Ben Simmons Thread (READ FIRST POST)

[SO_MONEY]

It is true Beasley value has warts due to his criminal past. Wolves will belittle it — 76ers will highlight it. Wishing and hoping enough time has passed that his value isn’t still affected is nice, just not reality.

You are making two separate points.

1) that his value is decreased due to his criminal issues, it is not. Teams don't care, his contract is really friendly. It is a non-issue.

2) that teams would use his criminal issues as leverage, they would, but ultimately it wouldn't factor in, they would want him or not based on contract value, production, age ect...

His criminal issues are not holding back his trade value. I am all about risk aversion and even I don't worry too much about things like that. Those worries are held by self-righteous people who don't have their jobs held accountable to providing a quality product. Now if there were workplace issues, it would be a different story.

You might not care about past criminal convictions, but sentencing guidelines do care. If he does something stupid again he could be in jail much longer than 78 days and his NBA career might be over. Now I don't know Beasley personally and neither do you. Only those that know will be able to judge if he has a good head on his shoulders, so honestly who cares what some fan with a holier than thou attitude regarding his/her judge of character thinks.

I do know that (1) pointing a gun at a parade of homes tour in Plymouth Minnesota and (2) Beasley cheating on his baby mama with Larsa Pippen and being in the TMZ tabloids raise some red flags, and all things being equal I'd much rather have a comparable player that didn't bring those types of red flags into the locker room. So dust his baggage under the rug if you want, but my guess is other teams aren't as forgiving as you are.

None of that bothers the people you think it bothers, it bothers you or people who can afford to hold some kind of moral high ground.

[Krapinsky]

But it is true.

It is true Beasley value has warts due to his criminal past. Wolves will belittle it — 76ers will highlight it. Wishing and hoping enough time has passed that his value isn’t still affected is nice, just not reality.

i would say it diminishes his value between 1%-5%.

I bet you there are some character-driven teams that might simply take a player like Beasley off their board entirely.

[SO_MONEY]

Beasley's legal stuff is old news over and done with. I don't think most teams care one tiny bit. Maybe Utah.

Even if that was the case (it is not), Morey would be dumbest negotiator ever not to use that in leverage.

Rosas didn’t.

The deal turned out to be good, but I think he should have squeezed him. Rosas didn’t make the Beasley situation, and he had far more leverage. The crime wasn’t old news back then (I believe it happened about a week before he signing), plus back then, no one new how many games Beasley would lose due to NBA suspension and jail time.

It shows just how "powerful" that "leverage" is/was.

[NebWolvesFan]

But it is true.

It is true Beasley value has warts due to his criminal past. Wolves will belittle it — 76ers will highlight it. Wishing and hoping enough time has passed that his value isn’t still affected is nice, just not reality.

i would say it diminishes his value between 1%-5%. He's the best player the Wolves will offer so the 76ers can take him or leave him. Considering the super friends angle Russell won't be offered. If the 76ers pass on Beasley the only way to make salaries match is more or less Prince and Beverley.

For me, Beasley should be held onto until the deadline. His value is way too low now due to off-court issues. He needs to show the league that he can be trusted. He's paid his penalty and now if he can just play basketball for a few months and showcase his skills as an off-the-bench scorer, his value will increase. To me, it's at an all-time low, but he has the skills to increase it substantially in a short period of time.

[Krapinsky]

You are making two separate points.

1) that his value is decreased due to his criminal issues, it is not. Teams don't care, his contract is really friendly. It is a non-issue.

2) that teams would use his criminal issues as leverage, they would, but ultimately it wouldn't factor in, they would want him or not based on contract value, production, age ect...

His criminal issues are not holding back his trade value. I am all about risk aversion and even I don't worry too much about things like that. Those worries are held by self-righteous people who don't have their jobs held accountable to providing a quality product. Now if there were workplace issues, it would be a different story.

You might not care about past criminal convictions, but sentencing guidelines do care. If he does something stupid again he could be in jail much longer than 78 days and his NBA career might be over. Now I don't know Beasley personally and neither do you. Only those that know will be able to judge if he has a good head on his shoulders, so honestly who cares what some fan with a holier than thou attitude regarding his/her judge of character thinks.

I do know that (1) pointing a gun at a parade of homes tour in Plymouth Minnesota and (2) Beasley cheating on his baby mama with Larsa Pippen and being in the TMZ tabloids raise some red flags, and all things being equal I'd much rather have a comparable player that didn't bring those types of red flags into the locker room. So dust his baggage under the rug if you want, but my guess is other teams aren't as forgiving as you are.

None of that bothers the people you think it bothers, it bothers you or people who can afford to hold some kind of moral high ground.

And you know this because you're a mind reader?

If the shoe was on the other foot and Beasley was a 76er and not a Wolf you would be cherry picking everyone of his warts and claiming he had no trade value. [EDIT]

Make the point without the snide remark. -Dome

[KGdaBom]

It is true Beasley value has warts due to his criminal past. Wolves will belittle it — 76ers will highlight it. Wishing and hoping enough time has passed that his value isn’t still affected is nice, just not reality.

i would say it diminishes his value between 1%-5%.

I bet you there are some character-driven teams that might simply take a player like Beasley off their board entirely.

Utah only

[shrink]

We can all pontificate about how character should be an issue, but time and again, we see NBA teams dismiss these issues if they think a player can help them win a few more basketball games. That’s the way the NBA rolls.

I have actually enjoyed pointing this out to other fanbases, when they say, “Well, MY team would never take on a character risk!” When NY fans did it, I pointed to Ray Felton, who the Knicks continued to start after threatening his wife several times with guns. And when DAL fans did it, I asked them how they hired Jason Kidd, after repeated issues of wife beating. LAL fans (and the NBA in general) still love Kobe, after admitting to “accidentally” raping that girl in Colorado. When these fans talk about their team and character, all I do is search the team and crimes. Every team I’ve looked at so far has dismissed character.

I hate what Beasley did, and morally, right after that event, I didn’t want him on my team. However, NBA history shows repeatedly that if a player has talent, teams and fans look the other way. I think these fans act holier-than-thou when it is some other team’s player. He’s scored 20 PPG on 40% 3P for two years, and some of his advanced shooting stats put him in the top 5-10 shooters in the NBA. He has trade value.

[SO_MONEY]

You might not care about past criminal convictions, but sentencing guidelines do care. If he does something stupid again he could be in jail much longer than 78 days and his NBA career might be over. Now I don't know Beasley personally and neither do you. Only those that know will be able to judge if he has a good head on his shoulders, so honestly who cares what some fan with a holier than thou attitude regarding his/her judge of character thinks.

I do know that (1) pointing a gun at a parade of homes tour in Plymouth Minnesota and (2) Beasley cheating on his baby mama with Larsa Pippen and being in the TMZ tabloids raise some red flags, and all things being equal I'd much rather have a comparable player that didn't bring those types of red flags into the locker room. So dust his baggage under the rug if you want, but my guess is other teams aren't as forgiving as you are.

None of that bothers the people you think it bothers, it bothers you or people who can afford to hold some kind of moral high ground.

And you know this because you're a mind reader?

If the shoe was on the other foot and Beasley was a 76er and not a Wolf you would be cherry picking everyone of his warts and claiming he had no trade value. You know how I know this? I've had the displeasure of reading your takes for some time now.

Because I have a background in starting and running businesses and I understand that people are not going to turn down good labor unless there is a direct concern regarding job performance or workplace safety. And even then I would look the other way over past "mistakes" depending on recency. It literally doesn't matter to the people you think it matters to.

And I could do without the unnecessary personal attack. Keep that commentary to yourself, it brings nothing positive to the forum.

[shrink]

Even if that was the case (it is not), Morey would be dumbest negotiator ever not to use that in leverage.

Rosas didn’t.

The deal turned out to be good, but I think he should have squeezed him. Rosas didn’t make the Beasley situation, and he had far more leverage. The crime wasn’t old news back then (I believe it happened about a week before he signing), plus back then, no one new how many games Beasley would lose due to NBA suspension and jail time.

It shows just how "powerful" that "leverage" is/was.

I think it was Rosas’ worst negotiation.

[jpatrick]

Rosas didn’t.

The deal turned out to be good, but I think he should have squeezed him. Rosas didn’t make the Beasley situation, and he had far more leverage. The crime wasn’t old news back then (I believe it happened about a week before he signing), plus back then, no one new how many games Beasley would lose due to NBA suspension and jail time.

It shows just how "powerful" that "leverage" is/was.

I think it was Rosas’ worst negotiation.

I agree with this. I thought he could have squeezed him although with the last year being a team option, it wasn’t that bad. I do wonder how much Klutch being his rep played into the deal. Probably not much, but I get the feeling Klutch has no problems advising his clients to leave or trying to influence their decisions, and they happened to rep young Mr. Edwards.

[Krapinsky]

None of that bothers the people you think it bothers, it bothers you or people who can afford to hold some kind of moral high ground.

And you know this because you're a mind reader?

If the shoe was on the other foot and Beasley was a 76er and not a Wolf you would be cherry picking everyone of his warts and claiming he had no trade value. You know how I know this? I've had the displeasure of reading your takes for some time now.

Because I have a background in starting and running businesses and I understand that people are not going to turn down good labor unless there is a direct concern regarding job performance or workplace safety. And even then I would look the other way over past "mistakes" depending on recency. It literally doesn't matter to the people you think it matters to.

Well every business owner is different. We have business requiring masks be worn during a pandemic and business saying you can't wear masks during a pandemic. Just as we can't agree on this board, you can take it to the bank that not all business owners agree on your view of character in team building. Many of the owners of NBA teams are not progressive minded people like you and me and are rather 70-90 year old guys like Glen Taylor. Maybe just maybe they don't want to pay $16M a year to a guy that is doing jail time in his local community.

The fact of the matter is that NBA players that have run afoul of the law don't have a great track record for prolonged and successful NBA careers. Javaris Crittendon, Gilbert Arenas, Delonte West, JR Rider, Rueben Patterson, etc. I'm sure there are plenty of examples of players that righted the ship after one conviction, but needless to say it's not a group as a whole that anyone would want to be associated with.

I'm as big a proponent of Beasley as anyone on this board, but I'm also a proponent of staying objective when it comes to issues like this.

[SO_MONEY]

And you know this because you're a mind reader?

If the shoe was on the other foot and Beasley was a 76er and not a Wolf you would be cherry picking everyone of his warts and claiming he had no trade value. You know how I know this? I've had the displeasure of reading your takes for some time now.

Because I have a background in starting and running businesses and I understand that people are not going to turn down good labor unless there is a direct concern regarding job performance or workplace safety. And even then I would look the other way over past "mistakes" depending on recency. It literally doesn't matter to the people you think it matters to.

Well every business owner is different. We have business requiring masks be worn during a pandemic and business saying you can't wear masks during a pandemic. Just as we can't agree on this board, you can take it to the bank that not all business owners agree on your view of character in team building. Many of the owners of NBA teams are not progressive minded people like you and me and are rather 70-90 year old guys like Glen Taylor. Maybe just maybe they don't want to pay $16M a year to a guy that is doing jail time in his local community.

The fact of the matter is that NBA players that have run afoul of the law don't have a great track record for prolonged and successful NBA careers. Javaris Crittendon, Gilbert Arenas, Delonte West, JR Rider, Rueben Patterson, etc. I'm sure there are plenty of examples of players that righted the ship after one conviction, but needless to say it's not a group as a whole that anyone would want to be associated with.

I'm as big a proponent of Beasley as anyone on this board, but I'm also a proponent of staying objective when it comes to issues like this.

Arenas and Crittendon was a workplace issue, about as bad as it gets, teams are not going to bring in players or employees like that because it would invite an unsafe work environment without being judicious.

Patterson played 8 years after raping a nanny and an assault. West was bat-s... crazy, still managed to play. Rider continued to play.

I have hired felons with a wide range of charges. If they would be good at their job and don't bring their problems to the office, wouldn't cause the business problems it really isn't important. Theft is a hard one to overlook as are sex offenses, most anything else I wouldn't be quick to dismiss just on their face. And sports teams are far more forgiving than the norm.

[Dewey]

100% believe it has a direct influence on his value, especially if he was the intended “main chip” in the deal versus your typical free agent. Yes this issue can certainly diminish moving forward based on performance and behavior. That’s the chance you take.

Teams will overlook many issues if the player meets a need and other options are minimal. I’ll also add a lot can be made wether or not the player is a potential star, starter, 6th or 7th man, or a mere player adding depth.

With that said, I’d bet Philly would be intrigued by Beasley/RoCo and a pick or two. That would allow them to hedge and a little with bringing back a known contributor and good character guy in the package. I pick or two is frosting.

[Krapinsky]

Rosas didn’t.

The deal turned out to be good, but I think he should have squeezed him. Rosas didn’t make the Beasley situation, and he had far more leverage. The crime wasn’t old news back then (I believe it happened about a week before he signing), plus back then, no one new how many games Beasley would lose due to NBA suspension and jail time.

It shows just how "powerful" that "leverage" is/was.

I think it was Rosas’ worst negotiation.

Well he simultaneously negotiated the Juancho deal...

[Wolveswin]

Even if that was the case (it is not), Morey would be dumbest negotiator ever not to use that in leverage.

Rosas didn’t.

The deal turned out to be good, but I think he should have squeezed him. Rosas didn’t make the Beasley situation, and he had far more leverage. The crime wasn’t old news back then (I believe it happened about a week before he signing), plus back then, no one new how many games Beasley would lose due to NBA suspension and jail time.

It shows just how "powerful" that "leverage" is/was.

Come on now, you have just thrown any objective view we “might” think you have right out the closed window.

You really don’t think negotiating with your own free agent in house (in family) isn’t different than what another team and GM considers?

If you really think Morey is going to be dismissive of Beasley background and be like, “Don’t worry, in the past. After all it wasn’t workplace related. Rosas I give full value for him.” That is as silly as it reads.

[Wolveswin]

It is true Beasley value has warts due to his criminal past. Wolves will belittle it — 76ers will highlight it. Wishing and hoping enough time has passed that his value isn’t still affected is nice, just not reality.

i would say it diminishes his value between 1%-5%. He's the best player the Wolves will offer so the 76ers can take him or leave him. Considering the super friends angle Russell won't be offered. If the 76ers pass on Beasley the only way to make salaries match is more or less Prince and Beverley.

For me, Beasley should be held onto until the deadline. His value is way too low now due to off-court issues. He needs to show the league that he can be trusted. He's paid his penalty and now if he can just play basketball for a few months and showcase his skills as an off-the-bench scorer, his value will increase. To me, it's at an all-time low, but he has the skills to increase it substantially in a short period of time.

This. I think this is how this Beasley value back and forth got started. Can a offer be done without Beasley? Why? Because 76ers won’t value him where he should be (criminal background, health, hasn’t showcased his small sample size of 40% 3PT shooting enough to get max value).

[Wolveswin]

Ideal Wolves POV offer…

Prince + Beverley + Bolmaro + 1sts

3rd team can be added, and of course the amount of 1sts involved is big value stress point.

But if Wolves could run this lineup out there:

Towns
Simmons
McDaniels | Edwards
Edwards | Beasley (6th man)
Russell

Yes, keeping Beasley can pinch the purse, but deal with that latter. Let him showcase, raining down 3’s will only raise his trade value — while he helps make those owed 1sts to 76ers less valuable.

[FinnTheHuman]

Ideal Wolves POV offer…

Prince + Beverley + Bolmaro + 1sts

3rd team can be added, and of course the amount of 1sts involved is big value stress point.

But if Wolves could run this lineup out there:

Towns
Simmons
McDaniels | Edwards
Edwards | Beasley (6th man)
Russell

Yes, keeping Beasley can pinch the purse, but deal with that latter. Let him showcase, raining down 3’s will only raise his trade value — while he helps make those owed 1sts to 76ers less valuable.

I don't see the point in posting fairytale scenarios, Morey would have to be on drugs to accept that offer. We will need to send Beasley or DLo, no other way around it.

[Krapinsky]

100% believe it has a direct influence on his value, especially if he was the intended “main chip” in the deal versus your typical free agent. Yes this issue can certainly diminish moving forward based on performance and behavior. That’s the chance you take.

Teams will overlook many issues if the player meets a need and other options are minimal. I’ll also add a lot can be made wether or not the player is a potential star, starter, 6th or 7th man, or a mere player adding depth.

With that said, I’d bet Philly would be intrigued by Beasley/RoCo and a pick or two. That would allow them to hedge and a little with bringing back a known contributor and good character guy in the package. I pick or two is frosting.

Of course it does and to claim it doesn't is naive or simply disingenuous. Even a casual observer of sports gets wind of how potential character concerns impact a player's stature. I've watched enough NBA and NFL drafts to see players fall on draft day because of character concerns. Dan Marino, Randy Moss, Laremy Tunsil, were some of the more memorable ones. There is certainly a risk/reward analysis that every team does and some teams can stomach more risk than others.

[Wolveswin]

Ideal Wolves POV offer…

Prince + Beverley + Bolmaro + 1sts

3rd team can be added, and of course the amount of 1sts involved is big value stress point.

But if Wolves could run this lineup out there:

Towns
Simmons
McDaniels | Edwards
Edwards | Beasley (6th man)
Russell

Yes, keeping Beasley can pinch the purse, but deal with that latter. Let him showcase, raining down 3’s will only raise his trade value — while he helps make those owed 1sts to 76ers less valuable.

I don't see the point in posting fairytale scenarios, Morey would have to be on drugs to accept that offer. We will need to send Beasley or DLo, no other way around it.

Not true.

1) Assuming Russell is quickly off table. Broship.
2) If as discussed above, Beasley and his past lower Morey’s evaluation of him, he is now removed.
3) McDaniels or Bolmaro are the youth sent (if not both), but if win-now is the goal for Rosas, McDaniels stays, Bolmaro goes (to 3rd team for a 1st).
4) Two Wolves 1sts and two swaps would be the starting offer with such a deal. But Rosas would have to be ok stretching to 3x 1sts (ideally while adding some increased protections).