Trade Talk (Part Four)

[Mattya]

I appreciate your enthusiasm for Wiseman who is easily my favorite player in this draft.
Trading for Collins will allow us to draft Okoro who is supposed to be an incredible defender at both the SF and PF. Defense solved. Offense is still more important than defense. This has been fun to think about, but it's never going to happen anyway and we are probably drafting Edwards so however good Wiseman may be we will probably be seeing him do that for the Warriors.

You think Okoro solves our defense? Especially after adding Collins? That is 4 bad defenders in the starting lineup and a 6’6 rookie SF. I’m pretty low on Okoro so I don’t see that at all.

You keep saying that offense is more important than defense. You do realize Wiseman isn’t a scrub on offense right? I personally don’t know how teams are going to stop him on lobs if he is on the Wolves or Warriors. If he develops a 3 point shot we would lose any trade that has been proposed so far.

Once again I appreciate your enthusiasm for Wiseman. However, you are acting like he is the second coming of Hakeem Olajuwon only taller. I don't have that much enthusiasm for him. No way in Hell does Atlanta gives us Collins and 6, but if they did I'd be dancing naked....
In my bedroom. Not anywhere somebody could see me.

I didn’t say he was the second coming of Hakeem. If he was the second coming if Hakeem, you could offer me a team full of John Collins and a bench full of #6 picks and I would still decline.

I just see a rare combination of athletic ability in a 7’1 236 lb frame. How many bigs are as big and athletic and agile as him? Gobert, McGee, Embiid? While being skilled?

[KGdaBom]

You think Okoro solves our defense? Especially after adding Collins? That is 4 bad defenders in the starting lineup and a 6’6 rookie SF. I’m pretty low on Okoro so I don’t see that at all.

You keep saying that offense is more important than defense. You do realize Wiseman isn’t a scrub on offense right? I personally don’t know how teams are going to stop him on lobs if he is on the Wolves or Warriors. If he develops a 3 point shot we would lose any trade that has been proposed so far.

Once again I appreciate your enthusiasm for Wiseman. However, you are acting like he is the second coming of Hakeem Olajuwon only taller. I don't have that much enthusiasm for him. No way in Hell does Atlanta gives us Collins and 6, but if they did I'd be dancing naked....
In my bedroom. Not anywhere somebody could see me.

I didn’t say he was the second coming of Hakeem. If he was the second coming if Hakeem, you could offer me a team full of John Collins and a bench full of #6 picks and I would still decline.

I just see a rare combination of athletic ability in a 7’1 236 lb frame. How many bigs are as big and athletic and agile as him? Gobert, McGee, Embiid? While being skilled?

He's athletic and somewhat skilled. Rumor has it he has a decent mid range jump shot. From what I heard he was 247, He could possibly be very good. Collins is a borderline proven young star in the league. Pick 6 according to many will be about as good as pick one in this years draft. It's not going to happen anyway. It was fun discussing it, but until a trade is made I'm not going to get into it anymore. At least not today.

[Mattya]

Once again I appreciate your enthusiasm for Wiseman. However, you are acting like he is the second coming of Hakeem Olajuwon only taller. I don't have that much enthusiasm for him. No way in Hell does Atlanta gives us Collins and 6, but if they did I'd be dancing naked....
In my bedroom. Not anywhere somebody could see me.

I didn’t say he was the second coming of Hakeem. If he was the second coming if Hakeem, you could offer me a team full of John Collins and a bench full of #6 picks and I would still decline.

I just see a rare combination of athletic ability in a 7’1 236 lb frame. How many bigs are as big and athletic and agile as him? Gobert, McGee, Embiid? While being skilled?

He's athletic and somewhat skilled. Rumor has it he has a decent mid range jump shot. From what I heard he was 247, He could possibly be very good. Collins is a borderline proven young star in the league. Pick 6 according to many will be about as good as pick one in this years draft. It's not going to happen anyway. It was fun discussing it, but until a trade is made I'm not going to get into it anymore. At least not today.

I think 4-8 is wide open and 9-20 is wide open. The gaps between those categories is pretty large if you ask me. John Collin good young player about to be paid large. Not the game changer or as valuable a player as we should want or need in exchange for the #1 pick.

[shrink]

I didn’t say he was the second coming of Hakeem. If he was the second coming if Hakeem, you could offer me a team full of John Collins and a bench full of #6 picks and I would still decline.

I just see a rare combination of athletic ability in a 7’1 236 lb frame. How many bigs are as big and athletic and agile as him? Gobert, McGee, Embiid? While being skilled?

He's athletic and somewhat skilled. Rumor has it he has a decent mid range jump shot. From what I heard he was 247, He could possibly be very good. Collins is a borderline proven young star in the league. Pick 6 according to many will be about as good as pick one in this years draft. It's not going to happen anyway. It was fun discussing it, but until a trade is made I'm not going to get into it anymore. At least not today.

I think 4-8 is wide open and 9-20 is wide open. The gaps between those categories is pretty large if you ask me. John Collin good young player about to be paid large.. Not the game changer or as valuable a player as we should want or need in exchange for the #1 pick.

This is my answer too.

It’s not that John Collins isn’t a good player. He is (though I think he would struggle with the defensive demands our team needs). The problem is that he’s about to get paid. Like all of these “good” players seeking a max or near max deal, they suck away all their trade value with the contract. For us, would you think a Big Three of KAT, Russell and Collins is a contender? It needs to be, since we won’t have the money for another big name player.

Said a different way, it isn’t about whether you’d get more production from Collins or the #1. It’s about whether you’d get more production from the Collins or the #1 PLUS an $18 mil free agent.

Finally, while Collins is a good player, his ceiling is not “Star.” His floor is much higher than the pick, but the pick has a chance to be a star. If you are giving up the upside chance, you shouldn’t also be giving up all the finances too.

Unless a player’s salary is limited artificially (by rookie scale or the max rules), any time a player goes through free agency he will be paid up to the highest market, and it steals most of their trade value.

[TheProdigy]

Once again I appreciate your enthusiasm for Wiseman. However, you are acting like he is the second coming of Hakeem Olajuwon only taller. I don't have that much enthusiasm for him. No way in Hell does Atlanta gives us Collins and 6, but if they did I'd be dancing naked....
In my bedroom. Not anywhere somebody could see me.

I didn’t say he was the second coming of Hakeem. If he was the second coming if Hakeem, you could offer me a team full of John Collins and a bench full of #6 picks and I would still decline.

I just see a rare combination of athletic ability in a 7’1 236 lb frame. How many bigs are as big and athletic and agile as him? Gobert, McGee, Embiid? While being skilled?

He's athletic and somewhat skilled. Rumor has it he has a decent mid range jump shot. From what I heard he was 247, He could possibly be very good. Collins is a borderline proven young star in the league. Pick 6 according to many will be about as good as pick one in this years draft. It's not going to happen anyway. It was fun discussing it, but until a trade is made I'm not going to get into it anymore. At least not today.

Above all else, we need to start acquiring guys that can play defense or at least have the potential to play defense. I love the #1 pick for #3 and PJ Washington idea. I would probably throw in the #17 pick to make it happen.

A secondary need for this team is someone who can attack the rim and distribute. Ben Simmons would fit this team perfectly. With our floor spacing, I think he could be Giannis-lite for us. If we can get him without trading KAT, DLo, or Beasley, we have to put everything else on the table.

[KGdaBom]

He's athletic and somewhat skilled. Rumor has it he has a decent mid range jump shot. From what I heard he was 247, He could possibly be very good. Collins is a borderline proven young star in the league. Pick 6 according to many will be about as good as pick one in this years draft. It's not going to happen anyway. It was fun discussing it, but until a trade is made I'm not going to get into it anymore. At least not today.

I think 4-8 is wide open and 9-20 is wide open. The gaps between those categories is pretty large if you ask me. John Collin good young player about to be paid large.. Not the game changer or as valuable a player as we should want or need in exchange for the #1 pick.

This is my answer too.

It’s not that John Collins isn’t a good player. He is (though I think he would struggle with the defensive demands our team needs). The problem is that he’s about to get paid. Like all of these “good” players seeking a max or near max deal, they suck away all their trade value with the contract. For us, would you think a Big Three of KAT, Russell and Collins is a contender? It needs to be, since we won’t have the money for another big name player.

Said a different way, it isn’t about whether you’d get more production from Collins or the #1. It’s about whether you’d get more production from the Collins or the #1 PLUS an $18 mil free agent.

Finally, while Collins is a good player, his ceiling is not “Star.” His floor is much higher than the pick, but the pick has a chance to be a star. If you are giving up the upside chance, you shouldn’t also be giving up all the finances too.

Unless a player’s salary is limited artificially (by rookie scale or the max rules), any time a player goes through free agency he will be paid up to the highest market, and it steals most of their trade value.

KAT, Collins, D'Lo, Beasley and Avdija could be a contender. You're acting like KAT Collins and D'Lo would be the only good players we would have.

[Klomp]

A Hornets fan in the general trade board suggested #1 for #3 and Miles Bridges.

I’d do that in a heartbeat

That's tough, and to me would depend on the team's preference from the top three to four prospects. But I think Bridges would be a perfect PF in this system (yes, I said PF everyone because that's what I believe he'd fit in the system as).

[KGdaBom]

A Hornets fan in the general trade board suggested #1 for #3 and Miles Bridges.

I’d do that in a heartbeat

That's tough, and to me would depend on the team's preference from the top three to four prospects. But I think Bridges would be a perfect PF in this system (yes, I said PF everyone because that's what I believe he'd fit in the system as).

He's not a PF. He might be the second biggest player on the court, but he would not be playing PF.
If we make that deal and draft Edwards we would be playing 1-1 2-2s 1-3 and 1-5.

[Klomp]

A Hornets fan in the general trade board suggested #1 for #3 and Miles Bridges.

I’d do that in a heartbeat

That's tough, and to me would depend on the team's preference from the top three to four prospects. But I think Bridges would be a perfect PF in this system (yes, I said PF everyone because that's what I believe he'd fit in the system as).

He's not a PF. He might be the second biggest player on the court, but he would not be playing PF.

Semantics. Call it the second SF if that's more your fancy. I guess the Wolves haven't had a PF on the roster in a season then, and probably won't again next year in your eyes.

[KGdaBom]

That's tough, and to me would depend on the team's preference from the top three to four prospects. But I think Bridges would be a perfect PF in this system (yes, I said PF everyone because that's what I believe he'd fit in the system as).

He's not a PF. He might be the second biggest player on the court, but he would not be playing PF.

Semantics. Call it the second SF if that's more your fancy. I guess the Wolves haven't had a PF on the roster in a season then, and probably won't again next year in your eyes.

He would be the only SF on the court most likely. It would be Russell, Beasley, Edwards SG, Bridges SF, and KAT. No 4 or PF in our starting lineup. I think that lineup would leave us completely unable to defend the interior or rebound. I'd hate it.
I think Layman and Vanderbilt are kind of PFs. Layman can play the SF, but I'd accept him as a PF.

[Neeva]

I hate the 3 with a passion, but since it is a huge part of the game I appreciate how well Collins can shoot it and he's a perfect fit for our 5 out scheme. His offensive efficiency is freaking off the charts. Plus I'm talking about getting pick 6 included in that deal for a rookie with question marks.
Also good D is good, but Offense wins championships IMO. It's the first part of the game to consider when trading or drafting IMO.

So why not get a guy like Wiseman who is going to be an instant lob threat, isn’t a liability at the fre throw line, shows some potential to space the floor while being a potential defensive anchor on the opposite side of the spectrum as Collins. Especially considering Towns’ defensive issues.

Because Collins who is a proven NBA player, plus Avdija, Hayes, Vassell or whoever we can take at 6 will be more beneficial to our team IMO than Wiseman alone. We hope Wiseman can eventually get a good 3 point shot. We already know that Collins has a great 3 point shot. Also Collins is an 80% FT guy so no liability. No guarantee that Wiseman will be better than Collins or the player we pick at 6. Likely we draft Edwards so Wiseman might not even be in the equation.

Only way I would be interested in that trade is it involves a third team ending up with Collins for example.

Knicks get collins, atlanta gets 1, Wolves get , 6,8 and 2021 mavs protected frp.

But I would only consider that if Avdija is available at 6.

[jpatrick]

I guess I haven’t watched a lot of Charlotte but my understanding has been Bridges has been underwhelming. I know he scored 13 a game last year but I got the feeling that was more because he was given minutes/shots, not because he played well (much like Culver scoring 10 for us). Was he great on D or have splash plays that make you think he’s got more to his games?

I liked him somewhat in college as a possible 3 and D wing.

[KGdaBom]

I guess I haven’t watched a lot of Charlotte but my understanding has been Bridges has been underwhelming. I know he scored 13 a game last year but I got the feeling that was more because he was given minutes/shots, not because he played well (much like Culver scoring 10 for us). Was he great on D or have splash plays that make you think he’s got more to his games?

I liked him somewhat in college as a possible 3 and D wing.

I have zero interest in Bridges. If they want #1 offer Washington and 3.

[KGdaBom]

You all can talk yourself into some IMO ridiculous stuff like Collins and 6 isn't enough for 1.

[twolves31]

He's athletic and somewhat skilled. Rumor has it he has a decent mid range jump shot. From what I heard he was 247, He could possibly be very good. Collins is a borderline proven young star in the league. Pick 6 according to many will be about as good as pick one in this years draft. It's not going to happen anyway. It was fun discussing it, but until a trade is made I'm not going to get into it anymore. At least not today.

I think 4-8 is wide open and 9-20 is wide open. The gaps between those categories is pretty large if you ask me. John Collin good young player about to be paid large.. Not the game changer or as valuable a player as we should want or need in exchange for the #1 pick.

This is my answer too.

It’s not that John Collins isn’t a good player. He is (though I think he would struggle with the defensive demands our team needs). The problem is that he’s about to get paid. Like all of these “good” players seeking a max or near max deal, they suck away all their trade value with the contract. For us, would you think a Big Three of KAT, Russell and Collins is a contender? It needs to be, since we won’t have the money for another big name player.

Said a different way, it isn’t about whether you’d get more production from Collins or the #1. It’s about whether you’d get more production from the Collins or the #1 PLUS an $18 mil free agent.

Finally, while Collins is a good player, his ceiling is not “Star.” His floor is much higher than the pick, but the pick has a chance to be a star. If you are giving up the upside chance, you shouldn’t also be giving up all the finances too.

Unless a player’s salary is limited artificially (by rookie scale or the max rules), any time a player goes through free agency he will be paid up to the highest market, and it steals most of their trade value.

Lets not forget the number 1 picks salary is quite high. It might be lower next year if the salary cap falls. But Zion for instance is paid 9.7, 10.2, 10.7, 13.5 per year on his rookie deal. Will Collins be paid more yes, but grabbing a proven player and a a draft pick would be great value in crap shoot draft where we might not be able to work out players because of covid-19. If Rosas thinks his scouts did enough research and he feels confident that one of these players is going to be a star than by all means take that player. Of course Atlanta would never do that trade, so maybe it doesn't matter.

[KGdaBom]

I think 4-8 is wide open and 9-20 is wide open. The gaps between those categories is pretty large if you ask me. John Collin good young player about to be paid large.. Not the game changer or as valuable a player as we should want or need in exchange for the #1 pick.

This is my answer too.

It’s not that John Collins isn’t a good player. He is (though I think he would struggle with the defensive demands our team needs). The problem is that he’s about to get paid. Like all of these “good” players seeking a max or near max deal, they suck away all their trade value with the contract. For us, would you think a Big Three of KAT, Russell and Collins is a contender? It needs to be, since we won’t have the money for another big name player.

Said a different way, it isn’t about whether you’d get more production from Collins or the #1. It’s about whether you’d get more production from the Collins or the #1 PLUS an $18 mil free agent.

Finally, while Collins is a good player, his ceiling is not “Star.” His floor is much higher than the pick, but the pick has a chance to be a star. If you are giving up the upside chance, you shouldn’t also be giving up all the finances too.

Unless a player’s salary is limited artificially (by rookie scale or the max rules), any time a player goes through free agency he will be paid up to the highest market, and it steals most of their trade value.

Lets not forget the number 1 picks salary is quite high. It might be lower next year if the salary cap falls. But Zion for instance is paid 9.7, 10.2, 10.7, 13.5 per year on his rookie deal. Will Collins be paid more yes, but grabbing a proven player and a a draft pick would be great value in crap shoot draft where we might not be able to work out players because of covid-19. If Rosas thinks his scouts did enough research and he feels confident that one of these players is going to be a star than by all means take that player. Of course Atlanta would never do that trade, so maybe it doesn't matter.

We'd be a joke they share with the other GMs if we made that offer.

[shrink]

I think 4-8 is wide open and 9-20 is wide open. The gaps between those categories is pretty large if you ask me. John Collin good young player about to be paid large.. Not the game changer or as valuable a player as we should want or need in exchange for the #1 pick.

This is my answer too.

It’s not that John Collins isn’t a good player. He is (though I think he would struggle with the defensive demands our team needs). The problem is that he’s about to get paid. Like all of these “good” players seeking a max or near max deal, they suck away all their trade value with the contract. For us, would you think a Big Three of KAT, Russell and Collins is a contender? It needs to be, since we won’t have the money for another big name player.

Said a different way, it isn’t about whether you’d get more production from Collins or the #1. It’s about whether you’d get more production from the Collins or the #1 PLUS an $18 mil free agent.

Finally, while Collins is a good player, his ceiling is not “Star.” His floor is much higher than the pick, but the pick has a chance to be a star. If you are giving up the upside chance, you shouldn’t also be giving up all the finances too.

Unless a player’s salary is limited artificially (by rookie scale or the max rules), any time a player goes through free agency he will be paid up to the highest market, and it steals most of their trade value.

Lets not forget the number 1 picks salary is quite high. It might be lower next year if the salary cap falls. But Zion for instance is paid 9.7, 10.2, 10.7, 13.5 per year on his rookie deal. Will Collins be paid more yes, but....

That’s why I mentioned the $18 mil gap.

Yes, Zion made $9.7 in 2020, but a max deal on players with 0-6 years started $28.75. That’s a $19 mil gap, but the fall in the cap I estimated the gap shrinks to $18.

Yes, #1 pick salary is quite high. But it is nowhere close to as high as a new max deal.

[Klomp]

He would be the only SF on the court most likely.

I don't think he'd have to be necessarily. He could easily tandem with Layman for example.

[Klomp]

I guess I haven’t watched a lot of Charlotte but my understanding has been Bridges has been underwhelming. I know he scored 13 a game last year but I got the feeling that was more because he was given minutes/shots, not because he played well (much like Culver scoring 10 for us). Was he great on D or have splash plays that make you think he’s got more to his games?

I personally think he somewhat is in Aaron Gordon's position where people have miscast him as a SF. If he were two inches taller I think people would talk about him like they talk about Gordon.

[Klomp]

Another aspect I think Rosas took from his time in Houston is a willingness to take on "bad" contracts if assets are attached. Now they weren't generally huge deals, but Golden State wanted to rid themselves of the Evans and Spellman deals, which Rosas obliged. We took Turner from Atlanta with the BRK 1st attached too.

It'd be hard for Charlotte to part ways with Washington, but what if Rosas took Batum off their hands? Or even Rozier?