG running a proper system, we can handle the pressure better and cut down on turnovers. The flaws are with both the player and the system. Either you believe Finch is not good enough at coaching to properly utilize a solid starting PG, or you believe a chaotic approach is superior to the alternative which is consistently employed by champions to win championships. Either way you cannot account for teams needing PGs to win the last game of the year.

Just wondering if our point guard issue actually cost us some free agent signings? Does anyone really want to play with Ant and Randle? You are not going to have many touches and expected to play defense. I wish Joe Smith is still around.

[winforlose]

Wait, I thought just playing a PG would cure all of the team's ailments? But now you're saying that when a PG played, it actually didn't improve the issue at all?

I've never said that the team doesn't have to improve at turnovers. I just don't think it's as automatic as signing a big name PG and suddenly all of the issues disappear.

Saying there is no difference between a 37 year old Mike Conley and a starting quality PG is like saying DDV is as talented as Ant or maybe even more talented. It is just nonsensical. To even suggest that 37 year old Mike is the pinnacle is just not a good faith discussion. The point being made is with a proper PG running a proper system, we can handle the pressure better and cut down on turnovers. The flaws are with both the player and the system. Either you believe Finch is not good enough at coaching to properly utilize a solid starting PG, or you believe a chaotic approach is superior to the alternative which is consistently employed by champions to win championships. Either way you cannot account for teams needing PGs to win the last game of the year.

Just wondering if our point guard issue actually cost us some free agent signings? Does anyone really want to play with Ant and Randle? You are not going to have many touches and expected to play defense. I wish Joe Smith is still around.

I think the bigger issue is Dilly. If TC missed on Dilly after trading an unprotected first and top 1 protected swap that would be bad for his reputation. Therefore, TC is likely to have Finch give him a real chance (or several.) This plus Mike means playing time is not a given for anyone (remember that Finch plays favorites and Mike is gonna be a favorite.) So yes, it is very possible that the money crunch, opportunity crunch, and situation worked against us.

[Norseman79]

Wait, I thought just playing a PG would cure all of the team's ailments? But now you're saying that when a PG played, it actually didn't improve the issue at all?

I've never said that the team doesn't have to improve at turnovers. I just don't think it's as automatic as signing a big name PG and suddenly all of the issues disappear.

Saying there is no difference between a 37 year old Mike Conley and a starting quality PG is like saying DDV is as talented as Ant or maybe even more talented. It is just nonsensical. To even suggest that 37 year old Mike is the pinnacle is just not a good faith discussion. The point being made is with a proper PG running a proper system, we can handle the pressure better and cut down on turnovers. The flaws are with both the player and the system. Either you believe Finch is not good enough at coaching to properly utilize a solid starting PG, or you believe a chaotic approach is superior to the alternative which is consistently employed by champions to win championships. Either way you cannot account for teams needing PGs to win the last game of the year.

Just wondering if our point guard issue actually cost us some free agent signings? Does anyone really want to play with Ant and Randle? You are not going to have many touches and expected to play defense. I wish Joe Smith is still around.

I think the question is about playing with Ant, Randle to me is expendable with a quality PG. Because the drop/difference between Naz and Randle isn't a major issue . Randle gets in where he fits in or is gone. That being said, I still think Ant would thrive with a jack of all trades type of PG next to him, Jason Kidd type, not necessarily score first, but can score, rebound, play defense, set up plays, etc...

I still think Tim C has something cooking and there are dates that have to pass before things can be done.

[Norseman79]

Saying there is no difference between a 37 year old Mike Conley and a starting quality PG is like saying DDV is as talented as Ant or maybe even more talented. It is just nonsensical. To even suggest that 37 year old Mike is the pinnacle is just not a good faith discussion. The point being made is with a proper PG running a proper system, we can handle the pressure better and cut down on turnovers. The flaws are with both the player and the system. Either you believe Finch is not good enough at coaching to properly utilize a solid starting PG, or you believe a chaotic approach is superior to the alternative which is consistently employed by champions to win championships. Either way you cannot account for teams needing PGs to win the last game of the year.

Just wondering if our point guard issue actually cost us some free agent signings? Does anyone really want to play with Ant and Randle? You are not going to have many touches and expected to play defense. I wish Joe Smith is still around.

I think the bigger issue is Dilly. If TC missed on Dilly after trading an unprotected first and top 1 protected swap that would be bad for his reputation. Therefore, TC is likely to have Finch give him a real chance (or several.) This plus Mike means playing time is not a given for anyone (remember that Finch plays favorites and Mike is gonna be a favorite.) So yes, it is very possible that the money crunch, opportunity crunch, and situation worked against us.

While this could be true, it would say a lot about Tim if he sees something isn't what he thought it would be and then pivots quickly to minimize loss.

[winforlose]

Just wondering if our point guard issue actually cost us some free agent signings? Does anyone really want to play with Ant and Randle? You are not going to have many touches and expected to play defense. I wish Joe Smith is still around.

I think the bigger issue is Dilly. If TC missed on Dilly after trading an unprotected first and top 1 protected swap that would be bad for his reputation. Therefore, TC is likely to have Finch give him a real chance (or several.) This plus Mike means playing time is not a given for anyone (remember that Finch plays favorites and Mike is gonna be a favorite.) So yes, it is very possible that the money crunch, opportunity crunch, and situation worked against us.

While this could be true, it would say a lot about Tim if he sees something isn't what he thought it would be and then pivots quickly to minimize loss.

He already did that with WMJ. To be honest TC is really lucky that Joan looks like he might pan out. TSJ fell due to the false allegation, and beyond that not many of TCs picks have worked out here. Kessler is the most successful and he sent him to Utah. I think TC will over invest in Dilly, but I could be wrong.

[minimus]

Read on Twitter

Couple of overreactions:

1) Nique Clifford is a real deal. Looks like NBA rotation player

2) I like Tyrese Proctor

3) is Ryan Nembhard the best pass first PG of the draft?

Where would Dilly rank on this?

As well as I understand, he is below TJ

[A1FromDay1]

How He Ranks Among Second-Year Players, per ChatGPT

Here's a comparison of Dillingham with top sophomore standouts:

Terrence Shannon Jr. – Leading the way with elite scoring, physicality, and defense

Ron Holland, Reed Sheppard, Tristan da Silva, Ajay Mitchell, Devin Carter, Kyle Filipowski – All praised for scoring, athleticism, shooting, or versatility
SBNation.com

Where Dillingham fits in:
He’s certainly among the top 3–5 sophomores based on overall impact. His latest box scores match or beat many of the players listed by SBNation and ESPN. He might currently sit just behind Shannon Jr., but he’s clearly in that next tier of impact players. Minnesota fans likely feel confident he's edging toward a rotation role—especially with Mike Conley aging and Conley plans not being centered around him


Summary
Player Notes
Terrence Shannon Jr. Top sophomore—dominant two-way performance
Rob Dillingham Consistent playmaking and scoring—23/7/7 game shows all-around growth
Ron Holland et al. Have shined with scoring and shooting, but Dillingham’s role creation stands out

Bottom line: Dillingham is a near-top-tier sophomore in Vegas Summer League and belongs in the same conversation as Shannon Jr., Sheppard, and Holland. He may rank #2 to #4 among second-year players right now, especially due to his facilitation and leadership in key moments.

[Norseman79]

How He Ranks Among Second-Year Players, per ChatGPT

Here's a comparison of Dillingham with top sophomore standouts:

Terrence Shannon Jr. – Leading the way with elite scoring, physicality, and defense

Ron Holland, Reed Sheppard, Tristan da Silva, Ajay Mitchell, Devin Carter, Kyle Filipowski – All praised for scoring, athleticism, shooting, or versatility
SBNation.com

Where Dillingham fits in:
He’s certainly among the top 3–5 sophomores based on overall impact. His latest box scores match or beat many of the players listed by SBNation and ESPN. He might currently sit just behind Shannon Jr., but he’s clearly in that next tier of impact players. Minnesota fans likely feel confident he's edging toward a rotation role—especially with Mike Conley aging and Conley plans not being centered around him


Summary
Player Notes
Terrence Shannon Jr. Top sophomore—dominant two-way performance
Rob Dillingham Consistent playmaking and scoring—23/7/7 game shows all-around growth
Ron Holland et al. Have shined with scoring and shooting, but Dillingham’s role creation stands out

Bottom line: Dillingham is a near-top-tier sophomore in Vegas Summer League and belongs in the same conversation as Shannon Jr., Sheppard, and Holland. He may rank #2 to #4 among second-year players right now, especially due to his facilitation and leadership in key moments.

I was referring to using the criteria in the box that the previous poster had shared from Twitter. If this is according to that, cool.

[A1FromDay1]

How He Ranks Among Second-Year Players, per ChatGPT

Here's a comparison of Dillingham with top sophomore standouts:

Terrence Shannon Jr. – Leading the way with elite scoring, physicality, and defense

Ron Holland, Reed Sheppard, Tristan da Silva, Ajay Mitchell, Devin Carter, Kyle Filipowski – All praised for scoring, athleticism, shooting, or versatility
SBNation.com

Where Dillingham fits in:
He’s certainly among the top 3–5 sophomores based on overall impact. His latest box scores match or beat many of the players listed by SBNation and ESPN. He might currently sit just behind Shannon Jr., but he’s clearly in that next tier of impact players. Minnesota fans likely feel confident he's edging toward a rotation role—especially with Mike Conley aging and Conley plans not being centered around him


Summary
Player Notes
Terrence Shannon Jr. Top sophomore—dominant two-way performance
Rob Dillingham Consistent playmaking and scoring—23/7/7 game shows all-around growth
Ron Holland et al. Have shined with scoring and shooting, but Dillingham’s role creation stands out

Bottom line: Dillingham is a near-top-tier sophomore in Vegas Summer League and belongs in the same conversation as Shannon Jr., Sheppard, and Holland. He may rank #2 to #4 among second-year players right now, especially due to his facilitation and leadership in key moments.

I was referring to using the criteria in the box that the previous poster had shared from Twitter. If this is according to that, cool.

I tried to, but couldn't determine the criteria, so this is all i got

[Worm Guts]

Wolves playing the Rockets, most of the players that are going to be on the roster are sitting. Zikarsky is the only one playing.

[winforlose]

Wolves playing the Rockets, most of the players that are going to be on the roster are sitting. Zikarsky is the only one playing.

Not starting Rocco was both confusing and very telling.