[Krawczynski] Alex Rodriguez and Marc Lore in serious talks to become the next owners of the Minnesota Timberwolves

[guest81]

I don’t know. I don’t think he was taking advantage of Joe Smith with that deal. It seemed like the league was Ok with it as a wink and handshake deal. Glen was just dumb enough to put it in writing.

I mean he was taking advantage of the salary cap. Just goes to the intelligence of Taylor that he did it with Joe Smith, instead of an actual superstar player. Obviously the league wasn't ok with it as stern gave the wolves the death penalty

Everyone knew what was happening when it happened. There was no penalty until it was found in writing, and obviously they have to because they can’t allow such blatant circumvention of the salary cap. I just think it was so freaking stupid more than anything.
Calling it the death penalty is a little ridiculous though.

I mean yea there was no penalty until proof was found? Duh. Of course it was stupid. They lost 5 first round picks, I mean sounds like a death penalty to me.

[KGdaBom]

Well the joe Smith thing was literally snake like. He also had thrown the best player in franchise history under the bus by saying he dogged it. Probably went back on a deal with kg after flip died is pretty snakelike. McHale has apparently called him snake like as well

First of all that deal was McHale's idea. Do you even know what was in that "illegal" agreement. It was things like if you make all NBA and the Wolves win the championship we will give you a big raise? Of course they would. They were agreeing to do what they obviously would have done. Not snakelike to me, but maybe to you.

It was both their ideas. Both Glen and McHale were suspended. How would you feel if the Lakers told ant to sign with them for league minimum so he could play with LeBron and ad then get paid down the road?

Once again all that was in that illegal contract was we would give him a raise IF and only IF he performed spectacularly. That's something we would have done whether it was written down or not. Nope, not snakelike to me. Just kind of stupid.

[KGdaBom]

He asked Joe Smith to take less money so they could keep his bird rights so they can pay him more later. Trying to circumvent the league? Does snakelike mean something else to you?

The illegal contract stipulated they would give him a raise if he made all NBA and the Wolves won the championship. Duh. Water is wet, and when not cloudy the sky is blue. Not snakelike to me. Just stupid to put it in writing.

What are you talking about? They asked him to sign 3 1 year deals so they could get his bird rights so they could go over the cap to sign him to a larger deal.

What I remember about the written deal is it had stipulations about the Wolves success and Joe's personal success. They were only offering him a raise if he met those objectives. I could be wrong, but that's what I remember.

[shrink]

I don’t know. I don’t think he was taking advantage of Joe Smith with that deal. It seemed like the league was Ok with it as a wink and handshake deal. Glen was just dumb enough to put it in writing.

I mean he was taking advantage of the salary cap. Just goes to the intelligence of Taylor that he did it with Joe Smith, instead of an actual superstar player. Obviously the league wasn't ok with it as stern gave the wolves the death penalty

Everyone knew what was happening when it happened. There was no penalty until it was found in writing, and obviously they have to because they can’t allow such blatant circumvention of the salary cap. I just think it was so freaking stupid more than anything.
Calling it the death penalty is a little ridiculous though.

That’s how I saw it too. The Wolves offered to pay Joe Smith the most possible under the CBA, but were limited for one year by the rules. Smith could have gotten more signing elsewhere, so McHale and Taylor promised if he took an under-market contract for one season, they would pay him well the following year. And while this stuff goes on all the time, McHale and Taylor gave Smith that guarantee in writing.

This is a big deal for the NBA. The entire system is based on the CBA’s financial restrictions, and the assumption that players will sign contracts that maximize their earning potential. If players are intentionally signing for less, based on future contracts or incentive, it messes up parity between teams. If every team has a payroll of $150 mil, we want them to have $150 mil in talent to make games competitive. However, imagine if all teams were competing for All Stars, bidding against each other, but the stars all agreed to play for the Lakers for one year, for a tenth of their market value, but a big bonus later, they would have an unfair amount of talent.

You’re right, Joe Smith was not the caliber of player to do this with, but the NBA had to show it would come down hard, if other owners got caught. Non-FA destinations like MIN would be even more out of luck. This was a dumb move, and fully worthy of fan criticism (though I’d place the bulk of the blame on the GM for knowing the rules, not the owner). But it was hardly snake-like, the opposite in fact, because Taylor was guaranteeing Smith a payday, and willing to put it in writing.

[guest81]

I mean he was taking advantage of the salary cap. Just goes to the intelligence of Taylor that he did it with Joe Smith, instead of an actual superstar player. Obviously the league wasn't ok with it as stern gave the wolves the death penalty

Everyone knew what was happening when it happened. There was no penalty until it was found in writing, and obviously they have to because they can’t allow such blatant circumvention of the salary cap. I just think it was so freaking stupid more than anything.
Calling it the death penalty is a little ridiculous though.

That’s how I saw it too. The Wolves offered to pay Joe Smith the most possible under the CBA, but were limited for one year by the rules. Smith could have gotten more signing elsewhere, so McHale and Taylor promised if he took an under-market contract for one season, they would pay him well the following year. And while this stuff goes on all the time, McHale and Taylor have Smith that guarantee in writing.

This is a big deal for the NBA. The entire system is based on the CBA’s financial restrictions expecting players to sign contracts that maximize their earning potential. If players are intentionally signing for less, based on future contracts or incentive, it messes up parity between teams. For example, if everyone was competing for All Stars, bidding against each other, but they all agreed to play for the Lakers for one year, for a tenth of their market value, they would have an unfair amount of talent.

You’re right, Joe Smith was not the caliber of player to do this with, but the NBA had to show it would come down hard, if other owners got caught. Non-FA destinations like MIN would be even more out of luck. This was a dumb move, and fully worthy of fan criticism (though I’d place the bulk of the blame on the GM for knowing the rules, not the owner). But it was hardly snake-like, the opposite in fact, because Taylor was guaranteeing Smith a payday, and willing to put it in writing.

I mean, if you replaced the wolves with the Lakers, and changed Joe Smith to LeBron James, you'd definitely call it snake like

[shrink]

Everyone knew what was happening when it happened. There was no penalty until it was found in writing, and obviously they have to because they can’t allow such blatant circumvention of the salary cap. I just think it was so freaking stupid more than anything.
Calling it the death penalty is a little ridiculous though.

That’s how I saw it too. The Wolves offered to pay Joe Smith the most possible under the CBA, but were limited for one year by the rules. Smith could have gotten more signing elsewhere, so McHale and Taylor promised if he took an under-market contract for one season, they would pay him well the following year. And while this stuff goes on all the time, McHale and Taylor have Smith that guarantee in writing.

This is a big deal for the NBA. The entire system is based on the CBA’s financial restrictions expecting players to sign contracts that maximize their earning potential. If players are intentionally signing for less, based on future contracts or incentive, it messes up parity between teams. For example, if everyone was competing for All Stars, bidding against each other, but they all agreed to play for the Lakers for one year, for a tenth of their market value, they would have an unfair amount of talent.

You’re right, Joe Smith was not the caliber of player to do this with, but the NBA had to show it would come down hard, if other owners got caught. Non-FA destinations like MIN would be even more out of luck. This was a dumb move, and fully worthy of fan criticism (though I’d place the bulk of the blame on the GM for knowing the rules, not the owner). But it was hardly snake-like, the opposite in fact, because Taylor was guaranteeing Smith a payday, and willing to put it in writing.

I mean, if you replaced the wolves with the Lakers, and changed Joe Smith to LeBron James, you'd definitely call it snake like

I am not following you at all. You think it would be snakelike to .. LeBron? He gets paid, just later.

The league? These deals happen, but are wink-wink. It’s why Harden was so mad this year with PHI.

The NBA doesn’t enforce stuff unless the teams are incredibly blatant about breaking the rules. For example, last year CHI lost a second round pick for signing a free agent at 12:01, even though they weren’t allowed to have contact with him until 12:00. If teams put this stuff in writing, they can get nailed.

[guest81]

The illegal contract stipulated they would give him a raise if he made all NBA and the Wolves won the championship. Duh. Water is wet, and when not cloudy the sky is blue. Not snakelike to me. Just stupid to put it in writing.

What are you talking about? They asked him to sign 3 1 year deals so they could get his bird rights so they could go over the cap to sign him to a larger deal.

What I remember about the written deal is it had stipulations about the Wolves success and Joe's personal success. They were only offering him a raise if he met those objectives. I could be wrong, but that's what I remember.

No, those things are in contracts all the time, the joe Smith deal was completely different

[wolves_89]

I have zero issue with Glen having seller's remorse. He's losing a billion dollars on the sale based on current valuation. If A Rod and Lore have defaulted on the purchase agreement Glen is doing what any reasonable businessman would do. Terminate the purchase.

I feel the same way. Taylor’s motivations aren’t relevant to his or Lore’s actions and the contract, and just something to rile up fans.

In fact, I wonder if an arbiter is going to split the baby down the middle, and say, “ARod and Lore, we’ll look past all this BS and your funding, and you can be owner if you pay 40% of the current value of the team - up front. And Taylor, you can’t cancel the sale, but have to accept ARod and Lore’s market value offer.”

That would be good for the fans, right? Would Lore and ARod accept that, “because they want to do what’s best for the fans?” And could these self-claimed rich guys even afford to buy at market price?

I don't see much chance that the terms of the original contract get modified in arbitration. At this point there are two incompatible views on the situation and the arbiter is going to have to pick whichever the evidence says is the most valid.

[BlacJacMac]

The illegal contract stipulated they would give him a raise if he made all NBA and the Wolves won the championship. Duh. Water is wet, and when not cloudy the sky is blue. Not snakelike to me. Just stupid to put it in writing.

What are you talking about? They asked him to sign 3 1 year deals so they could get his bird rights so they could go over the cap to sign him to a larger deal.

What I remember about the written deal is it had stipulations about the Wolves success and Joe's personal success. They were only offering him a raise if he met those objectives. I could be wrong, but that's what I remember.

You are.

Shrink's account is what happened.

That's why we lost 5 (initially, but reduced to 3) 1st round picks. As harsh of a penalty as we've seen for an illegal contract.

[guest81]

That’s how I saw it too. The Wolves offered to pay Joe Smith the most possible under the CBA, but were limited for one year by the rules. Smith could have gotten more signing elsewhere, so McHale and Taylor promised if he took an under-market contract for one season, they would pay him well the following year. And while this stuff goes on all the time, McHale and Taylor have Smith that guarantee in writing.

This is a big deal for the NBA. The entire system is based on the CBA’s financial restrictions expecting players to sign contracts that maximize their earning potential. If players are intentionally signing for less, based on future contracts or incentive, it messes up parity between teams. For example, if everyone was competing for All Stars, bidding against each other, but they all agreed to play for the Lakers for one year, for a tenth of their market value, they would have an unfair amount of talent.

You’re right, Joe Smith was not the caliber of player to do this with, but the NBA had to show it would come down hard, if other owners got caught. Non-FA destinations like MIN would be even more out of luck. This was a dumb move, and fully worthy of fan criticism (though I’d place the bulk of the blame on the GM for knowing the rules, not the owner). But it was hardly snake-like, the opposite in fact, because Taylor was guaranteeing Smith a payday, and willing to put it in writing.

I mean, if you replaced the wolves with the Lakers, and changed Joe Smith to LeBron James, you'd definitely call it snake like

I am not following you at all. You think it would be snakelike to .. LeBron? He gets paid, just later.

The league? These deals happen, but are wink-wink. It’s why Harden was so mad this year with PHI.

It's snakelike to the league. Yes the James harden thing was snakelike, but unlike the wolves, there was no concrete proof

[KGdaBom]

What are you talking about? They asked him to sign 3 1 year deals so they could get his bird rights so they could go over the cap to sign him to a larger deal.

What I remember about the written deal is it had stipulations about the Wolves success and Joe's personal success. They were only offering him a raise if he met those objectives. I could be wrong, but that's what I remember.

No, those things are in contracts all the time, the joe Smith deal was completely different

I think you're wrong. All those things were in the "illegal" contract.

[KGdaBom]

What are you talking about? They asked him to sign 3 1 year deals so they could get his bird rights so they could go over the cap to sign him to a larger deal.

What I remember about the written deal is it had stipulations about the Wolves success and Joe's personal success. They were only offering him a raise if he met those objectives. I could be wrong, but that's what I remember.

You are.

Shrink's account is what happened.

That's why we lost 5 (initially, but reduced to 3) 1st round picks. As harsh of a penalty as we've seen for an illegal contract.

The reason we lost 5 is that David Stern got pissed off when we just signed Joe Smith again and didn't bow down to him and beg forgiveness.

[guest81]

What I remember about the written deal is it had stipulations about the Wolves success and Joe's personal success. They were only offering him a raise if he met those objectives. I could be wrong, but that's what I remember.

No, those things are in contracts all the time, the joe Smith deal was completely different

I think you're wrong. All those things were in the "illegal" contract.

Ant has a clause in his contract that pays him more if he makes all NBA. Not illegal. If the wolves asked him to take the minimum so they could spend elsewhere and pay him down the road, that is illegal. Do you understand?

[KGdaBom]

No, those things are in contracts all the time, the joe Smith deal was completely different

I think you're wrong. All those things were in the "illegal" contract.

Ant has a clause in his contract that pays him more if he makes all NBA. Not illegal. If the wolves asked him to take the minimum so they could spend elsewhere and pay him down the road, that is illegal. Do you understand?

I totally 1000% understand that. But it was a contract signed for the future that made it illegal. There were stipulations in it based on Joe's personal success and the success of the Wolves.

[Klomp]

The reason we lost 5 is that David Stern got pissed off when we just signed Joe Smith again and didn't bow down to him and beg forgiveness.

And to complete the circle, the bolded is the feud we have between Taylor and Lore/Rodriguez. Taylor got pissed and is "punishing" Lore and Rodriguez.

[KGdaBom]

The reason we lost 5 is that David Stern got pissed off when we just signed Joe Smith again and didn't bow down to him and beg forgiveness.

And to complete the circle, the bolded is the feud we have between Taylor and Lore/Rodriguez. Taylor got pissed and is "punishing" Lore and Rodriguez.

Taylor might be pissed about all the shenanigans that Lore and A Rod were pulling, but primarily IMO it was a simple business decision. He felt they were in breach of the purchase agreement and since the Wolves have appreciated so much in value it made sense to exercise his right to terminate the purchase. We will find out in arbitration/Court if Glen overstepped his rights

[BlacJacMac]

I think you're wrong. All those things were in the "illegal" contract.

Ant has a clause in his contract that pays him more if he makes all NBA. Not illegal. If the wolves asked him to take the minimum so they could spend elsewhere and pay him down the road, that is illegal. Do you understand?

I totally 1000% understand that. But it was a contract signed for the future that made it illegal. There were stipulations in it based on Joe's personal success and the success of the Wolves.

No.

It wasn't the contract that we signed him to that was illegal. It was putting in writing that if he accepted the small contracts, we'd pay him a bigger one when we could.

We did not get busted for signing him to an illegal contract. We got busted when the NBA found out we promised him a future deal in writing to circumvent the CBA.

Following the 1999 NBA lockout, he signed a suspiciously low one-year, $1.75 million deal with the Timberwolves, raising eyebrows in the league.

The NBA found out about an under-the-table deal between Smith and the Timberwolves, involving him signing three consecutive minimal one-year deals. This arrangement allowed the team to acquire his Bird rights and eventually exceed the salary cap to sign him to a more lucrative deal.

[Klomp]

Doing something "under the table" is the very definition of snake-like.

[KGdaBom]

Ant has a clause in his contract that pays him more if he makes all NBA. Not illegal. If the wolves asked him to take the minimum so they could spend elsewhere and pay him down the road, that is illegal. Do you understand?

I totally 1000% understand that. But it was a contract signed for the future that made it illegal. There were stipulations in it based on Joe's personal success and the success of the Wolves.

No.

It wasn't the contract that we signed him to that was illegal. It was putting in writing that if he accepted the small contracts, we'd pay him a bigger one when we could.

We did not get busted for signing him to an illegal contract. We got busted when the NBA found out we promised him a future deal in writing to circumvent the CBA.

Following the 1999 NBA lockout, he signed a suspiciously low one-year, $1.75 million deal with the Timberwolves, raising eyebrows in the league.

The NBA found out about an under-the-table deal between Smith and the Timberwolves, involving him signing three consecutive minimal one-year deals. This arrangement allowed the team to acquire his Bird rights and eventually exceed the salary cap to sign him to a more lucrative deal.

We had a contract written for the future stipulating we would give him x amount of dollars if he met y conditions. Are you saying that is incorrect.

[BlacJacMac]

Yes. I’m saying that is incorrect.

We told him if he signed 3 consecutive tiny 1 year deals, we’d sign him to a massive deal once we had his Bird Rights.